America doesn’t have more crime than other rich countries. It just has more guns.
167 replies, posted
[QUOTE]Wednesday's Virginia shooting, like so many shootings before it, seems likely to raise a debate we've had many times before: Why does the US have such a high rate of gun murders, by far the highest in the developed world? Is it because of guns, or is there something else going on? Maybe America is just more prone to crime, say, because of income inequality or cultural differences?
A landmark 1999 study actually tried to answer this question. Its findings — which scholars say still hold up — are that [B]America doesn't really have a significantly higher rate of crime compared to similar countries. But that crime is much likelier to be lethal: American criminals just kill more people than do their counterparts in other developed countries.[/B] And guns appear to be a big part of what makes this difference.
They found, pretty definitively, that the conventional wisdom was wrong. "[B]Rates of common property crimes in the United States are comparable to those reported in many other Western industrial nations, but rates of lethal violence in the United States are much higher[/B]," they write. "Violence is not a crime problem."
Zimring and Hawkins determined this by looking at 20 developed countries' overall crime rate and rates of violent death. [B]They found virtually no connection between the two, indicating that a country's level of violent death wasn't determined by its overall crime levels[/B]:
[QUOTE]The lowest death rate country (England) has a crime rate just over average. The next lowest violence nation is Japan, which has the lowest crime rate also. The third lowest death rate country is the Netherlands, in the highest crime rate group.[/QUOTE]
[B]This is where guns enter the story. The mere presence of firearms, according to Zimring and Hawkins, makes a merely tense situation more likely to turn deadly[/B]. When a gang member argues with another gang member, or a robber sticks up a liquor store, there's always a risk that the situation can escalate to some kind of violence. [B]But when people have a handheld tool that is specially engineered for violently killing, escalation to murder becomes much, much more likely[/B].
And indeed, that's what Zimring and Hawkins's data found. "A series of specific comparisons of the death rates from property crime and assault in New York City and London show how enormous differences in death risk can be explained even while general patterns are similar," they explain. "[B]A preference for crimes of personal force and the willingness and ability to use guns in robbery make similar levels of property crime fifty-four times as deadly in New York City as in London.[/B]"
"The proliferation of off-the-shelf handguns is really our problem," Pollack says. "If we regulated guns the way that England regulates guns, we would certainly have a much lower homicide rate."
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[URL="http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe"]Source[/URL]
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-SNIP-
Guns kill people? Thank you, study.
[QUOTE=TheCreeper;48574568]
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"Gun related deaths" which means you've included suicides which of course is going to be higher when people have the option of choosing between hanging themselves from the ceiling or eating their gun.
That graph looks far less impressive if you make it a comparison of guns per xxx people to number of [I]total[/I] murders.
[QUOTE=download;48574586]"Gun related deaths" which means you've included suicides which of course is going to be higher when people have the option of choosing between hanging themselves from the ceiling or eating their gun.
That graph looks far less impressive if you make it a comparison of guns per xxx people to number of [I]total[/I] murders.[/QUOTE]
I [I]bet[/I] you some dense mother fucker out there is gonna argue "Well if they didn't have a gun they might not kill themselves"
[QUOTE=Kylel999;48574595]I [I]bet[/I] you some dense mother fucker out there is gonna argue "Well if they didn't have a gun they might not kill themselves"[/QUOTE]
Eh, there is some evidence that a very small number of people will talk themselves out of it they take time to prepare a suicide such as finding some rope or driving to a bridge.
It's been a while since I looked a the data but I think it was a very small number. Also not really relevant to the overall gun debate. It's more in the "treating depression" area.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;48574595]I [I]bet[/I] you some dense mother fucker out there is gonna argue "Well if they didn't have a gun they might not kill themselves"[/QUOTE]
If I remember right the statistics for suicides went down after the Australian gun ban.
A gun is just a tool that makes killing yourself or others really, really easy.
As always, what matters is the tool holding the gun, not the gun itself. AA12 or Derringer, if you give someone any kind of gun and the all-consuming want to end someone's life, they'll do it, no matter how difficult it is.
You'd probably get the same reaction if you gave them a machete or a hammer, though. Probably.
I really think more should be done to keep assholes from getting guns and I also think more should be done to put assholes who get guns and be assholes with them away for a very, very long period of time. America's waaaaay too far into gun proliferation to expediently regulate, it's going to be a game of generations, now. That said, I think now's a good a time as any to get started.
I don't know where to begin, though.
[QUOTE=download;48574586]"Gun related deaths" which means you've included suicides which of course is going to be higher when people have the option of choosing between hanging themselves from the ceiling or eating their gun.
That graph looks far less impressive if you make it a comparison of guns per xxx people to number of [I]total[/I] murders.[/QUOTE]
What about the other graph specifically geared towards homicides.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;48574595]I [I]bet[/I] you some dense mother fucker out there is gonna argue "Well if they didn't have a gun they might not kill themselves"[/QUOTE]
What's dense about that? It's very logical. If you feel suicidal and have a quick way out(gun) you're more likely to take it than if your only options are potentially pain inducing or have a high chance of failure.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48574651]What's dense about that? It's very logical. If you feel suicidal and have a quick way out(gun) you're more likely to take it than if your only options are potentially pain inducing or have a high chance of failure.[/QUOTE]
I think he more means people are directly going to blame guns for people killing themselves and not the mental anguish or trauma that made them seek to acquire one. Yeah, it's much quicker to off yourself with a gun, but taking away the gun doesn't make the hurting stop.
"Crime" is a very broad term. Guns aren't always involved, required or any helpful at all.
Either way, I don't mind the idea of guns as long as people with a bad history or mental health issues don't get ahold of them easily or at all.
[QUOTE=Sonador;48574658]I think he more means people are directly going to blame guns for people killing themselves and not the mental anguish or trauma that made them seek to acquire one. Yeah, it's much quicker to off yourself with a gun, but taking away the gun doesn't make the hurting stop.[/QUOTE]Usually taking away the easy methods makes people think twice, even about suicide.
-snip-
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48574670]Usually taking away the easy methods makes people think twice, even about suicide.[/QUOTE]
Right, but the gun isn't going to drive you to suicide. I used to be pretty strongly suicidal until I changed my living arrangements; I carry a gun to work 5 days a week (and did during that period) and I haven't offed myself yet.
The circumstances, at least in my case, of using a gun to kill oneself are much more the stimuli that propels your suicidal impulses, not necessarily the availability of a gun.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;48574595]I [I]bet[/I] you some dense mother fucker out there is gonna argue "Well if they didn't have a gun they might not kill themselves"[/QUOTE]
But it's absolutely true. Guns are an incredibly effective way to commit suicide. Having one in the house means that spur of the moment suicide attempts are both more likely to occur (because grabbing an gun and pulling the trigger requires far less deliberation or action than most other methods), and more likely to be successful.
[QUOTE=Sonador;48574688]Right, but the gun isn't going to drive you to suicide. I used to be pretty strongly suicidal until I changed my living arrangements; I carry a gun to work 5 days a week (and did during that period) and I haven't offed myself yet.
The circumstances, at least in my case, of using a gun to kill oneself are much more the stimuli that propels your suicidal impulses, not necessarily the availability of a gun.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I agree with you. A gun is a gun, it won't make you kill yourself or someone else. Only you do.
Guns are strictly prohibited here, we have double the deaths by firearms the U.S have. :downs:
It's blacks tho. Isn't that obvious by now?
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=SaltyWaters;48574717]It's blacks tho. Isn't that obvious by now?[/QUOTE]
what was the point of this post tbh
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;48574709]Guns are strictly prohibited here, we have double the deaths by firearms the U.S have. :downs:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://tocaevents.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/20121201-231818.jpg[/IMG]
Not to mention that you're number 60 when it comes to GDP per capita, and despite the US trying very hard your GINI coefficient is also appreciably higher. Just because you have a ban doesn't mean you don't have guns.
I mean good job US you beat Brazil.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;48574595]I [I]bet[/I] you some dense mother fucker out there is gonna argue "Well if they didn't have a gun they might not kill themselves"[/QUOTE]
This is pretty personal, but to be honest, I've opted out of suicide before [I]because[/I] I couldn't find a gun. It just seemed like the quickest method.
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;48574709]Guns are strictly prohibited here, we have double the deaths by firearms the U.S have. :downs:[/QUOTE]
[I]Brazil[/I]
[QUOTE=plunger435;48574625]If I remember right the statistics for suicides went down after the Australian gun ban.[/QUOTE]
It checks out: :incredible:
[QUOTE]There was a decline in rates of shooting, gassing, poisoning and drowning in males and a decline in shooting, gassing, jumping from a heiight and drowning among females, but an increase in hanging by both males and females in the decade 1998–2007 when the compared to 1988–1997. There was significant variation in the rates of and trends in methods of suicide between the states and territories of Australia between 1988–1997 and 1998–2007.
[url]https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2010/192/8/suicide-australia-meta-analysis-rates-and-methods-suicide-between-1988-and-2007[/url][/QUOTE]
There's more information from the ABS ([URL="http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/d2c9296f8d9c01b1ca2570ec000e2f5f!OpenDocument"]1[/URL], [URL="http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4125.0main+features3240Jan%202013"]2[/URL]), and the [URL="http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi052.pdf"]AIC[/URL]
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;48574741][IMG]http://tocaevents.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/20121201-231818.jpg[/IMG]
Not to mention that you're number 60 when it comes to GDP per capita, and despite the US trying very hard your GINI coefficient is also appreciably higher. Just because you have a ban doesn't mean you don't have guns.
I mean good job US you beat Brazil.[/QUOTE]
Isn't it also true that the US has much higher rates of poverty than other "rich countries"?
[QUOTE=cdr248;48574645]What about the other graph specifically geared towards homicides.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't look that bad for the US imho., and that graph is for the year 2012.
Generally, Americans handle their guns responsibly enough, or so much I've gathered. Despite all the cop killings, or cops killing people. Sad things is, sometimes people do seem to get shot and killed over what could be argued as absolutely nothing. With almost 1 gun per every citizen, cops are probably on higher alert than your average Finnish cop when pulling over some dude(s) in a car.
[QUOTE=Kylel999;48574595]I [I]bet[/I] you some dense mother fucker out there is gonna argue "Well if they didn't have a gun they might not kill themselves"[/QUOTE]
I'd be dead if I had access to one at two or three points in my life. Guns make killing things as easy as moving your finger an inch or so.
District of Columbia gun ownership: 3.6 percent. Gun murders per 100k: 16.5.
Maine gun ownership: 40.5 percent. Gun murders per 100k: 0.8.
How does this even happen?
[QUOTE=Riutet;48574917]District of Columbia gun ownership: 3.6 percent. Gun murders per 100k: 16.5.
Maine gun ownership: 40.5 percent. Gun murders per 100k: 0.8.
How does this even happen?[/QUOTE]
It happens when guns alone aren't causing murders. There are other factors at play but people advocating to ban guns don't want to admit that guns are not the problem. The numbers make that clear enough.
[QUOTE=Explosions;48574884]Isn't it also true that the US has much higher rates of poverty than other "rich countries"?[/QUOTE]
Oh, god, we're just doomed, aren't we?
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