France effectively outlaws Israel boycotting - Polidicks

[quote]BDS advocates for economic measures to pressure Israel to end human rights abuses against Palestinians, including the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. While the movement has been gaining momentum internationally for years, in France a recent court decision against activists has been hailed as effectively outlawing BDS.[/quote] [quote]On Friday, France's last court of appeal, the Court of Cassation, upheld a verdict against 12 BDS protesters. [b]The protesters were charged under an anti-discrimination law for handing out pamphlets at supermarkets in 2009 and 2010 urging shoppers to boycott Israeli products. [/b]According to French media, the pamphlets warned the sale of Israeli products legitimizes Israeli war crimes. [/quote] [url]http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/French-Pro-Palestine-Activists-Protest-Anti-Boycott-Ruling-20151025-0029.html[/url] [url]https://theintercept.com/2015/10/27/criminalization-of-anti-israel-activism-escalates-this-time-in-the-land-of-the-charlie-hebdo-free-speech-march/[/url] I'm weary of any person or nation that claims to support free speech, especially after all the Charlie Hebdo free-speech posturing that happened in France.

so Free Speech is out the window in france then

[QUOTE=Lamar;48995621] the Charlie Hebdo free-speech posturing in France was all show.[/QUOTE] Hey whose fault is it that the government invited themselves to the march? I was only there to commemorate the artists pal, I didn't invite crazy ben and a ton of people sure as shit didn't want him there. I'll have you know that support for israel in France is pretty much limited to jews that want to leave, some masonic lodges and interest groups. It just so happens that the latter are pretty influent around those parts, which is to say, they make laws. Now, how do you truly put in place an interdiction to boycott? No one's going to make me buy Israeli merchandise and I can't get into trouble for avoiding all israeli products. I get that our laws are once again infringing what for most, me included, is basic freedom of speech. But boycotting israel can't be forbidden.

Although I don't support any limits on free speech (including on hate speech) other than when provoking violence, I wouldn't be surprised if what BDS were handing out did breach existing anti-Hate Speech laws given how anti-semitic the entire movement is.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48995804] I wouldn't be surprised if what BDS were handing out did breach existing anti-Hate Speech laws given how anti-semitic the entire movement is.[/QUOTE] This is pretty baseless. I have friends involved in it and they're way below the normal french quota of jewish jokes per hour. I don't think they're using the movement as a way to sublimate their latent anti-semitism, they just seem preoccupied with the living conditions of the Palestinian, whom they have, for most of them, had the occasion to meet on trips to Israel. While being strongly opposed to the state of Israel, I've never heard any of them speak out against the Hebrew, much less judaism.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48995804]Although I don't support any limits on free speech (including on hate speech) other than when provoking violence, I wouldn't be surprised if what BDS were handing out did breach existing anti-Hate Speech laws given how anti-semitic the entire movement is.[/QUOTE] This comes up whenever something is anti-Israel. "I don't like the Israeli government's policy on X", "OMG you racist fuck, why are you such an anti-Semite??". This is why Israel gets away with so much shit.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;48995791]Hey whose fault is it that the government invited themselves to the march? I was only there to commemorate the artists pal, I didn't invite crazy ben and a ton of people sure as shit didn't want him there. I'll have you know that support for israel in France is pretty much limited to jews that want to leave, some masonic lodges and interest groups. It just so happens that the latter are pretty influent around those parts, which is to say, they make laws.[/QUOTE] saying it was all show was too much, yeah, there are always people out there who truly support free speech instead of being fair-weather advocates of it. [QUOTE=Scarabix;48995791] Now, how do you truly put in place an interdiction to boycott? No one's going to make me buy Israeli merchandise and I can't get into trouble for avoiding all israeli products. I get that our laws are once again infringing what for most, me included, is basic freedom of speech. But boycotting israel can't be forbidden.[/QUOTE] you can't, it forces people to be secretive about it though. Even merely handing out pamphlets supporting it is now against the law. [QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48995804]Although I don't support any limits on free speech (including on hate speech) other than when provoking violence, I wouldn't be surprised if what BDS were handing out did breach existing anti-Hate Speech laws given how anti-semitic the entire movement is.[/QUOTE] [quote]According to French media, the pamphlets warned the sale of Israeli products legitimizes Israeli war crimes.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Morgen;48995916]This comes up whenever something is anti-Israel. "I don't like the Israeli government's policy on X", "OMG you racist fuck, why are you such an anti-Semite??". This is why Israel gets away with so much shit.[/QUOTE] Not true at all. Massive strawman, you never hear anyone (bar a few crazies) saying that all criticism of Israel is 'anti-semitic'. [QUOTE]That said, calls for boycotts on some campuses have been tainted by clear expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment. At the University of California, Davis earlier this year, a successful boycott vote was followed by Muslims taunting Jewish students with chants of "allahu-akbar" and painting swastikas on a Jewish fraternity. At UCLA a Jewish student almost lost a seat on the student judicial board over concerns among fellow students that she was perhaps too "active in the Jewish community" to "maintain an unbiased view." The BDS campaign also seems to prefer straw men to realistic positions. Take the demand that Israel retreat to its 1967 borders, before it seized the Sinai, the West Bank and the Golan Heights in a defensive six-day war. BDS fails to address the complexities of such a move. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis now live beyond this border. Some of these settlers will have to go, but it would be unreasonable to shove everyone out of homes they have lived in for decades. Advocates of a two-state solution have taken account of this complication with proposals to swap out some land in pre-1967 Israel for equal portions of land on the West Bank. But reasoned compromise is not part of the BDS discourse. This is not to say that the BDS campaign is necessarily anti-Semitic. Opponents of the boycott need to make a better case than that. But to sanction Israeli companies and universities until Israel agrees to implode is not quite kosher, either. The boycott movement springs from a noble motive of advocating for a long-suffering underdog. But the positions BDS pushes are non-starters for Middle East peace negotiations. They can only inspire resentment and retrenchment, not constructive dialogue, among students on college campuses.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/05/campus-politics[/url] The movement itself isn't anti-semitic, but it has many anti-semites within it. I mean, for example, this is an example of the BDS movement being anti-semitic: [url]http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Foreign-Ministry-Spanish-festivals-boycott-of-US-Jew-Matisyahu-proves-BDS-is-anti-Semitic-412286[/url] Believe it or not, claiming that you are 'anti-Zionist' and only against 'Zionists' does not make your movement not anti-semitic. Because very often, the hatred devolves into hatred of all Jews - Especially so if you are Jewish and are not a 'good Jew' with exactly the right opinions on everything that the BDS and other pro-Palestine movements want. Take a look at the sort of stuff that is tweeted towards journalists with 'Jewish' names such as Nick Cohen or David Aarronovitch. This is a small minority within the movements at this point, but it has been growing over the years. This piece explains better than I can about why you should be more uneasy about the movement than you are: [url]http://hurryupharry.org/2015/10/16/its-the-maths-stupid/[/url] [QUOTE]Then on Twitter I see a post from a very prominent British musician. He’s a staple of every middle class CD collection or Spotify “world music fusion” list. He’s a good guy. He’s super smart. He’s one of us. He’s also someone I’ve worked and got drunk with – I used to be a musician too. But his tweet isn’t funny, smart or good. It’s a graphic suggesting that the world would be a better place if all the Jews in Israel were forcibly removed to the USA, seeing as the US seems to love them so much. So I contact this avowedly socially progressive musician from an immigrant background and, once we get past the “hey, it’s been a long time, you’re great/no you’re great!” bit, I ask him why he would post such a thing. He tells me that he’s very upset about the children in Gaza and he knows I must be too. I am, of course. But I explain that anti-Semitism and ethnic cleansing probably isn’t going to help much and that I find it a little “difficult” to see one of the good guys stoking the fire. He accepts this, apologises for any offense but reminds me that the trauma of witnessing events in Gaza (via mainstream and social media) has caused him to act the way he did. He declines my suggestion that he remove the post. We part on good terms with a promise to keep in touch – as you do – and then I quietly fume for the next couple of months.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On social media any questions about his attitude to Israel and Jews were revealed as smears organised and propagated by “Zionist powers”. Corbyn fans declared Zionism an evil ideology and that Israel had no right to exist. We spent more time than was good for us trying to work out what was going on. It turned out that Corbyn was at best a reluctant advocate of a two State solution, describing it in pointed terms as being “the only option currently on offer”. His belief that all 7 million plus Palestinians registered by the UNRWA should be given the “right to return” to what is currently Israel made his commitment to the continued existence of a Jewish state appear less than total. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]We return home and immediately I find myself spending too much time on Twitter. I conduct one of those debates-by-tweet with a writer whose work regularly appears in the Guardian & the LRB. I express my concern over politicians from the secular UK Left supporting radical Islamic theocratic groups such as Hamas & Hezbollah that want to kill Jews, non-believers and gays and restrict the rights of women. I tell him I’m not comfortable with a potential leader of the Labour Party who has long standing links going back decades with groups that want to wipe Israel from the map. He lets me know that whilst Zionism is a morally degenerate, evil ideology & must be condemned as such, it would not be appropriate for him or others on the UK Left to pass judgement on any “representation choices of the Palestinian people that may not be congruent with my ego-ideal“. He is angered by my suggestion that the logic of this might be flawed because it offers moral & political relativism about 1 ethnicity, but is not short of a view about the choices of another ethnic group. He speaks for what appears to be a significant slice of the British Left in finding it not at all problematic to announce that Jews have no right to self-determination. As in not being able to collectively and individually decide their political, economic and cultural fate. They must simply do as they did prior to 1948 and take what they are given, good or bad. The writer declines to identify any other ethnic groups that he extends this kind offer to. This Guardian writer is far from the only individual who seems to find it important to tell me what is and what is not anti-Semitic. Twitter is bursting with Corbyn fans that are very keen to set me straight. They “know” I am Jewish because of my name – just as they did in the school playground. When I point out that there might be something a little unwise and unseemly about non-Jews telling Jews what is and is not anti-Semitic, they get cross. Very cross. They tend to want to shout at me about dead children in Gaza. My famous musician friend often drifts into my mind once people get to the “what about the children of Gaza?” stage.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]We over-hear one of our very vocal left wing acquaintances saying to another left wing Hackney dweller: “Oh, you should meet X. He’s a barrister – Jewish. He’s fine though -very anti-Israel”.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]My wife realises that her union is a key player in the BDS movement, supporting boycotts of Israeli goods and services right down to picketing outside Jewish-Israeli owned businesses. Her union has been a key backer of the Corbyn campaign. She writes a letter which points out that these two aspects of union policy are a little hard for Jewish members to take right now. Her local union office doesn’t bother to reply. She resigns. We lurch into October and Israel finds itself under attack from knife and gun wielding Palestinian terrorists. What is the reaction from elements of the UK Left to the daily tally of horrific terrorist attacks on Jewish Israeli’s? Many like Brighton BDS and the Palestinian Solidarity Committee find it impossible to condemn the attacks. Stop the War Coalition – chaired by Corbyn prior to his winning of the Labour leadership –joins a host of these groups protesting angrily outside the Israeli embassy. They chant for an Islamic Palestinian state “from the river to the sea”. Gaza Boat Convoy state that if they were Palestinians they would “definitely” drive cars into elderly Jewish Israeli women waiting at bus stops.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The Guardian writer who I “debated” with writes on social media that a Jewish Israeli journalist – who wrote a piece detailing the Palestinian violence – “should have his throat cut.”[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]And so my wife and I lose our moorings. We are of the Left, but are no longer welcome, unless we become “good Jews” who are not “bad, Zionist Jews”. We worry about our son. He will be confronted by Israeli Apartheid Week when he arrives on a University campus in a few years. If he is a Jew who believes that Israel has a right to be, he will be hated by many on the student Left. My son is an enthusiastic, articulate and kind boy. The realisation that he will be hated by those who will not see any of these attributes, but instead will see only one attribute – his Jewishness – chills me. Strangers feel compelled to say hateful things to me. Others threaten violence to all Jews – “go back to Auschwitz, Zionist scum” [This was from an anti-Austerity rally IIRC]. All this from the Left.[/QUOTE] Can you really say that the (often justified) criticism of Israel has at this point not often strayed into anti-semitism?

[QUOTE=Scarabix;48995791]I'll have you know that support for israel in France is pretty much limited to jews that want to leave, [B]some masonic lodges and interest groups[/B]. It just so happens that the latter are [B]pretty influent around those parts, which is to say, they make laws[/B]. [/QUOTE] Seriously? You know that sounds a little bit antisemitic, right?

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;48996151]Seriously? You know that sounds a little bit antisemitic, right?[/QUOTE] saying that masonic lodges and interest groups are influential and make laws isn't antisemitic. learn what that word means before using it.

[QUOTE=Quark:;48996409]saying that masonic lodges and interest groups are influential and make laws isn't antisemitic. learn what that word means before using it.[/QUOTE] Doesn't what you are claiming sound awfully like the Nazi conspiracy theories that Jews ruled the world? Especially the masonic lodges part. I can understand the interest groups bit a lot more, but really? Masonic lodges? You're fucking claiming the free masons actually have major influence - Oh, and they're all controlled by the Jews, who want to control the world. See why its anti-Semitic?

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48996434]Doesn't what you are claiming sound awfully like the Nazi conspiracy theories that Jews ruled the world? Especially the masonic lodges part. I can understand the interest groups bit a lot more, but really? Masonic lodges? You're fucking claiming the free masons actually have major influence - Oh, and they're all controlled by the Jews, who want to control the world. See why its anti-Semitic?[/QUOTE] funny how i never said any of that nor agreed with him lmao. i pointed out that he's using antisemitic incorrectly. are you even trying?

Yes. I just explained why it was anti-Semitic.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48996479]Yes. I just explained why it was anti-Semitic.[/QUOTE] let's take his post apart and see if we can figure out where you're having troubles. [QUOTE=his post] support for israel in France is pretty much limited to[B] jews that want to leave, some masonic lodges and interest groups.[/B] It just so happens that [B]the latter are pretty influent around those parts[/B], which is to say, they make laws. [/QUOTE] he's saying that the latter (masonic lodges and interest groups) are influent around those parts. he did not say that jews control anything at all and expressed no dislike for jews in any way. which is why it's not antisemitic. come on.

Part of me really wants to believe that Flashmarsh is just really taking the piss out of you here but then I too would be anti-semetic for raising such an opinion.

So parroting Nazi-era conspiracy theories to demean Jews isn't anti-Semitic now? What's next, parroting The Protocols of the Elders of Zion isn't anti-Semitic? He is IMPLYING that Jews control the Free Masons, strongly, by linking them to the pro-Israel cause and with 'jews that want to leave' as being some of the only other people who support Israel.

nobody is parroting nazi era conspiracy theories. nobody is demeaning jews. you're seeing things that aren't there. he's not implying that jews control the free masons or anything like that. you're just getting fired up and freely using the term antisemitic because it's a buzzword. nobody is hating on jews here but you seem to think everyone is. relax.

How would you feel if you were Jewish in this atmosphere? Genuine question.

Yeah, I don't know, since Lamar is posting this I'm taking it with a grain of salt. It's entirely possible there's something we don't know that was going on or whatnot.

Dude what the fuck, just citing "some Freemason lodges" as being supportive of Israel's policies, without even saying that those lodges are controlled by or even contains Jew, makes one antisemitic? Or is it the fact he also refers to "Jews that want to leave" as being supportive? Is that what you mean by strongly implying Nazi conspiracies?

[QUOTE]On Friday, France's last court of appeal, the Court of Cassation, upheld a verdict against 12 BDS protesters. The protesters were charged under an anti-discrimination law for handing out pamphlets at supermarkets in 2009 and 2010 urging shoppers to boycott Israeli products. According to French media, the pamphlets warned the sale of Israeli products legitimizes Israeli war crimes.[/QUOTE] This boycott thing was literally done all over Europe during anti-apartheid demonstrations against South Africa. How is it now an offense? The situations are very similar.

[QUOTE=Mabus;48996731]This boycott thing was literally done all over Europe during anti-apartheid demonstrations against South Africa. How is it now an offense? The situations are very similar.[/QUOTE] No they aren't.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48996665]How would you feel if you were Jewish in this atmosphere? Genuine question.[/QUOTE] i wouldn't be upset or freaking out if that's what you mean. i'd just keep moving and not think of it as a big deal. because it's not.

Absolutely fucked up. Not even surprised its just Israel.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;48996783]Absolutely fucked up. Not even surprised its just Israel.[/QUOTE] Most likely because its the only country a group of citizens are trying to boycott. Should be sanctioning and boycotting a bunch of Arab countries though.

[QUOTE=_Axel;48996724]Dude what the fuck, just citing "some Freemason lodges" as being supportive of Israel's policies, without even saying that those lodges are controlled by or even contains Jew, makes one antisemitic? Or is it the fact he also refers to "Jews that want to leave" as being supportive? Is that what you mean by strongly implying Nazi conspiracies?[/QUOTE] Okay, look. [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory"]Wikipedia[/URL]. [QUOTE]The Judeo-Masonic conspiracy is a conspiracy theory[2] involving an alleged secret coalition of Jews and Masons. These theories were popular on the reactionary right,[B] particularly in France[/B],[3] Russia, and Eastern Europe, with similar allegations still being published.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]See also[edit] Andinia Plan Anti-Masonry [B]Antisemitic canard[/B] [B]Antisemitism[/B] Masonic conspiracy theories New World Order (conspiracy theory) Synarchism[/QUOTE] In the real world freemasons control shit (and have no special affinity to Israel or Jews), Jews only control Israel and there are no secret lodges and interest groups forcing European governments into passing pro-Israeli laws. People who hold such opinions, even if they are not aware of it, are airing antisemitic conspiracy theories that have been around since the Elders of Zion got published. And the reason more and more French Jews want to leave is exactly that. Antisemitism is getting so casual people don't even realize they're doing it. [THUMB]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Il_pleut_sur_le_Temple.jpg/800px-Il_pleut_sur_le_Temple.jpg[/THUMB]

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;48999019]And the reason more and more French Jews want to leave is exactly that. Antisemitism is getting so casual people don't even realize they're doing it.[/QUOTE] That would be because of muslim immigrants in France, who are fully aware of their anti-semitism.

[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48996665]How would you feel if you were Jewish in this atmosphere? Genuine question.[/QUOTE] I'd be really fucking pissed that scumbags in the Israeli government are committing ironic genocide and getting away with it because my religion could be used as a fucking pity and guilt plea. My dislike for Israel has nothing to do with Jews or even the average Israeli citizen. I hate their corrupt shithole government. Same reason I often hate on Saudi Arabia, Argentina, Russia, US, Venezuela, etc. Government corruption to the point it causes mass suffering is disgusting.

[QUOTE=draugur;48999273]I'd be really fucking pissed that scumbags in the Israeli government are committing ironic genocide and getting away with it because my religion could be used as a fucking pity and guilt plea. My dislike for Israel has nothing to do with Jews or even the average Israeli citizen. I hate their corrupt shithole government. Same reason I often hate on Saudi Arabia, Argentina, Russia, US, Venezuela, etc. Government corruption to the point it causes mass suffering is disgusting.[/QUOTE] If Israel is committing genocide then they're doing the world's worst job at it.

I, for one, welcome our new Jewish overlords.