[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons[/url]
[QUOTE]Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons.
The "top secret" minutes of meetings between senior officials from the two countries in 1975 show that South Africa's defence minister, PW Botha, asked for the warheads and Shimon Peres, then Israel's defence minister and now its president, responded by offering them "in three sizes". The two men also signed a broad-ranging agreement governing military ties between the two countries that included a clause declaring that "the very existence of this agreement" was to remain secret.
The documents, uncovered by an American academic, Sasha Polakow-Suransky, in research for a book on the close relationship between the two countries, provide evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons despite its policy of "ambiguity" in neither confirming nor denying their existence.
The Israeli authorities tried to stop South Africa's post-apartheid government declassifying the documents at Polakow-Suransky's request and the revelations will be an embarrassment, particularly as this week's nuclear non-proliferation talks in New York focus on the Middle East.
They will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted.
A spokeswoman for Peres today said the report was baseless and there were "never any negotiations" between the two countries. She did not comment on the authenticity of the documents.
South African documents show that the apartheid-era military wanted the missiles as a deterrent and for potential strikes against neighbouring states.
The documents show both sides met on 31 March 1975. Polakow-Suransky writes in his book published in the US this week, The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's secret alliance with apartheid South Africa. At the talks Israeli officials "formally offered to sell South Africa some of the nuclear-capable Jericho missiles in its arsenal".
Among those attending the meeting was the South African military chief of staff, Lieutenant General RF Armstrong. He immediately drew up a memo in which he laid out the benefits of South Africa obtaining the Jericho missiles but only if they were fitted with nuclear weapons.
The memo, marked "top secret" and dated the same day as the meeting with the Israelis, has previously been revealed but its context was not fully understood because it was not known to be directly linked to the Israeli offer on the same day and that it was the basis for a direct request to Israel. In it, Armstrong writes: "In considering the merits of a weapon system such as the one being offered, certain assumptions have been made: a) That the missiles will be armed with nuclear warheads manufactured in RSA (Republic of South Africa) or acquired elsewhere."
But South Africa was years from being able to build atomic weapons. A little more than two months later, on 4 June, Peres and Botha met in Zurich. By then the Jericho project had the codename Chalet.
The top secret minutes of the meeting record that: "Minister Botha expressed interest in a limited number of units of Chalet subject to the correct payload being available." The document then records: "Minister Peres said the correct payload was available in three sizes. Minister Botha expressed his appreciation and said that he would ask for advice." The "three sizes" are believed to refer to the conventional, chemical and nuclear weapons.
The use of a euphemism, the "correct payload", reflects Israeli sensitivity over the nuclear issue and would not have been used had it been referring to conventional weapons. It can also only have meant nuclear warheads as Armstrong's memorandum makes clear South Africa was interested in the Jericho missiles solely as a means of delivering nuclear weapons.
In addition, the only payload the South Africans would have needed to obtain from Israel was nuclear. The South Africans were capable of putting together other warheads.
Botha did not go ahead with the deal in part because of the cost. In addition, any deal would have to have had final approval by Israel's prime minister and it is uncertain it would have been forthcoming.
South Africa eventually built its own nuclear bombs, albeit possibly with Israeli assistance. But the collaboration on military technology only grew over the following years. South Africa also provided much of the yellowcake uranium that Israel required to develop its weapons.
The documents confirm accounts by a former South African naval commander, Dieter Gerhardt – jailed in 1983 for spying for the Soviet Union. After his release with the collapse of apartheid, Gerhardt said there was an agreement between Israel and South Africa called Chalet which involved an offer by the Jewish state to arm eight Jericho missiles with "special warheads". Gerhardt said these were atomic bombs. But until now there has been no documentary evidence of the offer.
Some weeks before Peres made his offer of nuclear warheads to Botha, the two defence ministers signed a covert agreement governing the military alliance known as Secment. It was so secret that it included a denial of its own existence: "It is hereby expressly agreed that the very existence of this agreement... shall be secret and shall not be disclosed by either party".
The agreement also said that neither party could unilaterally renounce it.
The existence of Israel's nuclear weapons programme was revealed by Mordechai Vanunu to the Sunday Times in 1986. He provided photographs taken inside the Dimona nuclear site and gave detailed descriptions of the processes involved in producing part of the nuclear material but provided no written documentation.
Documents seized by Iranian students from the US embassy in Tehran after the 1979 revolution revealed the Shah expressed an interest to Israel in developing nuclear arms. But the South African documents offer confirmation Israel was in a position to arm Jericho missiles with nuclear warheads.
Israel pressured the present South African government not to declassify documents obtained by Polakow-Suransky. "The Israeli defence ministry tried to block my access to the Secment agreement on the grounds it was sensitive material, especially the signature and the date," he said. "The South Africans didn't seem to care; they blacked out a few lines and handed it over to me. The ANC government is not so worried about protecting the dirty laundry of the apartheid regime's old allies."[/quote]
[img]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/5/23/1274641952654/The-secret-military-agree-006.jpg[/img]
"The secret military agreement signed by Shimon Peres, now president of Israel, and P W Botha of South Africa."
I don't think this warrants more actions against Israel and the needs for it to disarm, but I do think this doesn't put it in good light.
I'd much rather keep nuclear weapons but if international pressure will rise the need to disarm will soon be inevitable.
What the fuck.
This is fucking North Korea shit, what the fucking bullocks.
Not big surprise. It's been suspected that South Africa conducted a nuclear test for many years now, and everyone has always assumed that Israel had nuclear weapons, likely sold to them by the US.
Late.
Israel's one of the registered nuclear powers of the world.
Yeah but they are America's butt buddy so the media don't care.
A surprisingly balanced thread BurnEmDown.
[editline]10:45PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;22152126]Late.
Israel's one of the registered nuclear powers of the world.[/QUOTE]
They're not 'registered'.
Wouldn't surprise me at all. Pretty much every country near Israel wants them dead. They probably want some nuclear dick waving capabilities.
they're a threat
lets nuke them
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;22152126]Late.
Israel's one of the registered nuclear powers of the world.[/QUOTE]
Yeah everyone pretty much knew about it but it wasn't official until now with documents proving everything.
[editline]12:51AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;22152141]A surprisingly balanced thread BurnEmDown.[/QUOTE]
I would've published all those articles "against" Israel like Netanyahu saying 9/11 was good for Israel and the one about the blockade in Gaza if I had heard about them before seeing them here.
This is the first I got a chance to post.
Israel....just stop.
Please :saddowns:
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22152192]Yeah everyone pretty much knew about it but it wasn't official until now with documents proving everything.
[editline]12:51AM[/editline]
I would've published all those articles "against" Israel like Netanyahu saying 9/11 was good for Israel and the one about the blockade in Gaza if I had heard about them before seeing them here.
This is the first I got a chance to post.[/QUOTE]
It's always been "official". They've never declared that they've had them, but it's a well-known fact.
This proves that they were actually trying to pawn them off to racist regimes, not just use them for self-defense.
[QUOTE=TheIceman;22152307]Israel....just stop.
Please :saddowns:[/QUOTE]
So a world power shouldn't be allowed to have nukes just because you don't like them?
What.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;22153207]So a world power shouldn't be allowed to have nukes just because you don't like them?
What.[/QUOTE]
Having nukes is one thing, offering them to South Africa is kind of irresponsible dontcha' think?
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;22153207]So a world power shouldn't be allowed to have nukes just because you don't like them?
What.[/QUOTE]
You're saying everyone should have nukes. It's like letting convicted criminals buy guns. Or giving that retarded kid in Art class the sharp scissors.
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;22153207]So a world power shouldn't be allowed to have nukes just because you don't like them?
What.[/QUOTE]
Israel isn't exactly the most balanced nation on the face of the earth, while I don't give a fuck that the have nukes, they can't sell them or deal them out as they might be planning to, and they can't use them. It's a "bigger stick" deal again.
I heard the other side of the story that South Africa came to Israel wanting them and Israel said no.
So now im just stuck in the middle
[QUOTE=Gmod_Fan77;22152126]Late.
Israel's one of the registered nuclear powers of the world.[/QUOTE]
lol registered
they won't even admit they have nuclear weapons
Sweden and South Africa teamed up in the Cold War to develop nukes but agreed to disarm completely; this is the only time a nation has voluntarily given up its nuclear weapons program.
[QUOTE=SBD;22156630]Sweden and South Africa teamed up in the Cold War to develop nukes but agreed to disarm completely; this is the only time a nation has voluntarily given up its nuclear weapons program.[/QUOTE]
Ukraine?
[QUOTE=Regulas021;22156660]Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
After a brief wiki search looks like the Ukraine had some nukes left in their territory after the break up of the Soviet Union, which they sent to Russia for dismantling. My mistake.
Israel has had nuke for fucking ever, they've just never admitted it. They were like the 5th country to get nukes and had support by the US.
Fuck, this pretty much old news for the international community.
Who gives a flying fuck?! The U.S. is so nosy and hypocritical, they are saying it's bad for other countries to have nuclear weapons yet THEY HAVE THE FUCKING LEADING POWER IN NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY! Like what the fuck, you stupid hypocritical bastard!
Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone knew Israel has nuclear weapons. If they didn't have them they'd be attacked by their rivals.
I was under the impression that SA and Isreal had "teamed up" a while back with Israel supplying the brains while SA the land to create the weapons, under national pressure SA had fallen out after completing something like 3 or 4 nukes.
I'll try and find the video.
[QUOTE=Zattatar;22158609]Who gives a flying fuck?! The U.S. is so nosy and hypocritical, they are saying it's bad for other countries to have nuclear weapons yet THEY HAVE THE FUCKING LEADING POWER IN NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY! Like what the fuck, you stupid hypocritical bastard![/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure you're fucking retarded.
It isn't THAT Israel has nukes, it's that they're [b]fucking undocumented, and unregistered, and they're selling them to nations with hazardous political agendas and to countries that are not ready to be nuclear powers.[/b]
For fucks sakes you ignorant shit, the US gave Israel nukes I do believe.
[quote]Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime[/quote]
oh you cunts, the fucking apartheid regime?
where's a Jewish mother when you need her
"selling nukes to the apartheid regime? Ephraim you should be ashamed of yourself! mom i'm the president now, you're embarrassing me! oh shame on you treating your mother this way, this is what i get for giving you life."
[QUOTE=Zattatar;22158609]Who gives a flying fuck?! The U.S. is so nosy and hypocritical, they are saying it's bad for other countries to have nuclear weapons yet THEY HAVE THE FUCKING LEADING POWER IN NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY! Like what the fuck, you stupid hypocritical bastard![/QUOTE]
Yeah, and you know where the uranium that we use to make our nukes comes from?
:canada:
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;22158729]I'm pretty sure you're fucking retarded.
It isn't THAT Israel has nukes, it's that they're [b]fucking undocumented, and unregistered, and they're selling them to nations with hazardous political agendas and to countries that are not ready to be nuclear powers.
For fucks sakes you ignorant shit, the US gave Israel nukes I do believe.[/QUOTE]
SHIT! Sorry, I didn't read the entire thing, I'm sorry. I just assumed because of the thread title that the US was angry at Israel for having nuclear weapons.
Anyway, I still do believe the US is nosy and hypocritical.
[QUOTE=Zattatar;22158760]SHIT! Sorry, I didn't read the entire thing, I'm sorry. I just assumed because of the thread title that the US was angry at Israel for having nuclear weapons.
Anyway, I still do believe the US is nosy and hypocritical.[/QUOTE]
Every nation is nosy, every nation is hypocritical. It's human nature. Governments don't transcend nature.
I'm very concerned by the fact they offered them to the apartheid regime. Bad, bad, bad.
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