Muslim Officer Sues New York Police Dept. Over No-Beard Policy - Polidicks

[b]Muslim Officer Sues New York Police Dept. Over No-Beard Policy[/b] Via [URL=http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/nyregion/muslim-officer-sues-new-york-police-dept-over-no-beard-policy.html?_r=0]NY Times[/URL] _________________________ [quote][img]http://i.imgur.com/3fFRErR.jpg[/img] [i]Officer Masood Syed, a Pakistani-American, is seeking to force the New York Police Department to change a policy that his lawyers say infringes on the rights of more than 100 officers.[/i] - - - In the debate over beards in business settings, the New York Police Department officially stands opposed, with limited exceptions for officers seeking a medical or religious accommodation. The department’s no-beard policy, as it is known, is at the center of a federal class-action lawsuit filed on Wednesday on behalf of a Muslim police officer who says he was suspended during the fasting month of Ramadan for refusing to shave his one-inch beard. The lawsuit, brought by Masood Syed, 32, aims to force the Police Department to change a policy that his lawyers say infringes on the rights of more than 100 officers seeking to exercise their religious freedoms without fear of discrimination or retaliation. Officer Syed, a 10-year veteran assigned to the office that handles disciplinary proceedings against officers, was suspended without pay on Tuesday. At an emergency hearing on Wednesday in Federal District Court in Manhattan, Judge P. Kevin Castel ordered the department to continue paying Officer Syed until his next court date on July 8, when the court will decide whether he can return to work. “It’s frustrating because it’s a city that’s supposed to represent us,” Luna Droubi, a lawyer for Officer Syed, said. “This is New York City. Yet here they are telling people of different faiths that they can’t protect and serve, that they can’t be officers of the law because they’re different.” The Police Department has said that the rule is necessary for the safety of its officers. Lawrence Byrne, the department’s deputy commissioner for legal matters, said the policy helped prevent officers from being overcome in physical confrontations and met federal guidelines for the gas masks that officers would use in a chemical or biological attack. “We remain the No. 1 terrorist target in the world,” Mr. Byrne said. “And we need to have all 36,000 of our officers able to respond.”[/quote] Both parties are in the right, however IMO the safety regulations take more precedence. [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] I also think he should definitely keep it very short.

[QUOTE]In the debate over beards in business settings, the New York Police Department officially stands opposed, with limited exceptions for officers seeking a medical or religious accommodation.[/QUOTE] I never get the point of religious exceptions. Either allow the thing for everyone or don't.

[QUOTE=Kljunas;50573352]I never get the point of religious exceptions. Either allow the thing for everyone or don't.[/QUOTE] Wondering what's their stance on a rastafarian policeman, then. [quote]"All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the Lord, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow."[/quote] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari#Dreadlocks[/url]

[quote]“It’s frustrating because it’s a city that’s supposed to represent us,” Luna Droubi, a lawyer for Officer Syed, said. “This is New York City. Yet here they are telling people of different faiths that they can’t protect and serve, that they can’t be officers of the law because they’re different.”[/quote] Erm no. It's clearly out of safety, not because you are "different".

"I should be able to break policy put in place for the safety of myself and others because you have to respect my invisible man in the sky"

I feel like maybe they should discourage beards but I don't feel like they need to be outright disallowed unless they're way longer than your hair or something because be real a beard is very close to the hair on the top of someone's head. If someone's in the position to grab your beard they're very likely in a position to yank your regular hair. Same goes for the gas mask situation, really. I keep my beard trimmed to 12cm and that's definitely short enough that I could easily fit a gas mask over my beard without issue. Hell, the beard in the pic in the OP that he has looks like it'd be fine as well. tl;dr I believe in beards of reasonably short length as to not really affect either gas masks or physical confrontations. [editline]a[/editline] Though honestly considering that his job is protecting people and you would logically like to keep factors that would impede that duty to a minimum, I'm still perfectly okay with the no beards policy because in a case like this I feel like the safety of the people matters more.

[QUOTE=gk99;50573524]I feel like maybe they should discourage beards but I don't feel like they need to be outright disallowed unless they're way longer than your hair or something because be real a beard is very close to the hair on the top of someone's head. If someone's in the position to grab your beard they're very likely in a position to yank your regular hair. Same goes for the gas mask situation, really. I keep my beard trimmed to 12cm and that's definitely short enough that I could easily fit a gas mask over my beard without issue. Hell, the beard in the pic in the OP that he has looks like it'd be fine as well. tl;dr I believe in beards of reasonably short length as to not really affect either gas masks or physical confrontations. [editline]a[/editline] Though honestly considering that his job is protecting people and you would logically like to keep factors that would impede that duty to a minimum, I'm still perfectly okay with the no beards policy because in a case like this I feel like the safety of the people matters more.[/QUOTE] He's arguing for a half-inch to inch-long beard, and he had that beard for a long while before he got in trouble for it - including in his photograph. That's 1 to 2.5cm long - hardly enough to easily grab onto in a fistfight and make it a real safety hazard. The article mentions that a Hasidic Jew was reinstated after being booted off the force for not shaving - I'd have to assume that his beard is significantly longer than what this guy is arguing for. It seems perfectly reasonable and hardly a safety issue.

Yeah, it should probably be relaxed a little to allow *short* beards and only for certain individuals.

I feel like this article is very relevant to the OP, and at the same time, I think it sets the proper precedent for something like this: [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/11/us/citadel-denies-students-request-to-wear-a-hijab.html?_r=0"]The New York Times: Citadel Denies Student’s Request to Wear a Hijab[/URL]

I can understand keeping such organisations completely secular. What I don't understand is why special concessions are made for Sikhs but rarely any other religion/race. For instance, the police and armed forces here allow Sikhs to wear their turbans but Muslim women are not allowed to put on their hijabs. *shrug*

[QUOTE=angelangel;50573923]I can understand keeping such organisations completely secular. What I don't understand is why special concessions are made for Sikhs but rarely any other religion/race. For instance, the police and armed forces here allow Sikhs to wear their turbans but Muslim women are not allowed to put on their hijabs. *shrug*[/QUOTE] Maybe it has to do with how they helped during WW1? Lots of Sikh were fighting in Europe, and it might be a reason somehow?

I've always thought that beards were more of a traditional thing than a religious thing as with burqas. Only a handful of the Muslims I know actually wear beards. It's not really necessitated by the religion IIRC. [editline]dsa [/editline] Yep, did a quick search to confirm. Beards were apparently needed during the time of muhammad in order for the muslims(a far smaller minority back then) to distinguish themselves from non-muslims in the middle east. But at present it is not necessary and it is actually preferable to trim them for the sake of hygiene. Middle eastern people just traditionally put it on as a show of respect to muhammad by following after his appearance. So yeah this is more about tradition than it is about islam [QUOTE=phygon;50573523]"I should be able to break policy put in place for the safety of myself and others because you have to respect my invisible man in the sky"[/QUOTE] read above [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50574554]Personally I think exceptions for religions are silly and honestly immoral. Unless a rule was put in place with the purpose of discriminating against a certain religion, there's really no basis for removing it if it is otherwise reasonable. I won't say whether this rule is reasonable or not, though, maybe short beard could be allowed? I don't know. [/QUOTE] not really a religious thing though since it's perfectly fine for a muslim not to wear a beard

[QUOTE=Rainboo;50574013]I've always thought that beards were more of a traditional thing than a religious thing as with burqas. Only a handful of the Muslims I know actually wear beards. It's not really necessitated by the religion IIRC. [editline]dsa [/editline] Yep, did a quick search to confirm. Beards were apparently needed during the time of muhammad in order for the muslims(a far smaller minority back then) to distinguish themselves from non-muslims in the middle east. But at present it is not necessary and it is actually preferable to trim them for the sake of hygiene. Middle eastern people just traditionally put it on as a show of respect to muhammad by following after his appearance. So yeah this is more about tradition than it is about islam[/QUOTE] I'm not an expert on islam too but afaik islam also allows for exceptions to rules if needed. E.g., if you really can't make it to mecca, you don't have to, if you really can't fast, you don't have to. Not sure if that could apply here even if it were a rule tho.

He's really hot.

[QUOTE=Rubs10;50574426]He's really hot.[/QUOTE] Does this matter?

[QUOTE=phygon;50573523]"I should be able to break policy put in place for the safety of myself and others because you have to respect my invisible man in the sky"[/QUOTE] Posts like these just scream edginess

I think he should cut. I'm always scared sitting in the bus next to a guy with long beard.

Personally I think exceptions for religions are silly and honestly immoral. Unless a rule was put in place with the purpose of discriminating against a certain religion, there's really no basis for removing it if it is otherwise reasonable. I won't say whether this rule is reasonable or not, though, maybe short beard could be allowed? I don't know. [editline]23rd June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Chaitin;50574552]I think he should cut. I'm always scared sitting in the bus next to a guy with long beard.[/QUOTE] What.

You can not get a reliable seal on a respirator with a beard. [IMG_thumb]http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843188E/3mtm-half-facepiece-reusable-respirator-6300.jpg[/img_thumb] What if they just let him wear his beard? Then he encounters a situation in the line of duty where he needs to wear a respirator, doesn't get a proper seal, and gets killed or injured because of it. The department could be sued by the family for not enforcing OSHA regulations and there would be OSHA fines on top of it. They didn't fire him, they suspended him. If his beard is that important to him, he should understand not being able to work if it makes him a liability.

[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50574627]You can not get a reliable seal on a respirator with a beard. [IMG_thumb]http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843188E/3mtm-half-facepiece-reusable-respirator-6300.jpg[/img_thumb] What if they just let him wear his beard? Then he encounters a situation in the line of duty where he needs to wear a respirator, doesn't get a proper seal, and gets killed or injured because of it. The department could be sued by the family for not enforcing OSHA regulations and there would be OSHA fines on top of it. They didn't fire him, they suspended him. If his beard is that important to him, he should understand not being able to work if it makes him a liability.[/QUOTE] Would a respirator work with a short beard? If it does, there's a point for that suggestion.

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;50574882]Would a respirator work with a short beard? If it does, there's a point for that suggestion.[/QUOTE] As far as I've heard, not unless you have some Vaseline.

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;50574882]Would a respirator work with a short beard? If it does, there's a point for that suggestion.[/QUOTE] Nope. [Quote=OSHA 09/2012]An employer whose records show a respirator wearer passing a fit-test with facial hair in the respirator sealing surface area is not considered to be compliant with the standard. The fit that is achieved with a beard or facial hair is unpredictable; it may change daily depending on growth of the hair and position of the hair at the time the fit is tested.[/quote] [url]https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=28997[/url]

Imagine suing your employer because they have a safety grooming policy. I would ask why he didn't just shave his beard like a reasonable person but I guess he wouldn't get a NYT article and headshots done in that case. How would you even go back to work after suing your department? Why would you start a career by legally attacking your employer?

Oh wow, I could be completely wrong about the situation because it seems like OSHA regulations don't apply to federal or state employees. Well fuck.

[QUOTE=Chaitin;50574552]I think he should cut. I'm always scared sitting in the bus next to a guy with long beard.[/QUOTE] If I ever find you I'm gonna seat next to you every time. I mean not now since I shaved but I've had it like the photo on the OP before.

No one forced him into that profession. I don't go into my job and ignore the dress code and safety rules because I don't feel like and make them conform to me, he shouldn't either.

[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50574627]You can not get a reliable seal on a respirator with a beard.[/QUOTE] This. Plus if you have a beard or long hair in the force it gives perps something to grab onto. There's training for getting out of these holds, but it's easier to just have shorter hair and little to no facial hair. Moustaches are okay.

[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;50574627]You can not get a reliable seal on a respirator with a beard. [IMG_thumb]http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843188E/3mtm-half-facepiece-reusable-respirator-6300.jpg[/img_thumb] What if they just let him wear his beard? Then he encounters a situation in the line of duty where he needs to wear a respirator, doesn't get a proper seal, and gets killed or injured because of it. The department could be sued by the family for not enforcing OSHA regulations and there would be OSHA fines on top of it. They didn't fire him, they suspended him. If his beard is that important to him, he should understand not being able to work if it makes him a liability.[/QUOTE] This the sole reason behind my employers no beard policy. You can have stubble, but you have to keep it in check

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50575241]No one forced him into that profession. I don't go into my job and ignore the dress code and safety rules because I don't feel like and make them conform to me, he shouldn't either.[/QUOTE] Yep. I'm quite sure I would be fired if I started wearing a spaghetti cauldron to work

If it's a safety issue then he should provide his own respirator/mask that conforms to the same standards if he wants to keep his beard, I think that's fair. [QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;50574882]Would a respirator work with a short beard? If it does, there's a point for that suggestion.[/QUOTE]If it can fit within the seal of the respirator then yes, I have to roll up my goatee to fit in my mask (some masks are a bit tight considering the volume of hair) but it works fine.