PEGIDA has same mentality as ISIL, says Davutoglu, Turkish PM
32 replies, posted
[url]http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/152980/pegida-has-same-mentality-as-isil-says-davutoglu[/url]
[QUOTE]Davutoglu's comments came in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung published on Wednesday, as recently formed PEGIDA (Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West) continues to make headlines with the significant increases in support it has achieved within just months.
Davutoglu told the German daily: "When terrorist groups destroyed churches in Mossul, they believed that it was an Islamic city only for Muslims, but that was not true."
"Throughout history, Christian also lived there. This is the same logic of PEGIDA which argues that Germany only belongs to Christians."
"That is a medieval mentality," he said, criticizing PEGIDA’s rejection of cultural diversity and its anti-Islam and anti-immigration rhetoric.
The group started weekly protests in Dresden in October with around 500 protesters, but on Monday more than 25,000 protesters attended PEGIDA’s rally in Dresden.
- 'Threat for Turks'
PEGIDA has attracted far-right and right-wing groups as well as citizens unaffiliated to a political party or group.
[B]Davutoglu went on: "We have serious concerns over PEGIDA. These people wish for an exclusively Christian German society."
"That is not only a threat for Turks and Muslims, but also a threat for Germany itself."[/B]
The Turkish Prime Minister underlined that, soon after the economic crisis in Germany in 1929, people looked for culprits, for someone to blame, among those they perceived as "the other".
The popular discontent was exploited by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Party in the 1930s and led to extermination policies against the Jews.
About six million Jews died through genocide carried out in death camps across Nazi Germany.
- 'Looking for culprits'
Davutoglu warned against the current dangerous trend of looking for culprits for economic or social problems, and said that this were further similarities between PEGIDA and ISIL.
“Looking for culprits among the others …That is exactly the mentality of Daesh (ISIL). A pre-modern name for that can be Daesh, a modern name for that is PEGIDA,” he said.
He thanked German Chancellor Angela Merkel for her remarks on Monday, when she stressed that Islam was also a part of Germany.
Davutoglu underlined that Turkish immigrants living in Germany had successfully integrated into society despite many obstacles.
“If we would like to make further progress in integration, we should focus on the success stories. But people often see first the negative aspects,” Davutoglu said.
Germany has the second-largest Muslim population in Western Europe, after France.
[/QUOTE]
[editline]14th January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE]- Perceived threat
Among the four million Muslims in the country, three million are of Turkish origin.
Germany witnessed an increase in suspicion and negative feelings towards Muslims in recent months as fa-right and right-wing populist parties sought to benefit from a growing fear of Islam and Muslims.
A recent study by the Bertelsmann Foundation has revealed that Germans have become more intolerant towards Islam in recent years and developed a prejudiced opinion of Muslim immigrants.
A total of 57 percent of Germany’s non-Muslims said in a representative poll in Nov. 2014 that they perceived Islam as a threat - a rise of four percent since 2012.
Sixty one percent of Germans said they believed Islam was not compatible with life in the Western world, representing a nine percent increase from 2012.
[B]Forty percent[/B] said that they did not feel at home in their own country because of what they perceived to be the "Islamization" of the nation.
[/QUOTE]
That's a big percentage
PEGIDA might be assclowns, but I've yet to see them engaging in mass rape and murder in a concentrated effort to drag civilization down a bloody path back to the dark ages.
[quote]Davutoglu went on: "We have serious concerns over PEGIDA. These people wish for an exclusively Christian German society."[/quote]
Serious concerns over PEGIDA but they refuse to do anything against ISIS who are on their doorstep??
Far Right parties blames an entire ethnic group for attacks and believes that they are completely evil but they are not.
Sounds like something familiar..........
Anyways, this Anti-Islam bullshit needs to stop
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;46933406]Far Right parties blames an entire ethnic group for attacks and believes that they are completely evil but they are not.
Sounds like something familiar..........
Anyways, this Anti-Islam bullshit needs to stop, Im christian and i know that all muslims are not cold blooded killers.
Besides we've done some more f**ked up stuff anyways since we started the crusades and the spanish inquisition.[/QUOTE]
Happened hundreds of f**king years ago, irrelevant, holy sh*t god**n
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;46933654]Happened hundreds of f**king years ago, irrelevant, holy sh*t god**n[/QUOTE]
In school trying not to get my ass caught for doing face punch...
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;46933406]Far Right parties blames an entire ethnic group for attacks and believes that they are completely evil but they are not.
Sounds like something familiar..........
Anyways, this Anti-Islam bullshit needs to stop[/QUOTE]
Which "entire ethnic group" are they blaming?
Right, they aren't blaming any ethnic group. Islam isn't an ethnic group
[QUOTE]A total of 57 percent of Germany’s non-Muslims said in a representative poll in Nov. 2014 that they perceived Islam as a threat - a rise of four percent since 2012.
Sixty one percent of Germans said they believed Islam was not compatible with life in the Western world, representing a nine percent increase from 2012.
Forty percent said that they did not feel at home in their own country because of what they perceived to be the "Islamization" of the nation.[/QUOTE]
Just an FYI this study was conducted by the "Bertelsmann AG" which owns the RTL Network which is the largest television company in Europe. They are known for their low standards and I wouldn't take this study for fact; they released studies in the past which turned out to be riddled with methological errors.
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;46933690]In school trying not to get my ass caught for doing face punch...[/QUOTE]
ohh man pass the face punch over dude
You want to avoid the islamization of Europe? Then start encouraging couples having children...with that natality rate, no wonder they think they will be "replaced" by Muslims. Force everbody to learn German (If that's not forced yet)
Plus, it's not like they are the 30% of the country. FFS.
I mean, as an Argentine I can talk about this because my country faced a complicated situation in the XIX century in which we had turks, spanish, italians, germans and polish all living in the same neighbourhood. It was basically WWI on a smaller, door to door, scale.
We solved that problems by forcing everyone to send their children to state schools in which they were taught Spanish and Argentina's history, so as to create a sense of national unity among all inmigrants.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;46935838]You want to avoid the islamization of Europe? Then start encouraging couples having children...with that natality rate, no wonder they think they will be "replaced" by Muslims. Force everbody to learn German (If that's not forced yet)
Plus, it's not like they are the 30% of the country. FFS.
I mean, as an Argentine I can talk about this because my country faced a complicated situation in the XIX century in which we had turks, spanish, italians, germans and polish all living in the same neighbourhood. It was basically WWI on a smaller, door to door, scale.
We solved that problems by forcing everyone to send their children to state schools in which they were taught Spanish and Argentina's history, so as to create a sense of national unity among all inmigrants.[/QUOTE]
meanwhile in europe we have now islamic-schools lol
I dont know why protests against islamization are so bad. They are not against islam itself, just against stuff like bringing sharia law into europe. And there are a few politicians who are working on that goal, its just that the mainstream media isnt reporting anything about this.
[url]http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article13845521/Scharia-haelt-Einzug-in-deutsche-Gerichtssaele.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Impact1986;46940175]I dont know why protests against islamization are so bad. They are not against islam itself, just against stuff like bringing sharia law into europe. And there are a few politicians who are working on that goal, its just that the mainstream media isnt reporting anything about this.
[url]http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article13845521/Scharia-haelt-Einzug-in-deutsche-Gerichtssaele.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Besides the fact that the vast majority of the protesters have never actually met a Muslim and have no idea what they're actually like. By saying "they're stopping Sharia Law!" you're doing nothing but shouting the same practically imaginary buzzwords that they do.
Yeah Turkey can totally talk down to other countries about this kind of thing with all the priests killed in their country. Come get me when PEGIDA murders an imam.
[QUOTE=Firewarrior;46933708]Which "entire ethnic group" are they blaming?
Right, they aren't blaming any ethnic group. Islam isn't an ethnic group[/QUOTE]
Neither, really, were the Jews.
My ass same mentality.
The turks probably share the same mentality with ISIL for Kurds.
[QUOTE=Impact1986;46940175]I dont know why protests against islamization are so bad. They are not against islam itself, just against stuff like bringing sharia law into europe. And there are a few politicians who are working on that goal, its just that the mainstream media isnt reporting anything about this.
[url]http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article13845521/Scharia-haelt-Einzug-in-deutsche-Gerichtssaele.html[/url][/QUOTE]
lol where the heck is sharia law being implemented on any legislative level in europe
for that to happen in a democratic system you would need the majority of people living there to be sympathetic towards said code, at which point it'd be the right of the people living there to choose that course for themselves.
what's actually happening is that some groups in these democratic societies are saying "hey maybe we should give legal recognition and respect to the culture of these people coming into our country" and the response is "[I]you're trying to force us all to become muslims by mandating dignity and promoting multiculturalism![/I]"
[QUOTE=joes33431;46955115]"hey maybe we should give legal recognition and respect to the culture of these people coming into our country"[/QUOTE]
?
[QUOTE=joes33431;46955115]lol where the heck is sharia law being implemented on any legislative level in europe
for that to happen in a democratic system you would need the majority of people living there to be sympathetic towards said code, at which point it'd be the right of the people living there to choose that course for themselves.
what's actually happening is that some groups in these democratic societies are saying "hey maybe we should give legal recognition and respect to the culture of these people coming into our country" and the response is "[I]you're trying to force us all to become muslims by mandating dignity and promoting multiculturalism![/I]"[/QUOTE]
Legal recognition of a culture that shits on the rights of women?
[QUOTE=Impact1986;46957909]Legal recognition of a culture that shits on the rights of women?[/QUOTE]
do you think that those values are going to change by force, exclusion, and discrimination
do you not think that by attacking the people who hold those values and demonizing the culture in which they exist, you're only setting them up to be diametrically opposed to change
[I]that[/I] is why people are leaving europe to fight for the islamic state, not religious belief in of itself. that belief is just a rallying point against what is seen to be a common enemy.
you cannot change a belief by attacking it, because it only puts its holders on the defense. it makes change and secularism and equality the bad guy, the bogeyman trying to destroy what they have. change comes from within, when the people holding these beliefs realize for themselves that certain values like equality are more worthwhile and beneficial to society.
[QUOTE=joes33431;46957997]do you think that those values are going to change by force, exclusion, and discrimination
do you not think that by attacking the people who hold those values and demonizing the culture in which they exist, you're only setting them up to be diametrically opposed to change
[I]that[/I] is why people are leaving europe to fight for the islamic state, not religious belief in of itself. that belief is just a rallying point against what is seen to be a common enemy.
you cannot change a belief by attacking it, because it only puts its holders on the defense. it makes change and secularism and equality the bad guy, the bogeyman trying to destroy what they have. change comes from within, when the people holding these beliefs realize for themselves that certain values like equality are more worthwhile and beneficial to society.[/QUOTE]
How is legal recognition of their culture gonna help change their culture?
Why cant they just accept the laws of the country they are migrating to? If they wanna live their bullshit culture they can go back to the country that holds up these primitive values. Throwing people of the roofs of high buildings just because they are homosexuals, or stoning women because of adultery is dark ages type of thinking.
What an absurd thing to say but then the opposition typically would say anything
[QUOTE=joes33431;46957997]do you think that those values are going to change by force, exclusion, and discrimination[/quote]
Yes. Forceful laws exist against those beliefs, any exclusion or discrimination is of that person's own doing. Millions of people have backgrounds in countries where shitty beliefs exist, they now live normally in western society.
[quote]
do you not think that by attacking the people who hold those values and demonizing the culture in which they exist, you're only setting them up to be diametrically opposed to change[/quote]
No. Do you not think that by actively criticising certain views that it would prompt people to actually consider them? How else would beliefs be altered, we can't just passively expect views to change to what we believe to be acceptable - how is that in any way realistic?
[quote][I]that[/I] is why people are leaving europe to fight for the islamic state, not religious belief in of itself. that belief is just a rallying point against what is seen to be a common enemy.[/quote]
What the fuck?? They protest against the west by going to the Middle East to kill Yadizis? No. They go because they are outcasts in all parts of society, they want to belong to something exciting - battle, guns, women.
[quote]
you cannot change a belief by attacking it, because it only puts its holders on the defense. it makes change and secularism and equality the bad guy, the bogeyman trying to destroy what they have. change comes from within, when the people holding these beliefs realize for themselves that certain values like equality are more worthwhile and beneficial to society.[/QUOTE]
Yes you can. Attacking something, criticising it or making it seem ridiculous is exactly how you change views. How would a realisation come about without any external influence?
[QUOTE=joes33431;46955115]lol where the heck is sharia law being implemented on any legislative level in europe
for that to happen in a democratic system you would need the majority of people living there to be sympathetic towards said code, at which point it'd be the right of the people living there to choose that course for themselves.
what's actually happening is that some groups in these democratic societies are saying "hey maybe we should give legal recognition and respect to the culture of these people coming into our country" and the response is "[I]you're trying to force us all to become muslims by mandating dignity and promoting multiculturalism![/I]"[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by "legal recognition of the culture"?
[QUOTE=Kljunas;46960959]What do you mean by "legal recognition of the culture"?[/QUOTE]
By making it illegal to criticize their backwards ways?
[QUOTE=joes33431;46957997]do you think that those values are going to change by force, exclusion, and discrimination
do you not think that by attacking the people who hold those values and demonizing the culture in which they exist, you're only setting them up to be diametrically opposed to change
[I]that[/I] is why people are leaving europe to fight for the islamic state, not religious belief in of itself. that belief is just a rallying point against what is seen to be a common enemy.
you cannot change a belief by attacking it, because it only puts its holders on the defense. it makes change and secularism and equality the bad guy, the bogeyman trying to destroy what they have. change comes from within, when the people holding these beliefs realize for themselves that certain values like equality are more worthwhile and beneficial to society.[/QUOTE]
there is no "objective" right, so for them to switch from beliefs they truly hold to beliefs that we truly hold just through self realization is almost never going to happen.
in the mean time while we wait for your impossible scenario people are indoctrinated into a faith they then believe they're choosing for the rest of their lives, or until they do have those rare moments of self realization. But what you're not taking into account here is over the years there have been many muslims who denounce the extremes of their faith in public and are public figures themselves. Guess what? They don't start a zeitgeist in their own population, they become excommunicated and hated for differing.
Sometimes you can't just wait for things to get better.
[QUOTE=butt2089;46960837]Yes. Forceful laws exist against those beliefs, any exclusion or discrimination is of that person's own doing. Millions of people have backgrounds in countries where shitty beliefs exist, they now live normally in western society.[/quote]
can you rephrase this because i have no idea what you're saying
[quote]No. Do you not think that by actively criticising certain views that it would prompt people to actually consider them? How else would beliefs be altered, we can't just passively expect views to change to what we believe to be acceptable - how is that in any way realistic?
...
Yes you can. Attacking something, criticising it or making it seem ridiculous is exactly how you change views. How would a realisation come about without any external influence?[/QUOTE]
well i mean considering that it's happened with literally every culture that went into the melting pot that is the united states i would definitely say that you [I]can[/I] passively expect beliefs to change
do you think that the government is actively making subsequent generations more liberal or what
[QUOTE]What the fuck?? They protest against the west by going to the Middle East to kill Yadizis? No. They go because they are outcasts in all parts of society, they want to belong to something exciting - battle, guns, women.[/QUOTE]
they consider themselves outcasts because they are rejected by their host societies.
if people really wanted muslims to assimilate into their culture effectively, then they would do so with open arms instead of open attack. like i said, to move in the offense is only to put someone on the defense -- they reject whatever ideals we could have shared more vehemently, because it is then a matter of 'us' vs 'them' and all values associated.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;46961055]there is no "objective" right, so for them to switch from beliefs they truly hold to beliefs that we truly hold just through self realization is almost never going to happen.
in the mean time while we wait for your impossible scenario people are indoctrinated into a faith they then believe they're choosing for the rest of their lives, or until they do have those rare moments of self realization. But what you're not taking into account here is over the years there have been many muslims who denounce the extremes of their faith in public and are public figures themselves. Guess what? They don't start a zeitgeist in their own population, they become excommunicated and hated for differing.
Sometimes you can't just wait for things to get better.[/QUOTE]
so does that mean that the millions of moderate muslims in the world don't exist
i don't know if you've noticed but moderate viewpoints and ideals have penetrated into much of the world's other religions -- even in the case of christian fundamentalists in the united states, most of their tactics are at least nonviolent, and the religious zeitgeist that informed conservative christian thought in the united states is part of a dying breed.
just look at iran -- even in isolation from the west amidst sanctions, the mere exposure to western culture (particularly through satellite tv, which about 2/3rds of iranian homes have access to) has created a new generation that is both decidedly accepting of the united states and decidedly more liberal on social issues.
not to mention that muslim populations in countries like the united states are, while in many cases socially conservative, still willing to participate in the society and its culture while still maintaining elements of their own.
I don't know what's going on over there but I can say that the minute you throw "Patriotic" into the name somewhere I know you're full of shit.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;46933252]PEGIDA might be assclowns, but I've yet to see them engaging in mass rape and murder in a concentrated effort to drag civilization down a bloody path back to the dark ages.[/QUOTE]
PEGIDA doesn't have guns & big money backing.
[QUOTE=butt2089;46933286]Serious concerns over PEGIDA but they refuse to do anything against ISIS who are on their doorstep??[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with having a Christian German Society? I am sure the turkish pm would be ok if it was a muslim "german" society.
[editline]20th January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;46953380]My ass same mentality.
The turks probably share the same mentality with ISIL for Kurds.[/QUOTE]
The turks are actually regarded as more secular and moderate when it comes to islam and union with the state. So those that are not the same as turkey have far worse views.
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