Cologne cops defend use of racial profiling on New Year's Eve, Chief praises its success - Polidicks

[quote]Police in the German city of Cologne defended the use of racial profiling during New Year's Eve celebrations on Sunday. Speaking to the press, Police Chief Jürgen Mathies admitted that yes, officers had specifically targeted men who appeared to be of North African extraction to undergo police checks, but said that "for the vast majority, there was a clear threat of criminal activity present." The authorities also came under fire for the use of the shorthand "Nafri" to refer to these men - openly and on social media. "At the central station we have checked hundreds of Nafris," read an update on the official Twitter account for the Cologne branch of North Rhine-Westphalia state police. Security services were under pressure to prevent a repeat of the sexual attacks that occurred last New Year's Eve, when a group of 1,000 men of mostly North African and Middle Eastern origin unexpectedly descended on the square separating the Cologne's famous gothic cathedral from its main train station and molested hundreds of women. This time around, the city deployed some 3,000 police officers, 300 of them in the cathedral square alone. Fireworks, an important tradition in German New Year's celebrations, were banned in the area around the square, with the city opting to present a light installation instead. Mayor Henriette Reker said the increase police presence - which included concrete blocks to prevent an attack in the style of recent atrocities in Berlin and Nice, where trucks were driven into crowds - was "necessary." Revelers in the square seemed cautiously pleased with the outcome, telling DW that they felt safe and wouldn't have let what happened last year dampen their celebrations. Standing by the practice of blatant racial profiling, Mathies said "we had groups of people who were comparably aggressive," to the men who had carried out the attacks last year. According to the police chief, after checking the identification of 650 people, 190 were ordered to leave the area, 92 were taken into custody and 27 were placed under arrest.[/quote] [url]http://www.dw.com/en/cologne-police-defend-use-of-racial-profiling-on-new-years-eve/a-36969904[/url]

I mean it works it seems. There is a reason that places like Tel Aviv airport use it blatantly and still have one of the best security records given the region.

[quote]Police Chief Mathies did say that he thought it was a mistake to use the term on social media, but stood by calling North African men "Nafris" as part of police jargon. He added the caveat that he naturally does not believe that all North Africans are criminals.[/quote] This honestly reads like satire. [editline]1st January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Tudd;51611232]I mean it works it seems. There is a reason that places like Tel Aviv airport use it blatantly and still have one of the best security records given the region.[/QUOTE] Having an authoritarian police state works when it comes to keeping people safe, doesn't mean it's a good thing to have.

Nafris from 'n'orth 'afri'cans?

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611233]This honestly reads like satire. [editline]1st January 2017[/editline] Having an authoritarian police state works when it comes to keeping people safe, doesn't mean it's a good thing to have.[/QUOTE] What's the alternative then

[QUOTE=zenler;51611246]What's the alternative then[/QUOTE] Detaining people based on suspicious activity, like everyone else does.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51611232]I mean it works it seems. There is a reason that places like Tel Aviv airport use it blatantly and still have one of the best security records given the region.[/QUOTE] Ben Gurion airport uses a combination of observing body language and racial profiling. It's more complex than if you're an arab you're pulled aside.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51611343]Ben Gurion airport uses a combination of observing body language and racial profiling. It's more complex than if you're an arab you're pulled aside.[/QUOTE] Like if you're an Arab tapping your foot or checking the place out you're pulled aside?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51611343]Ben Gurion airport uses a combination of observing body language and racial profiling. It's more complex than if you're an arab you're pulled aside.[/QUOTE] Already knew that when posting.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611276]Detaining people based on suspicious activity, like everyone else does.[/QUOTE] Dude, if you have a population that you know is likely to engage in criminal activity it is kinda stupid to ignore. There is more to it then "Oh hey you're brown, go a head and grab the wall for me. Thanks."

[QUOTE=KommradKommisar;51611388]Like if you're an Arab tapping your foot or checking the place out you're pulled aside?[/QUOTE] I'm an ashkenazi orthodox jew and I've been pulled aside by them before. They asked me various questions then let me go after 15 minutes or so.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611276]Detaining people based on suspicious activity, like everyone else does.[/QUOTE] Are you denying the fact that certain races commit more crimes than others?

Finally some common sense.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611276]Detaining people based on suspicious activity, like everyone else does.[/QUOTE] Eh there's a difference between detaining people based solely on race, and detaining them because they're from a region known for instability and violence. It's a blurry line, but it doesn't sound like they did anything wrong yet.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51611583]Eh there's a difference between detaining people based solely on race, and detaining them because they're from a region known for instability and violence. It's a blurry line, but it doesn't sound like they did anything wrong yet.[/QUOTE] Well if group A&A have been causing wayyyyyyy more problems (remember Cologne New Year last year) then group G - then yes by common sense you need to do it.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51611620]US Congress should have used your opinion on this, wanna send a memo? Maybe theyll amend the 4th Amendment to exclude ""groups"".[/QUOTE] So you are saying it was wrong by the Cologne police to do this?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51611620]US Congress should have used your opinion on this, wanna send a memo? Maybe theyll amend the 4th Amendment to exclude ""groups"".[/QUOTE] Keyword is unreasonable, which has a flexible definition and could hold up in court under the right circumstances. You have a large number of people from a third world country who have committed a lot of crime including a high profile sex attack with over one thousand perpetrators, so I would argue that questioning or monitoring people from these countries is not unreasonable.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51611688]Keyword is unreasonable, which has a flexible definition and could hold up in court under the right circumstances. You have a large number of people from a third world country who have committed a lot of crime including a high profile sex attack with over one thousand perpetrators, so I would argue that questioning or monitoring people from these countries is not unreasonable.[/QUOTE] Totally agreed. You got to think of the public and your own citizens safety over all.

[QUOTE=MR-X;51611396]Dude, if you have a population that you know is likely to engage in criminal activity it is kinda stupid to ignore. There is more to it then "Oh hey you're brown, go a head and grab the wall for me. Thanks."[/QUOTE] Yeah it's "Oh hey you're brown. I'm going to question you because there have been other brownies in the past stirring up shit!" [QUOTE=sannys;51611475]Are you denying the fact that certain races commit more crimes than others?[/QUOTE] No? I'm denying that it's somehow appropriate to question people just because people with the same skin color have committed more crimes.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51611744][URL="http://www.factcheck.org/2016/09/is-stop-and-frisk-unconstitutional/"]Judge Scheindlin, [/URL]the Judge that found NY stop-and-frisk unconstituitional, "...did not order the city police to end its stop-and-frisk program. Instead, she ordered remedies to ensure that it was carried out without violating the Constitution." - this is what I am talking about - while in Germany constituition isnt the same, the action is and IMO the response should be as well: Make sure it actually isnt racial profiling and has reasons besides that. ,[/QUOTE] NYC stop-and-frisk is not anywhere near the same thing, the German Police are questioning and searching people from North African countries because they are very unstable countries and as a result have bred unstable people. It's not about race (and if it is, they're covering their asses very well), it's about the statistics of people from those countries. For another comparison, you bet your ass that British authorities kept eyes on Irish people during the Troubles. What was being done in New York City was corrupt cops were abusing their power to go harass black people all day, and it was driving the wedge between law enforcement and communities even deeper.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611780]Yeah it's "Oh hey you're brown. I'm going to question you because there have been other brownies in the past stirring up shit!" No? I'm denying that it's somehow appropriate to question people just because people with the same skin color have committed more crimes.[/QUOTE] We should just let people get assaulted so we don't hurt peoples feelings. Here is the deal - last year there was mass assaults. The people they arrested met a certain demographic. So this year they worked to prevent crime by monitoring and reacting to activity of said demographic. Lets say a crime spree takes place, multiple rapes. The police determined through investigation that the subject who committed the crime is a white male. Based on forensic evidence and the victims statements they determined it was a white male, mid 20's. Based on his patterns they determined this individual picks and assaults women in town square. They know based on all the information this rapist strikes in this area so they begin monitoring all individuals who meet this description. Long story short they just created a Criminal profile/offender profile. Did they target white people because they were white? No they targeted individuals who met the profile. Racial profiling is profiling people and saying they committed a crime based on racism and stereotypes. Same concept applies in what we're talking about. They took all the demographics and information from last year assaults and created a criminal profile. They didn't just say hey lets go fuck with some Africans today. They reacted to what they believed to be suspicious actions and investigated accordingly. Criminal profiling is such a thing ya know. What should we do? Wait and let people get assaulted and raped so we don't hurt some peoples feelings? The German police REACTED based on last year events.

The sad truth is, racial profiling (and profiling in general) work in the [I]short[/I] term. Even mildly extended use of these will increase crime over time and obviously lead to racist societal norms.

[QUOTE=MR-X;51611837]We should just let people get assaulted so we don't hurt peoples feelings.[/quote] I'm not basing this on feeling. But sure lets strawman anyways. [QUOTE=MR-X;51611837]Here is the deal - last year there was mass assaults. The people they arrested met a certain demographic. So this year they worked to prevent crime by monitoring and reacting to activity of said demographic. Lets say a crime spree takes place, multiple rapes. The police determined through investigation that the subject who committed the crime is a white male. Based on forensic evidence and the victims statements they determined it was a white male, mid 20's. Based on his patterns they determined this individual picks and assaults women in town square. They know based on all the information this rapist strikes in this area so they begin monitoring all individuals who meet this description. Long story short they just created a Criminal profile/offender profile. Did they target white people because they were white? No they targeted individuals who met the profile. Racial profiling is profiling people and saying they committed a crime based on racism and stereotypes. Same concept applies in what we're talking about. They took all the demographics and information from last year assaults and created a criminal profile. They didn't just say hey lets go fuck with some Africans today. They reacted to what they believed to be suspicious actions and investigated accordingly. Criminal profiling is such a thing ya know. What should we do? Wait and let people get assaulted and raped so we don't hurt some peoples feelings? The German police REACTED based on last year events.[/QUOTE] Thats is incredibly different from the racial profiling going on and you know it. I'm fine with criminal descriptions, if someone committed a crime and they need a description then go ahead use everything about him to catch the criminal. The racial profiling here isn't "We're looking for a criminal", it's "We're looking for people who might commit crimes"

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611870]I'm not basing this on feeling. But sure lets strawman anyways. Thats is incredibly different from the racial profiling going on and you know it. I'm fine with criminal descriptions, if someone committed a crime and they need a description then go ahead use everything about him to catch the criminal. The racial profiling here isn't "We're looking for a criminal", it's "We're looking for people who might commit crimes"[/QUOTE] Then if you got it figured out please explain how you would combat mass sexual assault. You can keep saying it is bad, but is it? What reason other then "its racial profiling." Do you not know or understand how policing works? There are people who sit and look at police work through an analytical lens - its called Predictive policing. You should look into it. Point is, what do you do? You're damned if you don't, damned if you do. The police deployed a strategy to prevent what had happened last year. If it works then refine it, if it doesn't change it. Germany is highly unstable and they got a lot of internal issues which stem from the mass migration of people. Same with other EU countries.

What they did was racially profile people. End of story. Would that fly in the US (under the same circumstances)? Absolutely not. You'd need a reason to stop each one of the 600 people they did. And it would have to be more than "youre brown and brown people attacked others last year"

I'd rather police focus on keeping the public safe by focusing on people coming from an unstable, completely different country/culture, rather than focusing more on being politically correct. It's shitty and maybe 'racist', sure, but it's better to hurt some feelings and save lives than not. imo anyway

[QUOTE=MR-X;51611876]Then if you got it figured out please explain how you would combat mass sexual assault.[/QUOTE] Ugh. Just because I don't have a solution doesn't make the currently existing solution good. I can only say that a lot of this could've been prevented if Merkel wasn't a dumbfuck and didn't have a grasp on the situation. I'm not asking for a perfect solution, I'm asking for a solution that doesn't spit in the face of law and feed into other people's paranoia.

[QUOTE=MR-X;51611876]Then if you got it figured out please explain how you would combat mass sexual assault. [/QUOTE] allow people to defend themselves

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51611919]Ugh. Just because I don't have a solution doesn't make the currently existing solution good. I can only say that a lot of this could've been prevented if Merkel wasn't a dumbfuck and didn't have a grasp on the situation. I'm not asking for a perfect solution, I'm asking for a solution that doesn't spit in the face of law and feed into other people's paranoia.[/QUOTE] All policy is relative. To say that you have no alternative actually does take away any power behind your critique. (Unless your argument is to accept higher crime rates in the name of true equality under the law. People might disagree with this argument, but it is legitimate.)

[QUOTE=Code3Response;51611888]What they did was racially profile people. End of story. Would that fly in the US (under the same circumstances)? Absolutely not. You'd need a reason to stop each one of the 600 people they did. And it would have to be more than "youre brown and brown people attacked others last year"[/QUOTE] I actually think it probably would fly in the US if a subgroup representing 2% of a larger group was responsible for 22% of the crime in that larger group. In this case it's North African immigrants vs all immigrants, but you could apply that to other (sub)groups. Sauce according to reddit. [url]https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bka-kriminalitaet-fluechtlinge-103.html[/url] Another [url=https://www.thelocal.de/20160113/crime-rates-different-north-africa-syria-migrants]source[/url] said that 40% of those coming from the Maghreb got into trouble with police. Both of those numbers are simply staggering. It's disproportionate to anything we ever see in the US. (Which is actually kind of ironic really, considering how much blatant racism we have in several police departments in larger cities, particularly Chicago.) If the numbers ever get that disproportionate, I'd argue that it's unethical not to profile. It's simply either a waste of resources, or needlessly endangering your citizens if you don't. As long as you do not pointlessly detain people without reason, close monitoring is fine. If you don't want to treat people differently when profiling is clearly [i]this[/i] effective, you'd better be willing to pay the exorbitant taxes required to maintain a sufficient police presence, because sacrificing the safety of your populace is fucking inexcusable.