The Spanish Government “will not allow” and “will not negotiate” on Catalonia’s self-determination v - Polidicks

[quote][b]The majority of Catalans want to vote[/b] According to the last electoral results and opinion polls, around[b] 80% of Catalans would like a self-determination vote to take place.[/b] According to the polls,[b] between 50% and 57% would vote ‘yes’ to independence and between 20% and 25% would vote ‘no’.[/b] Besides, the civil society grass-root organisations that are behind the two massive independence demonstrations in 2012 and 2013 – which gathered around 1.5 million people each – announced this evening they were accepting the question the way it was agreed among the Catalan parties. These organisations (ANC, Òmnium Cultural and AMI) had been pressuring to have a clear question like that of Scotland’s referendum. However, they are satisfied since it allows them to directly vote for independence and they announced they will work for the victory of “the double yes”.[/quote] [url]http://www.catalannewsagency.com/politics/item/the-spanish-government-will-not-allow-and-will-not-negotiate-on-catalonia-s-self-determination-vote[/url] [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Tram_235_de_la_via_catalana_per_la_independ%C3%A8ncia_%28section_235_of_the_Catalan_Way_towards_independence%29.JPG[/t] [i]Baltic Way emulation. 1.6 million participants in a human chain that stretched 480 km (300 miles) [/i]

How oppressive of you, Spain. They ought to hold the vote anyway and then declare independence. What's Spain going to do, invade?

To put it into prospective. The Catalans were basically their own country and had been historically governed as such until Franco. The only reason they're a part of Spain is because of a fucking wedding. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43193706]How oppressive of you, Spain. They ought to hold the vote anyway and then declare independence. What's Spain going to do, invade?[/QUOTE] I honestly hope the Spanish do something really drastic. Not because of a desire to see war, but because it might be the only way at this point. Not exactly a good picture to see one of Europe's leading economic areas (Barcelona) shot at and occupied because of peaceful protests.

If you ban peaceful routes to self determination, what is left?

Well this is exactly what should happen when a government fails at governing, People leave and do it themselves.

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43193769]If you ban peaceful routes to self determination, what is left?[/QUOTE] If you make peaceful change impossible, you pretty much make violent change inevitable.

They did a Baltic way for fucks sake.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43193791]If you make peaceful change impossible, you pretty much make violent change inevitable.[/QUOTE] Aren't you the guy who constantly criticizes the American Revolution?

The referendum would have to be national though, surely, because an independent Catalonia would affect Spain as a whole. I wonder if that's why Spain doesn't want to give one.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43193822]Aren't you the guy who constantly criticizes the American Revolution?[/QUOTE] The American revolution was at first, a movement for autonomy that got fucked up because Benjamin Franklin didn't do his job right and failed to talk to the British crown about the colonies issues. From there it was hijacked by American business owners who saw it as a way to peddle their crap instead of British crap. It's a bit funny. Americans hijacked the flag of the east india company, and it ended up working out since they both had 13 stripes on them. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;43193838]The referendum would have to be national though, surely, because an independent Catalonia would affect Spain as a whole. I wonder if that's why Spain doesn't want to give one.[/QUOTE] That doesn't make sense though. That's disproportional. It's like if England decided Scots independence in a referendum. One of the reasons that the Catalans want to break away is because there's a fucking large amount of Spanish nationalism and outright hate levied against them by the rest of the country. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] Spain's a sinking ship and if Catalonia is all that's holding them up, I think that the people can decide if they want to be Catalan or Spanish. The Catalans constantly have more and more taxes levied on them than any other Spanish province.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43193822]Aren't you the guy who constantly criticizes the American Revolution?[/QUOTE] Well it was a pretty violent war badly mismanaged by both sides. The Americans demanded too much and the British used too heavy a hand in response. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] The war ended mainly because the colonies were a deadweight, even before the war.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43193706]What's Spain going to do, invade?[/QUOTE] lol with what money?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43193926]Well it was a pretty violent war badly mismanaged by both sides. The Americans demanded too much and the British used too heavy a hand in response. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] The war ended mainly because the colonies were a deadweight, even before the war.[/QUOTE] I'm an American ExPat and I still laugh at how our entire history was basically just an extreme amount of luck within our first couple of years. We wouldn't have gone anywhere if Napoleon didn't sell us the middle of the USA. And the entire west coast being taken by force, that's pretty great too.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43194158]I'm an American ExPat and I still laugh at how our entire history was basically just an extreme amount of luck within our first couple of years. We wouldn't have gone anywhere if Napoleon didn't sell us the middle of the USA. And the entire west coast being taken by force, that's pretty great too.[/QUOTE] It nearly went the same way as most other countries that gained independence in the new world.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43194158]I'm an American ExPat and I still laugh at how our entire history was basically just an extreme amount of luck within our first couple of years. We wouldn't have gone anywhere if Napoleon didn't sell us the middle of the USA. And the entire west coast being taken by force, that's pretty great too.[/QUOTE] The French and much of Europe saw the opportunity to fuck with us.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43194190]It nearly went the same way as most other countries that gained independence in the new world.[/QUOTE] Yep. If it weren't for Hamilton and Jefferson, there would have been civil war between the states every 3 days. It was basically the HRE for the first couple of years.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43193721] The only reason they're a part of Spain is because of a fucking wedding. [/QUOTE] Even when ruled by a single monarch they were treated as a separate kingdom with their own courts and laws. The Spanish King basically controlled like 6 different kingdoms at certain points in history and didn't really focus on building them up. Its really the reason for Spain being behind the rest of Europe.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43194388]Even when ruled by a single monarch they were treated as a separate kingdom with their own courts and laws. The Spanish King basically controlled like 6 different kingdoms at certain points in history and didn't really focus on building them up. Its really the reason for Spain being behind the rest of Europe.[/QUOTE] And why you look at Anglo dominated colonies, they're some of the largest economies in the world. You look at Central America and south America. Mexico is getting there, but the only real Spanish speaking power is Argentina, though while they speak Spanish, they were mainly Italian migrants and such. Brazil is decent because they built it up after the Napoleon invasion, while Spain just kind of was like. LOOK AT THIS ISLAND I HAVE IN THE PACIFIC, LOOK AT ALL THIS.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43194678] Brazil is decent because they built it up after the Napoleon invasion, while Spain just kind of was like. LOOK AT THIS ISLAND I HAVE IN THE PACIFIC, LOOK AT ALL THIS.[/QUOTE] Those colonies are backwards because of the focus on cash crops and gold. The US South is a good example of this. I was talking about the home countries. England used its colonies for raw materials to fuel industrialization.

Looks like they've been taking notes from Argentina when it comes to selectively ignoring or oppresing democratic votes that don't favor them. I guess Spain will just become another country I'll never visit.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;43193706]How oppressive of you, Spain. They ought to hold the vote anyway and then declare independence. What's Spain going to do, invade?[/QUOTE] scw v2: revolutionary catalonian boogaloo

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43193960]lol with what money?[/QUOTE] It's not that bad tbh, theres a fuckton of buget cuts, but the country is still running

If Catalonia does declare independence and secures its own borders, it's gonna be Gibraltar/Falklands v2. I hope this ends well, but something tells me it won't.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43193926]Well it was a pretty violent war badly mismanaged by both sides. The Americans demanded too much and the British used too heavy a hand in response.[/QUOTE] Without distracting the thread too much, it would be a stretch to consider the British heavy handed compared to the usual British response. They didn't send many troops, it was difficult to find a general willing to build his career on shooting white colonists and they were overall too careful in trying to not upset the locals. If it was any other colony it would have been put down brutally burning every town and village along the way.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43194678]And why you look at Anglo dominated colonies, they're some of the largest economies in the world. You look at Central America and south America. Mexico is getting there, but the only real Spanish speaking power is Argentina, though while they speak Spanish, they were mainly Italian migrants and such. Brazil is decent because they built it up after the Napoleon invasion, while Spain just kind of was like. LOOK AT THIS ISLAND I HAVE IN THE PACIFIC, LOOK AT ALL THIS.[/QUOTE] Don't forget Britain's involvement with Argentina during the Empire days, setting up industries, businesses and railways, as well as the mass Welsh immigration.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;43195955]Without distracting the thread too much, it would be a stretch to consider the British heavy handed compared to the usual British response. They didn't send many troops, it was difficult to find a general willing to build his career on shooting white colonists and they were overall [b]too careful[/b] in trying to not upset the locals. If it was any other colony it would have been put down brutally burning every town and village along the way.[/QUOTE] "too careful"

[QUOTE]Mexico is getting there, but the only real Spanish speaking power is Argentina, though while they speak Spanish, they were mainly Italian migrants and such.[/QUOTE] Argentina is not a real power. Compared with Mexico, Argentina has a smaller economy and a WAY WORSE future. Yes, we might not have the social problems Mexico has, but we are just 1 damn step away from them as it was just shown during the previous week and we have many other issues they don't have. Mexico and Chile are real powers. The latter having a rock solid economy and a even better education. Brazil was never "built up". In any case, the Monarchy translated from Portugal to Brazil which brought many men to Brazil which would later form or construct the foreign policy of Brazil which in turn slowly helped Brazil have the upper hand in South America. Brazil reckoned they would have to suck US ass already by late 19th century if they wanted to outcompete Argentina. And hell, did they suck US ass. And there you see them.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43196169]"too careful"[/QUOTE] For an 18th century imperial power, it was.

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43193960]lol with what money?[/QUOTE] Never stopped the US

[QUOTE=Cjk592;43195878]If Catalonia does declare independence and secures its own borders, it's gonna be Gibraltar/Falklands v2. I hope this ends well, but something tells me it won't.[/QUOTE] I think it will end well enough. I don't think the European community will suffer a war of independence right next to them that's already a part of them in many different ways.