• What are your views on MMR?
    31 replies, posted
I was reading through the news this morning and came across an article claiming that Labour think that parents should lose their child benefit if they don't give their children their MMR jab. [QUOTE]Parents should lose their child benefit if they refuse to immunise their children with the MMR jab, a senior Labour MP has suggested.[/QUOTE] There has always been a lot of controversy around MMR and a lot of people believe it causes the mental condition called Autism as seen on Horizon: [video=youtube;liNmckVIrX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liNmckVIrX8[/video] Parents have reported that after their child had the MMR Vaccine that he or she had massive behavioural changes similar to those of Autism. They have reported that their child was perfectly fine [b]before[/b] the MMR vaccine. Doctor Andrew Wakefield, Former surgeon and researcher whome has been discredited has for years (and still does) claims that the MMR vaccine causes Autism and other health issues such as Chrons. Wakefields research suggests that the cause of the complications with MMR is that the Measles disease isnt meant to enter the body through an injection. The body cant fight off the disease and the diseases enters the small intestine and sits there. The toxins from the stomach then go to the brain causing damage and then on causing disorders like Autism which explains both the chrons and austism claims. Although Dr.Wakefield has been discredited for scientific fraud, one thing still stands... Is this propaganda? Are his claims valid? Is the number of children effected by MMR to small for them to do anything about so they just discredit his research? Do you guys think its right that parents with children who have autism should have their benefits (if any) taken off them if they dont get the MMR vaccine for their children? Are Doctor Andrew Wakefileds claims false? A film all about Dr Wakefields research can be found here: [video=youtube;FkYGSGKI16Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkYGSGKI16Q[/video]
"Wakefields research suggests that the cause of the complications with MMR is that the Measles disease isnt meant to enter the body through an injection. The body cant fight off the disease and the diseases enters the small intestine and sits there. The toxins from the stomach then go to the brain causing damage and then on causing disorders like Autism which explains both the chrons and autism claims." This is why this is completely wrong and defunct, because this is not how vaccines work. this is wrong and dumb and you're a fool for even considering it.
[QUOTE=lintz;42283257]"Wakefields research suggests that the cause of the complications with MMR is that the Measles disease isnt meant to enter the body through an injection. The body cant fight off the disease and the diseases enters the small intestine and sits there. The toxins from the stomach then go to the brain causing damage and then on causing disorders like Autism which explains both the chrons and autism claims." This is why this is completely wrong and defunct, because this is not how vaccines work. this is wrong and dumb and you're a fool for even considering it.[/QUOTE] I never considered anything. I just setup a debate as all... I never said that his research is correct. I stated that his research [i][b]claims[/b][/i] these things and nothing more. The intestine thing can be seen on the film about Wakefield by the way, might not have explained that properly.
Even in the case that a tiny small portion have an adverse effect to immunisation, the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Not to mention unimmunised people present a health risk to everyone else (and everyone else to them)
I agree its just a small group. But on that argument you could say that Autism isnt real because only 11 people initially were used in the research of Autism. Not saying that this is the case BUT its certainly an interesting factor. I do know somone with absolute severe chrons (only 50 other people in the UK have it to his degree) and I'm pretty sure he had his MMR vaccine which is rather interesting.
Did he have it before or after.
After, BUT coming to think of it, it did come into play when he was 12.... So maybe not
Let's play a (small) game. Everyone who can read is invited to play. Ask everybody you know if they were immunized. Tally them up. This is N1 Ask, or check this same population for symptoms of crippling, chronic conditions that have no outside cause. (It doesn't count if your immunized cousin lost his leg to a tractor. That's not the MMR's fault.) Tally them up. This is N2 Set N1 next to N2. Tell me your results.
[QUOTE=lintz;42284414]Did he have it before or after.[/QUOTE] I don't think theres a way to find out if a child has autism that early. Going on the subjects are around 4.
[QUOTE=Sally;42289869]I don't think theres a way to find out if a child has autism that early. Going on the subjects are around 4.[/QUOTE] I know a mother of an autistic child who had her second child and she knew it had autism from that age of 2. The doctors kept telling her that she was seeing things until she pushed them so much they went through the diagnosis process and as it turned out, she got the diagnosis. Although, she did have a child before this one that was autistic which probably made it easier to spot the difference. Both these children have had MMR for the record
If you don't have kids they don't need it done. Not having them guarantees they won't get any health problems. Why have a kid risking they could suffer from a health problem when it's easy to guarantee they don't suffer by not having them? I've come across lots of autistic kids and they often have temper tantrums. Screaming and shouting.
This whole MMR causing autism is a dangerous falsehood. Some people end up not getting the vaccine for their child which is putting their child in danger. Its people who are looking for something to blame for their child's autism. The real reason why autism rates have been going up is because we actually have tests to detect autism now. We actually have a name and test for autism now, unlike some decades ago where people with autism were just labeled as crazies.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42292449]This whole MMR causing autism is a dangerous falsehood. Some people end up not getting the vaccine for their child which is putting their child in danger. Its people who are looking for something to blame for their child's autism. The real reason why autism rates have been going up is because we actually have tests to detect autism now. We actually have a name and test for autism now, unlike some decades ago where people with autism were just labeled as crazies.[/QUOTE] But if this is the case, why have doctors in countries like Sweden, France (I think) backed the claims of Wakefield? Also, I don't believe this is a problem for children. Back in the 60s they didn't have MMr and that generation got on fine. Also, Wakefield after being discredited is still fighting til this day about mmr... Surely if he was a fraudster he'd just back off now and stop. Plus also the Italian courts have ruled that mmr does cause autism apparently. Although it's one case, it's interesting none the less:[url]http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/05/08/italian-court-rules-mmr-vaccine-caused-autism-us-media-blacks-out-story/[/url]
i read some study once that in autistic children vs non-autistic children there were several toxic metals present in the brain that usually get filtered out autism is a birth defect which comes from a difference in signal chemicals from a non-infected individual and an infected one you can't instigate autism because of this
[QUOTE=Banana-man;42293248]i read some study once that in autistic children vs non-autistic children there were several toxic metals present in the brain that usually get filtered out autism is a birth defect which comes from a difference in signal chemicals from a non-infected individual and an infected one[/QUOTE] Ah! On that note, there was some toxic materials used in MMR back in the 90s that were taken out in 2000. I think it was mercury.
[QUOTE=Chizbang;42292516]But if this is the case, why have doctors in countries like Sweden, France (I think) backed the claims of Wakefield? Also, I don't believe this is a problem for children. Back in the 60s they didn't have MMr and that generation got on fine. Also, Wakefield after being discredited is still fighting til this day about mmr... Surely if he was a fraudster he'd just back off now and stop. Plus also the Italian courts have ruled that mmr does cause autism apparently. Although it's one case, it's interesting none the less:[URL]http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/05/08/italian-court-rules-mmr-vaccine-caused-autism-us-media-blacks-out-story/[/URL][/QUOTE] When looking at diagnosis rates, it's important to consider changes in the definition of the condition. The DSM recognized Asperger's as separate from Autism in 1994, for example, and DSM-V blankets all Autism under Autism Spectrum Disorders as of this year, for example. Autism wasn't as widely recognized into the 70's and 80's. [URL]http://www.news-medical.net/health/Autism-History.aspx[/URL] The article you linked to is a little short on details, so I wouldn't really say anything conclusive about it. According to the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Child Development, classic Autism is generally diagnosed by age 3 (Which would put the child in your cited case just a little late for diagnosis, a possibility given the scant details) while Asperger's is typically diagnosed around age 6. I'd be interested to see what evidence was presented. [QUOTE=Chizbang;42293689]Ah! On that note, there was some toxic materials used in MMR back in the 90s that were taken out in 2000. I think it was mercury.[/QUOTE] The mercury in vaccines was indeed removed as a precaution. "A vaccine containing 0.01% thimerosal as a preservative contains 50 micrograms of thimerosal per 0.5 mL dose or approximately 25 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 mL dose." [URL]http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#thi[/URL] For reference, it's estimated a 150 lb. person can eat about 49 mcg per week of mercury before seeing a significantly increased risk of problems, and a 6 oz. can of tuna contains about 10. [URL]http://voices.washingtonpost.com/mighty-appetite/2006/11/working_draft.html[/URL] [QUOTE=Valnar;42292449]This whole MMR causing autism is a dangerous falsehood. Some people end up not getting the vaccine for their child which is putting their child in danger. Its people who are looking for something to blame for their child's autism. The real reason why autism rates have been going up is because we actually have tests to detect autism now. We actually have a name and test for autism now, unlike some decades ago where people with autism were just labeled as crazies.[/QUOTE] It's definitely worth noting that Wakefield's rather infamous study was exposed to include fabricated/falsified results. Even being an intentionally biased study, the results did not support a link, according to the first source. [URL]http://www.medicaldiscoverynews.com/shows/237_wakefieldAutism.html[/URL] [URL]http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html[/URL] [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy#Wakefield_Lancet_paper_controversy[/URL] [QUOTE=Chizbang;42284372] I do know somone with absolute severe chrons (only 50 other people in the UK have it to his degree) and I'm pretty sure he had his MMR vaccine which is rather interesting.[/QUOTE] It's extremely common for people in the Western world to have received their MMR, severe disease or not. You'd really need more people from both sides of the needle to get truly interesting results.
[QUOTE=Carnotite;42296880]When looking at diagnosis rates, it's important to consider changes in the definition of the condition. The DSM recognized Asperger's as separate from Autism in 1994, for example, and DSM-V blankets all Autism under Autism Spectrum Disorders as of this year, for example. Autism wasn't as widely recognized into the 70's and 80's. [URL]http://www.news-medical.net/health/Autism-History.aspx[/URL] The article you linked to is a little short on details, so I wouldn't really say anything conclusive about it. According to the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Child Development, classic Autism is generally diagnosed by age 3 (Which would put the child in your cited case just a little late for diagnosis, a possibility given the scant details) while Asperger's is typically diagnosed around age 6. I'd be interested to see what evidence was presented. The mercury in vaccines was indeed removed as a precaution. "A vaccine containing 0.01% thimerosal as a preservative contains 50 micrograms of thimerosal per 0.5 mL dose or approximately 25 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 mL dose." [URL]http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#thi[/URL] For reference, it's estimated a 150 lb. person can eat about 49 mcg per week of mercury before seeing a significantly increased risk of problems, and a 6 oz. can of tuna contains about 10. [URL]http://voices.washingtonpost.com/mighty-appetite/2006/11/working_draft.html[/URL] It's definitely worth noting that Wakefield's rather infamous study was exposed to include fabricated/falsified results. Even being an intentionally biased study, the results did not support a link, according to the first source. [URL]http://www.medicaldiscoverynews.com/shows/237_wakefieldAutism.html[/URL] [URL]http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html[/URL] [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy#Wakefield_Lancet_paper_controversy[/URL] It's extremely common for people in the Western world to have received their MMR, severe disease or not. You'd really need more people from both sides of the needle to get truly interesting results.[/QUOTE] Well what I found interesting is that apparently Wakefield was discredited for fraud. How does his alleged scam work? Well, he basically fights for proof on MMR causing autism and THEN he sues the pharmaceutical companies for handouts for the parents and himself. One thing to note on this, pharmaceutical companies I have heard can [b]not[/b] be sued. So how would have wakefield gotten anything out of this?
[QUOTE=Chizbang;42297624]Well what I found interesting is that apparently Wakefield was discredited for fraud. How does his alleged scam work? Well, he basically fights for proof on MMR causing autism and THEN he sues the pharmaceutical companies for handouts for the parents and himself. One thing to note on this, pharmaceutical companies I have heard can [B]not[/B] be sued. So how would have wakefield gotten anything out of this?[/QUOTE] Here is an article on it. [URL]http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html[/URL] In it it says he was paid by laywers who wanted to create a vaccine scare in order to sue vaccine manufacturers. Also to you're statement about things going along fine in 1960's, take a look at this chart. [URL]http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/graph-us-measles-cases[/URL] Notice how it went from over 400 thousand cases a year to nearly 0 in twenty years?
[QUOTE=Valnar;42297700]Here is an article on it. [URL]http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html[/URL] In it it says he was paid by laywers who wanted to create a vaccine scare in order to sue vaccine manufacturers. Also to you're statement about things going along fine in 1960's, take a look at this chart. [URL]http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/graph-us-measles-cases[/URL] Notice how it went from over 400 thousand cases a year to nearly 0 in twenty years?[/QUOTE] My point still stands though. How could anyone sue the pharmaceutical companies if they [b]cant[/b] be sued? (That is if that is the case. I remember reading that they cant be sued somewhere) Also, what my point was with the no MMR thing back in the 60s was that sure, people got it and they faught it off. My grandparents are alive and well and so are my parents.
[QUOTE=Chizbang;42297955]My point still stands though. How could anyone sue the pharmaceutical companies if they [B]cant[/B] be sued? (That is if that is the case. I remember reading that they cant be sued somewhere) Also, what my point was with the no MMR thing back in the 60s was that sure, people got it and they faught it off. My grandparents are alive and well and so are my parents.[/QUOTE] I think the supreme court decision you are talking about didn't happen until 2011. The original study that Wakefield got paid for was published in 1998, as said in the article I linked you. Also here is a link to some statistics around effects of measles before the vaccine, in the US. [URL]http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html[/URL] [Quote]Before measles vaccine, [B]nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age[/B]. [B]Each year in the United States about 450-500 people died because of measles[/B], 48,000 were hospitalized, 7,000 had seizures, and about 1,000 suffered permanent brain damage or deafness. [B]Today there are only about 60 cases a year reported in the United States[/B], and most of these originate outside the country.[/Quote] Measles is an extremely serious disease, the vaccine not only ends up saving a lot of people money from preventing hospitalization but a lot of grief from the effects of it. Now, measles is almost completely eradicated in the US. This is why spreading the falsehood of MMR causing autism is dangerous.
Yeah but if it is true that MMR causes Autism... Then what should be done about it? Don't forget, Andrew Wakefield is still fighting against claims and still fighting for the autism MMR thing even [B][I]after[/I][/B] the courts said the medical companies couldnt be sued: [video=youtube;d7kbWfsygG4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7kbWfsygG4[/video] Surely by now if he was scamming hed just back off while he was "winning" and just bugger off?
[QUOTE=Chizbang;42298476]Yeah but if it is true that MMR causes Autism... Then what should be done about it? Don't forget, Andrew Wakefield is still fighting against claims and still fighting for the autism MMR thing even [B][I]after[/I][/B] the courts said the medical companies couldnt be sued: [video=youtube;d7kbWfsygG4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7kbWfsygG4[/video] Surely by now if he was scamming hed just back off while he was "winning" and just bugger off?[/QUOTE] He makes money now by running a nonprofit organization called Strategic Autism Initiative. By creating concern over MMR and autism he gets people to donate money to his organization.
Just read what you said about Wakefield and his organisation and thats [B][I]very[/I][/B] interesting. If he is a scammer then that would make sense I guess. I have been looking into his organisation and how he was discredited and what not and came across [URL="http://www.naturalnews.com/031116_Dr_Andrew_Wakefield_British_Medical_Journal.html"]this[/URL]: [QUOTE]Newly-revealed documents show that on December 20th, 1996, a meeting of The Inflammatory Bowel Disease Study Group based at the Royal Free Hospital Medical School featured a presentation by Professor Walker-Smith on seven of the children who would later become part of the group of patients Dr Wakefield wrote about in his 1998 The Lancet paper (which was later retracted by The Lancet). Remember, Dr Wakefield has been accused of completely fabricating his findings about these same children in his 1998 paper, but these documents reveal that fourteen months before Dr Wakefield's paper was published, two other researchers -- Professor Walker-Smith and Dr Amar Dhillon -- independently documented the same problems in these children, including symptoms of autism. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Thus, Dr Wakefield could not have "fabricated" these findings as alleged by the British Medical Journal, which now finds itself in the position of needing to issue a retraction, or it must now expand its accusations of fraud to include Professor Walker-Smith and Dr Dhillon... [/QUOTE] Very interesting. Still not sure though. I guess if he is genuine then he'd need funds for research because, lets face it... The government are hardly gonna give him money to research something they dont want coming out if it is true...
[QUOTE=Chizbang;42302503]Just read what you said about Wakefield and his organisation and thats [B][I]very[/I][/B] interesting. If he is a scammer then that would make sense I guess. I have been looking into his organisation and how he was discredited and what not and came across [URL="http://www.naturalnews.com/031116_Dr_Andrew_Wakefield_British_Medical_Journal.html"]this[/URL]: Very interesting. Still not sure though. I guess if he is genuine then he'd need funds for research because, lets face it... The government are hardly gonna give him money to research something they dont want coming out if it is true...[/QUOTE] I can find almost nothing on the actual content of "Entero-colitis and Disintegrative Disorder Following MMR - A Review of the First Seven Cases" presentation, could you provide it if you know it? Also, in the 15 years since Wakefield's paper no other scientist has been able to replicate Wakefields results.
I to would love to find the presentation. Il let you know if I come across it. Also with the research since, has it all been government funded research? If so, wouldn't it be possible for the government to say to these research groups funded by them to fabricate the results with what the government want their people to know ?
[url]http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673697110960/fulltext[/url] Is the closest I have found so far to his research. Il let you know if i come up with anything else. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [video=youtube;d40suCKnjbI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=d40suCKnjbI[/video]
There is no scientific link between autism and MMR. Now, I have had it happen on a somewhat personal level, and I can capably tell you that Wakefield and co are nothing but scams and hacks. For instance, not only was Mr Wakefields sample size incredibly tiny, but his research was rejected by the Lancet once it discovered he was wrong. During the legal case, my father (who was on Wakefields team) was helping to try and find the link between MMR and Autism. He not only found no link, but when he told this to the team, they told him that he had to make the results fit the theory, otherwise the legal case would fall through. My father was disgusted and not only told the lawyers that the scientists were lying, but immediately got my siblings MMR jabs. When it came to the actual newspapers printing how much money each person on the team was making off the trial, only Wakefield and my father had their figures published. It was designed to make money from the government by peddling bullshit to people that these vaccines caused autism. What's worse is that indirectly it promoted the idea that autism was somehow "curable", and lead to many incidents where people like Mr Wakefield gave myself, and quite a few other people, unnecessary and ineffective medical treatments that at best restricted our diets and gave us nasty plant oils to consume. At worst, we received treatments that caused pain. Mr Wakefield is a fraud and pseudo-scientist who made the world worse off through his "work". I hope he is imprisoned.
The MMR vaccine does not cause autism. The hypothesis that claimed this has been proven to be not only a shady study (Wakefield used a tiny sample size and didn't follow standard procedures), Wakefield was found to have a financial interest in producing the results he did and the study was found to be not reproducible. This study wasn't scientific, in fact it wasn't even incompetence: It was fraud. Mr Wakefield is not longer Dr Wakefield, and thanks to his efforts MMR (which was slated for worldwide eradication) is now rampant, and I'm sure children have died from this. This isn't Mr Wakefield's fault, nor the scientific community's. They handled everything giving us such conclusive answers. I'd blame the mantra of 'there's two equal sides of a story', which the media (and OP) is pushing. Science doesn't work based on opinion, it works on fact.
[QUOTE=Jookia;42332523]The MMR vaccine does not cause autism. The hypothesis that claimed this has been proven to be not only a shady study (Wakefield used a tiny sample size and didn't follow standard procedures), Wakefield was found to have a financial interest in producing the results he did and the study was found to be not reproducible. This study wasn't scientific, in fact it wasn't even incompetence: It was fraud. Mr Wakefield is not longer Dr Wakefield, and thanks to his efforts MMR (which was slated for worldwide eradication) is now rampant, and I'm sure children have died from this. This isn't Mr Wakefield's fault, nor the scientific community's. They handled everything giving us such conclusive answers. I'd blame the mantra of 'there's two equal sides of a story', which the media (and OP) is pushing. Science doesn't work based on opinion, it works on fact.[/QUOTE] It definitely had an effect on people getting immunizations. [quote=Assoicated Press]Immunization rates in Britain dropped from 92 percent to 73 percent, and were as low as 50 percent in some parts of London. The effect was not nearly as dramatic in the United States, but researchers have estimated that as many as 125,000 U.S. children born in the late 1990s did not get the MMR vaccine because of the Wakefield splash.[/quote] [url]http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/articles/2011/01/06/will_autism_fraud_report_be_a_vaccine_booster/[/url] There have also been a few pretty big outbreaks of measles in Europe and united states in 2008 and 2011, with a some dozen fatalities.
Well one thing I have found out is that think about it: He started out doing research on a link with the bowel and the brain... So surely, he cant of started with the intentions of scamming? He has no life now and cant do much I would imagine. (How can he? Hed probably be killed or pelted)
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