Brought up by the Connecticut school shooting: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1232781[/url]
Gun Control is a very controversial issue here on FP. This should be an interesting thread.
I believe that banning guns is a very bad idea. I also believe that having little to no gun control is also a terrible idea. Banning guns won't make them disappear and prevent criminals from holding them. While it may reduce the amount of firearms, it has its drawbacks. Black markets and legal workarounds are created (similar to the Prohibition and the ongoing war on drugs), which are incredibly unsafe. Not to mention, an unregulated gun dealer won't check if your crazy before they hand you a gun. Even people who are just legitimately just interested in guns/like shooting them (I'm not gonna lie, its pretty damn fun) get screwed over. On the other hand, gun control that is too lax has rather obvious draw backs. It would allow would-be criminals/convicts to get a hold of a literal killing machine with little or no difficulty. In addition, allowing factories to produce ammunition and guns in mass amounts will make regulation much more difficult and end with the ammunition/weapons hitting the streets much more often. What people need is a moderate, safely regulated, legal gun market. A little education and psychological goes a long way.
tl;dr:
Going to either extreme in gun control is retarded.
What do you guys think?
give weapons to child owners
problem solved
[editline]15th December 2012[/editline]
and to people who doesnt have a criminal record
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is not debating" - Megafan))[/highlight]
what's the current age restriction?
Raise it by 5.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("No basis or explanation - This is also not debating" - Megafan))[/highlight]
I believe in licensing. Getting a gun is like getting a car. You need to prove you can handle one safely, but that's about it.
Ultimately though, if you're determined enough, no gun law will stop a criminal from getting one.
There are many countries with relatively lax gun laws. New Zealand and Switzerland for example. NZ has no gun registration for "normal" guns, only rego for machine guns (in the hands of collectors), "Military Style Semi-automatics" (basically guns that look scary) and handguns, yet they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Switzerland has the 3rd highest gun ownership in the world, simply because their defence policy consists of giving ever man between the age of 18 and 30 an assault rifle (a real one, not the guns the media constantly describes as such), yet they're 8th or something in lowest murder rate.
Simply put, the gun issue in the US is very complex, guns are not the problem. A massive gang culture fostered by the ridiculous war on drugs, creating criminals because you have a little bag of weed, and a decrepit mental health system that can't treat mental health patients is
This is always a very hot topic on FP, here's to hoping we can keep the thread civilized for a few pages.
For me personally, the debate boils down to wether or not you think society is "mature" enough to handle firearms. Granted, not everyone should have firearms, but I still think the majority is capable of responsible ownership.
I think a lot of the time, the pro-guncontrol people lose sight of the bigger problem: The misery that leads to massacres like the one in Connecticut.
Regulating firearms just makes them harder to get for the law-abiding citizens, but those who want a weapon, will always find one. If it's not a firearm, it's a knife. If it's not a knife, it's a glass shard, etc.
Why does USA's lack of functioning mental health care take a back seat to gun regulation whenever there's a public shooting?
[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;38838831]Why does USA's lack of functioning mental health care take a back seat to gun regulation whenever there's a public shooting?[/QUOTE]
"Hurr, soshalist!"
Need I say more?
in the wake of school shootings, the problem isn't how many people have guns and whether or not people should be able to defend themselves with firearms or not, it's about attacking the root causes of things like this.
if it turns out the shooter had a mental illness, then why was he not watched carefully (especially when buying a bloody [I]weapon[/I])
and 9/10 times crimes like these have nothing to do with whether or not people should own a gun. it's how crime works, if guns didnt exist people would still find other ways to brutally massacre groups of people in the US' current state, and especially since guns are so widespread in the US i don't think you could ever reverse it.
[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;38838831]Why does USA's lack of functioning mental health care take a back seat to gun regulation whenever there's a public shooting?[/QUOTE]
People are very entitled in the United States about their rights, especially the more... paranoid and conservative. If you watch the political trends of the NRA, you'll see that they've become more and more right-wing oriented, and less and less stable in their thought-process.
Really I see it as "Making laws against various types of guns wont work since criminals don't give a shit about the law and really the citizens are the ones that are affected" but yes there are some limits that are required.
[QUOTE=avon43;38838964]Really I see it as "Making laws against various types of guns wont work since criminals don't give a shit about the law and really the citizens are the ones that are affected" but yes there are some limits that are required.[/QUOTE]
The thing is in these school shootings legally acquired guns are used as they are easier to attain and they don't care about being traced as they are on a suicide mission.
School shooters aren't master criminals with connections so the easiest way is to get them from a shop.
What the US needs to do is introduce laws so that when a shop sells a gun they are liable for what the gun is used for thus making them more likely to do proper checks and tests.
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;38839000]The thing is in these school shootings legally acquired guns are used as they are easier to attain and they don't care about being traced as they are on a suicide mission.
School shooters aren't master criminals with connections so the easiest way is to get them from a shop.
What the US needs to do is introduce laws so that when a shop sells a gun they are liable for what the gun is used for thus making them more likely to do proper checks and tests.[/QUOTE]
It's like saying a guy who sells a car is responsible for what they buyer does with it...
Not going to happen
[QUOTE=download;38839034]It's like saying a guy who sells a car is responsible for what they buyer does with it...
Not going to happen[/QUOTE]
If he sells a car that he knows is faulty then he is liable the same should go with selling a gun to someone that is mentally unstable.
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;38839045]If he sells a car that he knows is faulty then he is liable the same should go with selling a gun to someone that is mentally unstable.[/QUOTE]
No gun dealer in his right mind would knowingly sell a gun to someone mentally unstable. He would lose his licence and could get guns banned
Anyway, what does broken cars have to do with it?
[QUOTE=download;38839055]No gun dealer in his right mind would knowingly sell a gun to someone mentally unstable. He would lose his licence and could get guns banned
Anyway, what does broken cars have to do with it?[/QUOTE]
That's why they need to be liable to give them an incentive to be more careful to who they hand firearms to.
You was the one that brought up cars.
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;38839000]The thing is in these school shootings legally acquired guns are used as they are easier to attain and they don't care about being traced as they are on a suicide mission.
School shooters aren't master criminals with connections so the easiest way is to get them from a shop.
What the US needs to do is introduce laws so that when a shop sells a gun they are liable for what the gun is used for thus making them more likely to do proper checks and tests.[/QUOTE]
Its also funny to note is when columbine occurred the two students were using guns bought from people who legally obtained the weapons from gunshows and gunstores
Oh yeah and they also made a ton of pipebombs and other diy explosives with items you can find at home depot.
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;38839070]That's why they need to be liable to give them an incentive to be more careful to who they hand firearms to.
You was the one that brought up cars.[/QUOTE]
I brought up selling cars, then the seller being responsible for the buyer. It's ridiculous.
[editline]15th December 2012[/editline]
Swap cars for guns, and you'll see how silly it is. Seems you missed that
[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;38839070]That's why they need to be liable to give them an incentive to be more careful to who they hand firearms to.
You was the one that brought up cars.[/QUOTE]
It's already illegal to sell a gun to someone who is ineligible to own a gun. Mentally unstable people don't walk around with signs taped to them for everyone to see. That's what the background check system is for and if it comes up clean then as far as the gun dealer knows it's a good sale.
If a background check come up poorly then the dealer can't file a 4473, which has to be filed to sell a gun from a business, selling the gun anyway is a very serious federal offense and the ATF WILL find out about it, all gun shops are required to take inventory and if things are missing with no bill of sale then shit hits the fan.
You've probably heard of Red Jacket Firearms through their show Sons of Guns, what you may not know is they faced this issue when some things went missing from their inventory and they very nearly went to jail over it.
Wish they had, would have gotten rid of that crappy show
Yearly mental check-up for gun owners.
Any slight sign of something not like it should be, then their firearms will be temporarily impounded until their condition improves.
If it doesn't get any better after a set period, then the guns will be sold on a auction, and the owners will get the money from the sale.
[QUOTE=Van-man;38839252]Yearly mental check-up for gun owners.
Any slight sign of something not like it should be, then their firearms will be temporarily impounded until their condition improves.
If it doesn't get any better after a set period, then the guns will be sold on a auction, and the owners will get the money from the sale.[/QUOTE]
This seems like an overly-complex method of controlling it and easily open to exploitation, limiting a person's ability acquire a weapon only drives them to get them again through other methods.
Honestly the gun restriction system is already complicated enough. There are other things we need to address that I think are a lot more important when preventing crime and shootings. Yeah, things like streetsweepers and military grade explosives should be restricted to anyone except law enforcement and military, and they are.
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;38838130]Brought up by the Connecticut school shooting: [url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1232781[/url]
Gun Control is a very controversial issue here on FP. This should be an interesting thread.
I believe that banning guns is a very bad idea. I also believe that having little to no gun control is also a terrible idea. Banning guns won't make them disappear and prevent criminals from holding them. While it may reduce the amount of firearms, it has its drawbacks. Black markets and legal workarounds are created (similar to the Prohibition and the ongoing war on drugs), which are incredibly unsafe. Not to mention, an unregulated gun dealer won't check if your crazy before they hand you a gun. Even people who are just legitimately just interested in guns/like shooting them (I'm not gonna lie, its pretty damn fun) get screwed over. On the other hand, gun control that is too lax has rather obvious draw backs. It would allow would-be criminals/convicts to get a hold of a literal killing machine with little or no difficulty. In addition, allowing factories to produce ammunition and guns in mass amounts will make regulation much more difficult and end with the ammunition/weapons hitting the streets much more often. What people need is a moderate, safely regulated, legal gun market. A little education and psychological goes a long way.
tl;dr:
Going to either extreme in gun control is retarded.
What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]
I actually think Britain has it right, yes we have the black market selling guns, but if you get caught selling a gun it's an automatic life sentence, so it isn't exactly easy to find a seller.
The only people who use guns are mostly people in gangs shooting other people in gangs, it's rare they would shoot an innocent person as the prison sentence isn't worth it.
Although if you are interested in guns it is possible to get a gun licence and there are places you can go to safely shoot at targets.
[QUOTE=Van-man;38839252]Yearly mental check-up for gun owners.
Any slight sign of something not like it should be, then their firearms will be temporarily impounded until their condition improves.
If it doesn't get any better after a set period, then the guns will be sold on a auction, and the owners will get the money from the sale.[/QUOTE]
They wanted to do that in my country. Two big problems:
1. [B]Expenses[/B]: A mental check done by a professional will cost you anything from 70$ to 150$, and takes about an hour and a half. Not many people can pay that sort of money or stop working for that amount of time, specially considering that we're still a poor country.
2. [B]Corruption[/B]: Since what you need is a certificate, certain private psychiatrists specialize in filling these forms and do as many as they can a day. Needless to say, the quality of their work is next to none, but you can't really do much to fix it since it's a private business and the forms are standarized.
In the end you raise the cost of legally owning weapons, so people prefer not to do the hassle every year and just keep them buried/unregistered or selling them in the black market.
[b]December 14, 2012:[/b] At least 27 dead, approximately 18 of whom were children in a Connecticut elementary school.
[b]December 11, 2012:[/b] One injured, two killed at a mall by gunman in Clackamas, OR.
[b]December 8, 2012:[/b] Four killed and two injured on the Tule Indian Reservation including the shooter's three children, only one of whom survived the initial attack.
[b]September 28, 2012:[/b] Five killed by a recently fired employee in Minneapolis, MN.
[b]August 24, 2012:[/b] Two killed, 9 wounded in 'Empire State Building' shooting.
[b]August 5, 2012:[/b] Seven killed in Sikh temple shooting in Oak Creek, WI.
[b]July 20, 2012:[/b] Twenty killed and 58 wounded in Aurora, CO.
[b]May 30, 2012:[/b] Five killed, one wounded in mass shooting at Cafe Racer.
[b]April 3, 2012:[/b] Ten shot, seven killed in Oakland's Oikos University.
[b]March 31, 2012:[/b] Two killed and 12 injured in a shooting outside Miami funeral home.
[b]March 2, 2012:[/b] Fourteen injured in a mass shooting at concert in Tempe, AZ.
[b]February 27, 2012:[/b] Five shot, three dead in a Chardon, OH school.
[b]February 21, 2012:[/b] Four killed in a Korean Spa shooting in Atlanta, GA.
[b]December 25, 2011:[/b] Seven killed in Grapevine, TX on Christmas Day.
[b]December 1, 2011:[/b] Four killed in Bay City, TX mass shooting.
When will it ever STOP?
[QUOTE=Registered User;38840042]December 14, 2012: At least 27 dead, approximately 18 of whom were children in a Connecticut elementary school.
December 11, 2012: One injured, two killed at a mall by gunman in Clackamas, OR.
December 8, 2012: Four killed and two injured on the Tule Indian Reservation including the shooter's three children, only one of whom survived the initial attack.
September 28, 2012: Five killed by a recently fired employee in Minneapolis, MN.
August 24, 2012: Two killed, 9 wounded in 'Empire State Building' shooting.
August 5, 2012: Seven killed in Sikh temple shooting in Oak Creek, WI.
July 20, 2012: Twenty killed and 58 wounded in Aurora, CO.
May 30, 2012: Five killed, one wounded in mass shooting at Cafe Racer.
April 3, 2012: Ten shot, seven killed in Oakland's Oikos University.
March 31, 2012: Two killed and 12 injured in a shooting outside Miami funeral home.
March 2, 2012: Fourteen injured in a mass shooting at concert in Tempe, AZ.
February 27, 2012: Five shot, three dead in a Chardon, OH school.
February 21, 2012: Four killed in a Korean Spa shooting in Atlanta, GA.
December 25, 2011: Seven killed in Grapevine, TX on Christmas Day.
December 1, 2011: Four killed in Bay City, TX mass shooting.
When will it ever STOP?[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
I've found this is a topic in which your opinion heavily relies on where you have grown up. I've grown up in the UK and looking at America I find it strange how gun control is so relaxed, air rifles are just looked at like toys over there (was told that by a gun shop owned when I went to buy mine). I've started to understand how pro-gun Americans, their reasons and it just seems to be an 'American thing' to bear arms.
I like how it works over here in the UK, you apply for a licence and you get a visit from an official and they do a background check and make sure you have all the storage facilities needed to safely store them, it doesn't stop everyone getting weapons it just stops the wrong people getting weapons. I'd like to say it's working well over here compared to America but it's not fair using number of gun crimes reported as we're just such a smaller population, I'd need to find out percentage of gun crime out of total crimes.
I personally think that America should do more in depth background checks when it comes to getting a licence so people can who legitimately want to own weapons for all the right reasons can get access to them or just keep it the same and control ammunition which would be harder and ammo would be easier to illegally get as opposed to trying to get a weapon.
[QUOTE=Registered User;38840042][B]December 14, 2012:[/B] At least 27 dead, approximately 18 of whom were children in a Connecticut elementary school.
[B]December 11, 2012:[/B] One injured, two killed at a mall by gunman in Clackamas, OR.
[B]December 8, 2012:[/B] Four killed and two injured on the Tule Indian Reservation including the shooter's three children, only one of whom survived the initial attack.
[B]September 28, 2012:[/B] Five killed by a recently fired employee in Minneapolis, MN.
[B]August 24, 2012:[/B] Two killed, 9 wounded in 'Empire State Building' shooting.
[B]August 5, 2012:[/B] Seven killed in Sikh temple shooting in Oak Creek, WI.
[B]July 20, 2012:[/B] Twenty killed and 58 wounded in Aurora, CO.
[B]May 30, 2012:[/B] Five killed, one wounded in mass shooting at Cafe Racer.
[B]April 3, 2012:[/B] Ten shot, seven killed in Oakland's Oikos University.
[B]March 31, 2012:[/B] Two killed and 12 injured in a shooting outside Miami funeral home.
[B]March 2, 2012:[/B] Fourteen injured in a mass shooting at concert in Tempe, AZ.
[B]February 27, 2012:[/B] Five shot, three dead in a Chardon, OH school.
[B]February 21, 2012:[/B] Four killed in a Korean Spa shooting in Atlanta, GA.
[B]December 25, 2011:[/B] Seven killed in Grapevine, TX on Christmas Day.
[B]December 1, 2011:[/B] Four killed in Bay City, TX mass shooting.
When will it ever STOP?[/QUOTE]
There has been 3 in the UK:
June 2, 2010: 12 killed 11 injured in Cumbria in random attack
March 13, 1996: 16 children killed 13 injured in primary school attack
August 19, 1987: 16 dead 15 injured in shopping centre, parliament banned semi-automatic and pump-action rifles in response
[QUOTE=matt.ant;38840096]There has been 3 in the UK:
June 2, 2010: 12 killed 11 injured in Cumbria in random attack
March 13, 1996: 16 children killed 13 injured in primary school attack
August 19, 1987: 16 dead 15 injured in shopping centre, parliament banned semi-automatic and pump-action rifles in response[/QUOTE]
He's only listing the ones in the time span of one year though.
[QUOTE=PyroCF;38840080]
I personally think that America should do more in depth background checks when it comes to getting a licence so people can who legitimately want to own weapons for all the right reasons can get access to them[/QUOTE]
I completely agree
Im a gun owner and I think its pretty ridiculous how easy it is to get a gun here in the US. Really what we need is a much more in depth process for getting firearms, similar to what the UK has, maybe even add in some sort of mental health evaluation.
What I dont really like is the banning of certain types of weapons though, that doesn't strike me as useful at all. Im fine with guns being overall difficult to acquire, but banning guns for having arbitrary features (like a gun being banned for having a fucking bayonet lug or a rifle grenade mount) that some uneducated legislator deems to be "scary" is just plain stupid.
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