Virtually no one thinks Trump has discouraged white supremacists - Polidicks

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/trump-discourage-white-supremacists-poll/index.html[/url] [quote]A mere 3% of American voters in a new Quinnipiac poll released Wednesday say Trump's actions as president have discouraged white supremacists.[/quote] [quote]Just more than a third of American voters (35%) say Trump hasn't had an impact on white supremacist groups, and six in 10 voters (59%) say he's encouraged them. A majority of that group says he's encouraged them deliberately rather than accidentally.[/quote]

Does this take into consideration the people that dance around the subject of white supremacists and just say "but what about the left?"

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;52607080]Does this take into consideration the people that dance around the subject of white supremacists and just say "but what about the left?"[/QUOTE] What are you talking about you can't be racist unless you say "nigger" or "spic", I haven't seen trump or any of his supporters on FP do that so they're all great diversity loving people.

Frankly, I'd like to know in what kind of reality those 3% live.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52607183]Frankly, I'd like to know in what kind of reality those 3% live.[/QUOTE] one where the embodiment of 'evil businessman' is supposed to make the economy better for everyone

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52607183]Frankly, I'd like to know in what kind of reality those 3% live.[/QUOTE] To be fair the poll does have an error margin of 3.1%, it's possible that no one thinks Trump has discouraged the Nazis.

[QUOTE=Paramud;52607331]To be fair the poll does have an error margin of 3.1%, it's possible that no one thinks Trump has discouraged the Nazis.[/QUOTE] Could be lower than 3%, but it can't be no one, if only for the fact those 3% result from actual responses.

You're talking about people with such an extreme and deeply held belief in racism, racial superiority, and nationalism that they've held more-than-likely before Trump became president. I doubt there's really anything that could be said to dissuade such ignorance.

[QUOTE=-Ben_Wolfe-;52607451]You're talking about people with such an extreme and deeply held belief in racism, racial superiority, and nationalism that they've held more-than-likely before Trump became president. I doubt there's really anything that could be said to dissuade such ignorance.[/QUOTE] There's a difference between dissuading and discouraging them. You can say "hey, you probably shouldn't lynch blacks" without convincing them that they shouldn't do it.

[QUOTE=Propane Addict;52607605]There's a difference between dissuading and discouraging them. You can say "hey, you probably shouldn't lynch blacks" without convincing them that they shouldn't do it.[/QUOTE] Okay, replace "dissuade" with "discouraging," my point still stands.

[QUOTE=The golden;52608036]So? Does that mean the president should just do nothing at all?[/QUOTE] Absolutely, you can't have freedom of speech and yet crack down on groups just because their views offend you, it doesn't matter if they're neo-nazis, radical muslims or PETA fools they have a right to say whatever they like, provided it doesn't target a specific person of course, certainly Trump should condemn the violence (and as far as I'm aware he did) so that should be the end of it yet it seems a lot of people have an unnecessary hate boner towards neo-nazis, sure their ideology might be a problem but you can say the exact same thing about Islam or any other religion, by trying to censor them they will only become more radicalised and prone to acts of violence, because the reality is only a very small number of neo-nazis are violent, continuing to antagonise them will only lead to another violent act like the one that started this mess in the first place.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608209]Absolutely, you can't have freedom of speech and yet crack down on groups just because their views offend you, it doesn't matter if they're neo-nazis, radical muslims or PETA fools they have a right to say whatever they like, provided it doesn't target a specific person of course, certainly Trump should condemn the violence (and as far as I'm aware he did) so that should be the end of it yet [B]it seems a lot of people have an unnecessary hate boner towards neo-nazis[/B], sure their ideology might be a problem but you can say the exact same thing about Islam or any other religion, by trying to censor them they will only become more radicalised and prone to acts of violence, because the reality is only a very small number of neo-nazis are violent, continuing to antagonise them will only lead to another violent act like the one that started this mess in the first place.[/QUOTE] I can't believe you just tried to say people hating neo-nazis is unnecessary.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608209]Absolutely, you can't have freedom of speech and yet crack down on groups just because their views offend you, it doesn't matter if they're neo-nazis, radical muslims or PETA fools they have a right to say whatever they like, provided it doesn't target a specific person of course, certainly Trump should condemn the violence (and as far as I'm aware he did) so that should be the end of it yet it seems a lot of people have an [B]unnecessary hate boner towards neo-nazis, sure their ideology might be a problem but you can say the exact same thing about Islam or any other religion,[/B] by trying to censor them they will only become more radicalised and prone to acts of violence, because the reality is only a very small number of neo-nazis are violent, continuing to antagonise them will only lead to another violent act like the one that started this mess in the first place.[/QUOTE] So, who do you think the Nazis are? Cause I don't think you're really the person I'd ask if you'd so quickly shrug them off. So basically, when I read this argument for the millionth time, i don't know what you people think when confronted with the harsh reality that we live in right now. Do you think appeasing the Nazi's works? It never did before, but surely, this time, we give them what they want and they'll fuck off, right? We can't risk infringing their safe spaces lest they get provoked to do worse! Is there any sense to doing this? To just sitting back and not opposing Nazis? People on the right flip shit the second a person with a muslim sounding name and brown skin says anything mildly controversial, but god forbid we don't actually condemn neo nazis lest we push them further. No. I can tell you right now, I think your version of how we should handle this is the most dangerous and the most ignorant. Treating self proclaimed nazis with kids gloves like you want to is fucking stupid.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608209]Absolutely, you can't have freedom of speech and yet crack down on groups just because their views offend you, it doesn't matter if they're neo-nazis, radical muslims or PETA fools they have a right to say whatever they like, provided it doesn't target a specific person of course, certainly Trump should condemn the violence (and as far as I'm aware he did) so that should be the end of it yet it seems a lot of people have an unnecessary hate boner towards neo-nazis, sure their ideology might be a problem [b]but you can say the exact same thing about Islam or any other religion, by trying to censor them they will only become more radicalised and prone to acts of violence, because the reality is only a very small number of neo-nazis are violent,[/b] continuing to antagonise them will only lead to another violent act like the one that started this mess in the first place.[/QUOTE] See, you really [I]can't[/I] say that. Islamic extremists are a problem, yes, but they're proportionately minuscule compared to the number of Muslims in the world. Same thing with Christian extremists, Buddhist extremists, [I]any[/I] religious extremists really. They're outliers who twist and contort the beliefs they claim to fight for to justify the awful things they do. Nazi ideology isn't some offshoot. It's based on morally reprehensible beliefs [I]that you have to specifically subscribe to to call yourself a Nazi.[/I] It's really not comparable because Nazism isn't all that nuanced whereas, say, what ISIS believes is radically different from what your average Muslim believes.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608209]Absolutely, you can't have freedom of speech and yet crack down on groups just because their views offend you, it doesn't matter if they're neo-nazis, radical muslims or PETA fools they have a right to say whatever they like, provided it doesn't target a specific person of course, certainly Trump should condemn the violence (and as far as I'm aware he did) so that should be the end of it yet it seems a lot of people have an unnecessary hate boner towards neo-nazis, sure their ideology might be a problem but you can say the exact same thing about Islam or any other religion, by trying to censor them they will only become more radicalised and prone to acts of violence, because the reality is only a very small number of neo-nazis are violent, continuing to antagonise them will only lead to another violent act like the one that started this mess in the first place.[/QUOTE] Comparing Nazism to Islam is completely idiotic. Nazism is closer to ISIS sympathizers if you want to make a religious comparison.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608209]Absolutely, you can't have freedom of speech and yet crack down on groups just because their views offend you, it doesn't matter if they're neo-nazis, radical muslims or PETA fools they have a right to say whatever they like, provided it doesn't target a specific person of course, certainly Trump should condemn the violence (and as far as I'm aware he did) so that should be the end of it yet it seems a lot of people have an unnecessary hate boner towards neo-nazis, sure their ideology might be a problem but you can say the exact same thing about Islam or any other religion, by trying to censor them they will only become more radicalised and prone to acts of violence, because the reality is only a very small number of neo-nazis are violent, continuing to antagonise them will only lead to another violent act like the one that started this mess in the first place.[/QUOTE] Won't somebody please think of the moderate neo-Nazis??

[QUOTE=Trekintosh;52608225]I can't believe you just tried to say people hating neo-nazis is unnecessary.[/QUOTE] Well it is isn't it ? I mean how many of them cause actual harm ? The answer is very few, and sure you're free to hate them but they still deserve the right to speak just like anyone else. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52608243]So, who do you think the Nazis are? Cause I don't think you're really the person I'd ask if you'd so quickly shrug them off. So basically, when I read this argument for the millionth time, i don't know what you people think when confronted with the harsh reality that we live in right now. Do you think appeasing the Nazi's works? It never did before, but surely, this time, we give them what they want and they'll fuck off, right? We can't risk infringing their safe spaces lest they get provoked to do worse! Is there any sense to doing this? To just sitting back and not opposing Nazis? People on the right flip shit the second a person with a muslim sounding name and brown skin says anything mildly controversial, but god forbid we don't actually condemn neo nazis lest we push them further. No. I can tell you right now, I think your version of how we should handle this is the most dangerous and the most ignorant. Treating self proclaimed nazis with kids gloves like you want to is fucking stupid.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying we should appease them, I just saying we should not censor them since no good can ever come from that, if they are committing a crime then sure throw the book at them, not every single person that sympathises with the Nazi ideology is a raving lunatic, I'm willing to bet that a lot of people that have been labelled as Nazi's are actually just your garden variety racist. [QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;52608279]See, you really [I]can't[/I] say that. Islamic extremists are a problem, yes, but they're proportionately minuscule compared to the number of Muslims in the world. Same thing with Christian extremists, Buddhist extremists, [I]any[/I] religious extremists really. They're outliers who twist and contort the beliefs they claim to fight for to justify the awful things they do. Nazi ideology isn't some offshoot. It's based on morally reprehensible beliefs [I]that you have to specifically subscribe to to call yourself a Nazi.[/I] It's really not comparable because Nazism isn't all that nuanced whereas, say, what ISIS believes is radically different from what your average Muslim believes.[/QUOTE] Well pretty much the same thing here, true Nazis are a very tiny minority and even fewer could be considered a danger, still I'd rather have them free to talk in the open rather than force them underground where they become even more dangerous, as much as we might not like it there will always be Nazis around, it's not exactly something you can just stamp out. [QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52608367]Won't somebody please think of the moderate neo-Nazis??[/QUOTE] Well considering your average neo-nazi I'm willing to bet that most of them don't even truly understand what a Nazi actually is, your average modern day neo-nazi isn't quite comparable anyway to a true Nazi.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608432]Well it is isn't it ? I mean how many of them cause actual harm ?[/QUOTE] You don't believe spreading hateful shit around and endoctrinating other individuals into thinking like them ends up causing harm? The fuck are you on?

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608209]Absolutely, you can't have freedom of speech and yet crack down on groups just because their views offend you,[B] it doesn't matter if they're neo-nazis, radical muslims or PETA fools they have a right to say whatever they like[/B], provided it doesn't target a specific person of course, certainly Trump should condemn the violence (and as far as I'm aware he did) so that should be the end of it yet it seems a lot of people have an unnecessary hate boner towards neo-nazis, sure their ideology might be a problem but you can say the exact same thing about Islam or any other religion, by trying to censor them they will only become more radicalised and prone to acts of violence, because the reality is only a very small number of neo-nazis are violent, continuing to antagonise them will only lead to another violent act like the one that started this mess in the first place.[/QUOTE] No, actually they don't. Freedom of speech [I]does not protect[/I] incitements to violence, which are preached daily by "Neo-Nazis" and "Radical Muslims." There is every reason, right, and precedent to "censor" these terrorist groups because they openly endorse murder, assault, and bodily harm. Also, "[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust"]an unnecessary hate boner towards Nazis[/URL]." Get the [B]fuck[/B] out of here with that shit lmao. [editline]24th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Chryseus;52608432]Well it is isn't it ? I mean how many of them cause actual harm ? The answer is very few, and sure you're free to hate them but they still deserve the right to speak just like anyone else. I'm not saying we should appease them, I just saying we should not censor them since no good can ever come from that, if they are committing a crime then sure throw the book at them, not every single person that sympathises with the Nazi ideology is a raving lunatic, I'm willing to bet that a lot of people that have been labelled as Nazi's are actually just your garden variety racist. Well pretty much the same thing here, true Nazis are a very tiny minority and even fewer could be considered a danger, still I'd rather have them free to talk in the open rather than force them underground where they become even more dangerous, as much as we might not like it there will always be Nazis around, it's not exactly something you can just stamp out.[/QUOTE] There is no such thing as a "moderate Nazi." Nazism is an extremist ideology built on a foundation of violence and subjugation. All who subscribe to it, by definition, are violent extremists themselves.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52608445]No, actually they don't. Freedom of speech [I]does not protect[/I] incitements to violence, which are preached daily by "Neo-Nazis" and "Radical Muslims." There is every reason, right, and precedent to "censor" these terrorist groups because they openly endorse murder, assault, and bodily harm. Also, "[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust"]an unnecessary hate boner towards Nazis[/URL]." Get the [B]fuck[/B] out of here with that shit lmao.[/QUOTE] The holocaust was obviously a terrible thing, no one with half a brain would deny that, but I don't see these idiots walking around today as comparable to the Nazis of the 1940's, yes they are racist bigots but you don't deal with that problem with censorship, the only correct way to deal with it is education and from what I can see that isn't happening in the United States, all I see is an ever growing divide, while you can try suppress these groups via censorship we both know that it's not at all effective, especially with the internet as it is today. [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52608445]There is no such thing as a "moderate Nazi." Nazism is an extremist ideology built on a foundation of violence and subjugation. All who subscribe to it, by definition, are violent extremists themselves.[/QUOTE] I can't really disagree with that, but these people are not Nazis, I doubt many of them have even touched a copy of Mein Kampf, they are racists plain and simple.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608476]The holocaust was obviously a terrible thing, no one with half a brain would deny that, but I don't see these idiots walking around today as comparable to the Nazis of the 1940's, yes they are racist bigots but you don't deal with that problem with censorship, the only correct way to deal with it is education and from what I can see that isn't happening in the United States, all I see is an ever growing divide, while you can try suppress these groups via censorship we both know that it's not at all effective, especially with the internet as it is today.[/QUOTE] So why do you think they self proclaim to be Nazis? What do you think they want? What do you think the point of self proclaiming to be a nazi is? What's the point in an entire crowd of "Peaceful" neo nazis as you seem to be saying, chanting "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US"? What does that mean? Is that performance art? How far will you go to sanitize them?

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608476]The holocaust was obviously a terrible thing, no one with half a brain would deny that, but I don't see these idiots walking around today as comparable to the Nazis of the 1940's, yes they are racist bigots but you don't deal with that problem with censorship, the only correct way to deal with it is education and from what I can see that isn't happening in the United States, all I see is an ever growing divide, while you can try suppress these groups via censorship we both know that it's not at all effective, especially with the internet as it is today.[/QUOTE] They are espousing exactly the same ideology. They seek the eradication of "lesser races" through violence, subjugation, and genocide. They are terrorists promoting terroristic violence against innocent people. They don't have a fucking leg to stand on with "free speech," as our freedom of speech laws do not (and should not) protect calls to violence against innocent people. There's no such thing as dry water or a moderate Nazi. They are terrorists, and need to be treated as such. Full stop.

And by the way, plenty of people will disagree about the holocaust. [B]THEY'RE CALLED NAZI'S.[/B]

I wish I could say that I never saw the day coming when unrepentant Nazi apologists were posting on Facepunch, but this has been a long time coming. The world is sliding towards a dark and ugly place, and the bullshit that we fought for so long to kill and bury is rising out of its grave.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52608500]I wish I could say that I never saw the day coming when unrepentant Nazi apologists were posting on Facepunch, but this has been a long time coming. The world is sliding towards a dark and ugly place, and the bullshit that we fought for so long to kill and bury is rising out of its grave.[/QUOTE] Don't confuse me for a Nazi apologists, I may not be the most tolerant person around but there is no way I could ever be described as a Nazi, I'm just saying trying to censor them is a bad idea that will only come back to bite everyone on the ass, I don't want to see another news story of some person being hurt or killed over this but the way things are being pushed and the labelling of anyone even slightly racist as a Nazi is not going to help matters. I wish there was a way to solve this quickly and easily but there isn't, at least none that I can see, at the end of the day grabbing your pitchfork and going after them will not help. [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52608489]There's no such thing as dry water or a moderate Nazi. They are terrorists, and need to be treated as such. Full stop.[/QUOTE] You're quite right there isn't really such a thing as a moderate Nazi, but do you really think these idiots even qualify as Nazis, I mean you only need to take one look at them to see how stupid they are, responding to them is the worst thing you can possibly do, don't get me wrong something needs to be done but there is a right and wrong way to do things.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608476]I can't really disagree with that, but these people are not Nazis, I doubt many of them have even touched a copy of Mein Kampf, they are racists plain and simple.[/QUOTE] Could've fooled me, the way they were marching around chanting "blood and soil," "Jews will not replace us," waving Nazi flags, and wielding shields with fasces on them.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608538]Don't confuse me for a Nazi apologists, I may not be the most tolerant person around but there is no way I could ever be described as a Nazi, I'm just saying trying to censor them is a bad idea that will only come back to bite everyone on the ass, I don't want to see another news story of some person being hurt or killed over this but the way things are being pushed and the labelling of anyone even slightly racist as a Nazi is not going to help matters. I wish there was a way to solve this quickly and easily but there isn't, at least none that I can see, at the end of the day grabbing your pitchfork and going after them will not help. You're quite right there isn't really such a thing as a moderate Nazi, but do you really think these idiots even qualify as Nazis, I mean you only need to take one look at them to see how stupid they are, responding to them is the worst thing you can possibly do, don't get me wrong something needs to be done but there is a right and wrong way to do things.[/QUOTE] If your thought process on this is 'the people who call [B]Themselves[/B] Nazis aren't really Nazis" then please, stop talking.

[QUOTE=Paramud;52608581]Could've fooled me, the way they were marching around chanting "blood and soil," "Jews will not replace us," waving Nazi flags, and wielding shields with fasces on them.[/QUOTE] Anyone can go around shouting phrases and waving a flag, providing they're not causing any serious problems they should be allowed to do so, I mean if we're going to say no you can't do that because it may upset people then we're going to have to ban a lot of other demonstrations as well, I don't see anyone calling for a ban on radical Muslim demonstrations for example even if they happen to be waving jihadi flags and shouting death to the kuffar, and certainly I would be against such as ban. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52608598]If your thought process on this is 'the people who call [B]Themselves[/B] Nazis aren't really Nazis" then please, stop talking.[/QUOTE] If they want to call themself Nazis then fine, but the response should be the same as for any other radical group.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52608614]Anyone can go around shouting phrases and waving a flag, providing they're not causing any serious problems they should be allowed to do so, I mean if we're going to say no you can't do that because it may upset people then we're going to have to ban a lot of other demonstrations as well, I don't see anyone calling for a ban on radical Muslim demonstrations for example even if they happen to be waving jihadi flags and shouting death to the kuffar, and certainly I would be against such as ban.[/QUOTE] Way to just completely disregard what my post was about to go on a tangent.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52608598]If your thought process on this is 'the people who call [B]Themselves[/B] Nazis aren't really Nazis" then please, stop talking.[/QUOTE] No true Scotsmensch?