Delhi gang rape: Four men found guilty, facing possible death penalty at sentencing tomorrow - Polidicks

[img]http://imgkk.com/i/75n8.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-24028767[/url] [quote]Four men have been found guilty of the fatal gang rape of a student in the Indian capital Delhi last December. The 23-year-old woman was brutally assaulted on a bus and died two weeks later. Her death led to days of huge protests across India in a wave of unprecedented anger. The case forced the introduction of tough new laws to punish sexual offences. The four men are expected to be sentenced on Wednesday.[/quote]

If the evidence prooves completely bulletproof, ill feel no pity.

[QUOTE=Sprockethead;42141891]If the evidence prooves completely bulletproof, ill feel no pity.[/QUOTE] According to the article the defense's lawyer say their confession was tortured out of them, I hope they're wrong.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42141933]According to the article the defense's lawyer say their confession was tortured out of them, I hope they're wrong.[/QUOTE] Well confessions derived from torture is the absolutely worst way to attain evidence. So im calling bullshit on this one.

[QUOTE=Sprockethead;42141968]Well confessions derived from torture is the absolutely worst way to attain evidence. So im calling bullshit on this one.[/QUOTE] I mean I hope there was no torture - as far as I know all there is for evidence is the lawyer's word, which would of course come from the defendants. Hopefully if there was torture it comes to light quickly but there's quite a shit storm going on over there

[QUOTE=Elspin;42141933]According to the article the defense's lawyer say their confession was tortured out of them, I hope they're wrong.[/QUOTE] This kind of defense might work if the people involved were,say, members of the criminal underworld, for example. In fact, it's been used successfully many times to get them off as well. However, in this case it's quite possible it was done (mostly because every single cop wanted the beat the everloving shit put of them), but at the same time nobody gives a shit because they want to see these guys die regardless. Gross violation of the law, possibly, but considering this a cookie cutter defense tactic i think the Delhi cops would've covered their tracks well enough to render this point moot.

at one end i am deeply against the death penalty because i think that people can be reformed to a certain extent on the other hand, these four guys are bastards that caused the death of another in a cruel and unusual way, and part of me says its ok

[QUOTE=aznz888;42142545]at one end i am deeply against the death penalty because i think that people can be reformed to a certain extent on the other hand, these four guys are bastards that caused the death of another in a cruel and unusual way, and part of me says its ok[/QUOTE] You think this is bad, you should see the latest outrage in India,[URL="http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/25/20181682-indian-police-round-up-all-five-suspects-in-mumbai-rape-case?lite"] this case from Mumbai[/URL]. This is a real shocker, because Mumbai's actually quite safe for women. These guys are going to be shitting their pants now that the verdict is out for this lot.

[QUOTE=aznz888;42142545]at one end i am deeply against the death penalty because i think that people can be reformed to a certain extent on the other hand, these four guys are bastards that caused the death of another in a cruel and unusual way, and part of me says its ok[/QUOTE] It's not ok, obviously The thought of vengeance is a very primitive part of the human psyche and it's very easy to slide down that slope. What they deserve is to be locked up and never be let out again.

[QUOTE=demoguy08;42142614]It's not ok, obviously The thought of vengeance is a very primitive part of the human psyche and it's very easy to slide down that slope. What they deserve is to be locked up and never be let out again.[/QUOTE] In India's case, this would result in the prisons being overpopulated in no time, though.

[QUOTE=demoguy08;42142614]It's not ok, obviously The thought of vengeance is a very primitive part of the human psyche and it's very easy to slide down that slope. What they deserve is to be locked up and never be let out again.[/QUOTE] Giving them death sentence due to vengeance is wrong. However, if they really couldn't be deemed to be capable of acting sensibly, giving them death sentence due to inability to work within the society's laws wouldn't be an act of vengeance, it'd be an act of practicality. That I could accept, even if only in rare cases where rehabilitation wasn't a choice. I agree with what you say though about vengeance being a very primitive response. Instinctive drives and temptations shouldn't guide our actions, logic should.

Yay! Now that FOUR MORE PEOPLE are dead, things will be better! Hurray for justice!

[QUOTE=demoguy08;42142614]It's not ok, obviously The thought of vengeance is a very primitive part of the human psyche and it's very easy to slide down that slope. What they deserve is to be locked up and never be let out again.[/QUOTE] You know, locking someone away forever is also a way of vengeance. Vengeance is a way of justice. This is how our criminal system works nowadays. In response to pain received, we punish the culprit. If you'd want to move away from that system, you wouldn't punish the criminal, but reform him so he understand his wrongdoing and doesn't do it again. And yet, those who are "Reformed" are still outcast by people and shunned from a decent job. There's no good way out of this.

So four suspects are arrested for a gang rape, India being the shining beacon of justice and equality tortures the four of them until they confess to doing it, and then they get the death sentence. Incredible.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;42148668] Incredible.[/QUOTE] And you, my good man, are far too credulous.

[QUOTE=Feuver;42148505]You know, locking someone away forever is also a way of vengeance. Vengeance is a way of justice. This is how our criminal system works nowadays. In response to pain received, we punish the culprit. If you'd want to move away from that system, you wouldn't punish the criminal, but reform him so he understand his wrongdoing and doesn't do it again. And yet, those who are "Reformed" are still outcast by people and shunned from a decent job. There's no good way out of this.[/QUOTE] Locking them up in a hole and leaving them there is no better than killing them. Some would consider it worse. A justice system should not be based on vengeance unless you are a barbarian who enjoys human suffering.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42149132]Locking them up in a hole and leaving them there is no better than killing them. Some would consider it worse. A justice system should not be based on vengeance unless you are a barbarian who enjoys human suffering.[/QUOTE] Like all of humanity, including you and me, on some deep level?

[QUOTE=Harnbrand;42149198]Like all of humanity, including you and me, on some deep level?[/QUOTE] Sure but I don't act on it.

[QUOTE=Explosions;42149414]Sure but I don't act on it.[/QUOTE] That is because you are not being put in that position to begin with. If I were to say that your sister was raped to death on a moving bus, and afterward she had her intestines pulled out of her vagina while these people watche and was subsequently left naked and left for dead in a ditch on the side of the road, tell me, how would that make you feel? Her own brother attempted to beat the everloving shit out of the guy who was declared as a juvenile and got just three years in prison and you want to spout off being completely disconnected from what happened and pretend that you are in full control of your primal instincts like that?

[QUOTE=snookypookums;42149629]That is because you are not being put in that position to begin with. If I were to say that your sister was raped to death on a moving bus, and afterward she had her intestines pulled out of her vagina while these people watche and was subsequently left naked and left for dead in a ditch on the side of the road, tell me, how would that make you feel? Her own brother attempted to beat the everloving shit out of the guy who was declared as a juvenile and got just three years in prison and you want to spout off being completely disconnected from what happened and pretend that you are in full control of your primal instincts like that?[/QUOTE] It would make me want to murder those people. Which is exactly the reason why I should not be allowed to influence the investigation or trial. Emotion has no place in a courtroom, and "how I feel" about a crime has no bearing on how it should be dealt with.

[QUOTE=Sprockethead;42141891]If the evidence prooves completely bulletproof, ill feel no pity.[/QUOTE] What extra benefit to society is there to be gained by executing them as opposed to locking them in prison?

[QUOTE=Explosions;42149694]It would make me want to murder those people. Which is exactly the reason why I should not be allowed to influence the investigation or trial. Emotion has no place in a courtroom, and "how I feel" about a crime has no bearing on how it should be dealt with.[/QUOTE] And emotion hasn't played a role in it at all. They were tried under the amended rape laws passed in January this year, which makes it that the death penalty is possible if the victim is left in a vegetative state. These same laws are also going to be used again for the Mumbai case as well. The defense tactic of them allegedly being coerced into a confession is an old one, but other than the lawyer's word, there is no evidence of it which means it holds no water in court. Even despite the fact that the judges could've tried the juvenile as an adult considering the nature lf the crime. They still chose to try him as a juvenile, hence the reduced sentence, knowing the flak they'd get for it. If anything, the law in this situation has done an exceptional job of making sure justice is served according to the laws of the land which is also raising the question here in India amongst many about why it only seems to be applied to the cases that reach the public limelight like this one.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42149733]What extra benefit to society is there to be gained by executing them as opposed to locking them in prison?[/QUOTE] Life imprisonment is just as pointless as death sentences, you're removing somebody's capacity to live. I don't understand the "death sentence is inhumane, just imprison them until death with no chance of parole" mentality. They'd likely be murdered in prison within weeks anyways, the severity of the crime is so staggeringly appalling not even hardened inmates would suffer their presence.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42149733]What extra benefit to society is there to be gained by executing them as opposed to locking them in prison?[/QUOTE] Because we already have a growing risk of prison overpopulation and we don't have for-profit prisons like the US does. That and the crimes against women have reached proportions where the Indian Judicial system feels it necessary to give a sentence that sends a message to the men who contemplate doing this sort of thing. It's ill-advised in that it might also have the reaction of men killing the victims outright and disposing of the, to prevent it coming to light, but such is the wisdom of feeble minded government of my country, a bulk of whose politicians do not even understand the causes of rape and still choose to blame it on the victim.

[QUOTE=snookypookums;42149786]And emotion hasn't played a role in it at all. They were tried under the amended rape laws passed in January this year, which makes it that the death penalty is possible if the victim is left in a vegetative state. These same laws are also going to be used again for the Mumbai case as well. The defense tactic of them allegedly being coerced into a confession is an old one, but other than the lawyer's word, there is no evidence of it which means it holds no water in court. Even despite the fact that the judges could've tried the juvenile as an adult considering the nature lf the crime. They still chose to try him as a juvenile, hence the reduced sentence, knowing the flak they'd get for it. If anything, the law in this situation has done an exceptional job of making sure justice is served according to the laws of the land which is also raising the question here in India amongst many about why it only seems to be applied to the cases that reach the public limelight like this one.[/QUOTE] Didn't say there was anything wrong with the ruling, I said it's wrong to kill people because you're mad at them and it's not a good thing to be a barbarian who feels better when people die.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42149807]Life imprisonment is just as pointless as death sentences, you're removing somebody's capacity to live. I don't understand the "death sentence is inhumane, just imprison them until death with no chance of parole" mentality. They'd likely be murdered in prison within weeks anyways, the severity of the crime is so staggeringly appalling not even hardened inmates would suffer their presence.[/QUOTE] Where did I say "life imprisonment"? [editline]11th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=snookypookums;42149823]Because we already have a growing risk of prison overpopulation and we don't have for-profit prisons like the US does.[/quote] A growing prison population suggests that the population of the country itself is growing. If the rate of prison population growth is bigger than population growth itself, that suggests serious problems with the social base of that society. [quote]That and the crimes against women have reached proportions where the Indian Judicial system feels it necessary to give a sentence that sends a message to the men who contemplate doing this sort of thing.[/quote] Does it work?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42149830]Where did I say "life imprisonment"? [editline]11th September 2013[/editline] A growing prison population suggests that the population of the country itself is growing. If the rate of prison population growth is bigger than population growth itself, that suggests serious problems with the social base of that society. Does it work?[/QUOTE] Only time will tell if it works, considering the ruling has been out since January. It seems like an unlikely deterrent for another reason though - our Judicial system works so slowly, you could swear it was going backward. I know of relatives who are fighting property disputes in court over two generations now without the problem being solved. It's that slow. Then there are other problems as well - the police in some states like Uttar Pradesh actively dissuade women from filing rape cases because they fear it makes their district looks bad. There is far too much stigma on the victim than there is on the perpetrators which is something that society needs to work out for themselves. It's changing, but since India is largely rural where people cling on to misogynistic and outdated beliefs and is very conservatives, all one can really hope is that the next generation knows and is educated better on these matters. Feminine equality and the feminist movement which has been prevalent over the last century in most of the western world is still only starting in India, so it needs time. As for the prisons - I don't have the exact statistics with me right now, but I can assure you that our population growth rate is still going to be and will always be higher than the prison population percentage. The big problem is that resource allocation and infrastructure development develop newer prisons to house more of them is hitting a severe bottleneck.

[QUOTE=snookypookums;42149953]As for the prisons - I don't have the exact statistics with me right now, but I can assure you that our population growth rate is still going to be and will always be higher than the prison population percentage. The big problem is that resource allocation and infrastructure development develop newer prisons to house more of them is hitting a severe bottleneck.[/QUOTE] So you are saying that the population is growing faster than the prison population? I'm thinking that too few prisons are being built to keep up with population growth. Of course, there are probably a whole bunch of petty crimes that get you jailtime, which inflates the figures. Also is there any evidence for the death penalty being a deterrent to crime?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42150000]So you are saying that the population is growing faster than the prison population? I'm thinking that too few prisons are being built to keep up with population growth. Of course, there are probably a whole bunch of petty crimes that get you jailtime, which inflates the figures. Also is there any evidence for the death penalty being a deterrent to crime?[/QUOTE] There doesn't seem to be any evidence that is legitimate enough to conclude that - the death penalty is something that's still fiercely contested. It's very possible that this was done to appease the public's cries for their blood when there were riots outside the hospital where the Delhi rape victim was being treated. You're right on the prison count - as taxpayers, with al the corrtion that goes on we have difficulty even driving on roads without craters in them, prisons are entirely another problem.