Proposed Army manual tells G.I.s not to insult Taliban or speak up for women - Polidicks

[quote]A proposed new handbook for Americans serving in Afghanistan warns them not to speak ill about the Taliban, advocate women’s rights or criticize pedophilia, and the general in charge is not happy with it. The draft of the newest Army handbook seems to suggest that ignorance of Afghan culture is to blame for deadly attacks by Afghan soldiers against the coalition forces, according to The Wall Street Journal, which got a peek at the 75-page document. But its message of walking on eggshells around the locals is not going over well with U.S. Marine Gen. John Allen, the top military commander in Afghanistan. "Gen. Allen did not author, nor does he intend to provide, a foreword," said Col. Tom Collins, a spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan. "He does not approve of its contents." More than three dozen attacks by Afghan soldiers have claimed the lives of some 63 members of the U.S.-led coalition this year. The insider attacks could jeopardize plans to transfer full security control to Afghan forces in 2014. "He does not approve of its contents." But a claim by their own government that they’re to blame is not likely to buoy the spirits of Americans risking their lives to serve. [B]"Many of the confrontations occur because of [coalition] ignorance of, or lack of empathy for, Muslim and/or Afghan cultural norms, resulting in a violent reaction from the [Afghan security force] member,"[/B] the Journal quotes the draft handbook as saying. [B]The version reviewed by the Journal is still subject to revisions[/B], Lt. Gen. David Perkins, commander of the Army's Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., told the Journal. The study, based on interviews with 600 members of the Afghan security forces and 200 American soldiers, painted a grim portrait of opposing cultures with simmering disdain for their counterparts. The draft handbook includes a summary stating that some U.S. soldiers consider Afghan forces to be “basically stupid” thieves, "gutless in combat," "profoundly dishonest" and engaged in "treasonous collusion and alliances with enemy forces." [B]The draft handbook offers a list of "taboo conversation topics" that soldiers should avoid, including "making derogatory comments about the Taliban," "advocating women's rights," "any criticism of pedophilia," "directing any criticism toward Afghans," "mentioning homosexuality and homosexual conduct" or "anything related to Islam,"[/B] according to the Journal. [/quote] [URL="http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/12/proposed-army-manual-tells-gis-not-to-insult-taliban-speak-up-for-women/"]Source:[/URL] [URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324024004578171561230647852.html?KEYWORDS=military"]Alternate source: [/URL]

It makes sense. It's their culture and has been going on for a long time. Even though many may mislike it, it's not our place to reform their culture.

IE we don't want to get hurt, so we're gonna pussy foot around medieval cultural "norms". [QUOTE=credesniper;38816376]It makes sense. It's their culture and has been going on for a long time. Even though many may mislike it, it's not our place to reform their culture.[/QUOTE] They can get over it, people are going to have opinions. You can't keep people from sharing these opinions and thoughts though murder and death-threats.

Though their culture most definitely needs reforming, that's not what armies are meant to do. There needs to be a natural change over a period of time, or else the populace will just think that the soldiers are trying to ruin their way of life, and that'll just feed into their hatred of the US.

[QUOTE=Cone;38816416]Though their culture most definitely needs reforming, that's not what armies are meant to do. There needs to be a natural change over a period of time, or else the populace will just think that the soldiers are trying to ruin their way of life, and that'll just feed into their hatred of the US.[/QUOTE] So what they keep their mouths shut at FOBS and other bases because we got some sensitive afghans living around them? Its pretty funny though, they hate our guts and what we stand for. But they sure as hell will take our evil westerner money.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38816377]IE we don't want to get hurt, so we're gonna pussy foot around medieval cultural "norms". They can get over it, people are going to have opinions. You can't keep people from sharing these opinions and thoughts though murder and death-threats.[/QUOTE] It's this kind of arrogance that you don't have to consider Afghan culture has already resulted in US casualties. For better or for worse.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38816486]So what they keep their mouths shut at FOBS and other bases because we got some sensitive afghans living around them? Its pretty funny though, they hate our guts and what we stand for. But they sure as hell will take our evil westerner money.[/QUOTE] If keeping our mouths shut about their ass backwards culture is the price to pay to keep them from shooting our soldiers in the back when they're eating lunch, then so be it. We're not there to reform their culture anyways, we're supposed to train them so they can take care of themselves so we can get the hell out of that shit hole.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38816377]IE we don't want to get hurt, so we're gonna pussy foot around medieval cultural "norms".[/QUOTE] And this is a bad thing because? You insult their culture, you lose support of the civilian population and give the Taliban more fuel to use against you, then our soldiers are at more risk. Can they get over it? Maybe over time. Is it endangerment of our soldiers for something that can easily be prevented? Yes. Not to mention they'll think it's another round of imperialism if we try to forcibly change them, which will almost definitely lead to fighting.

Sorry, but fuck the Taliban, women deserve better rights over here, and fucking little boys and girls is wrong. Fucking deal with it. Also, afghan forces suck in combat, and I don't feel comfortable around them as I don't want to get raped like they did to some soldiers over here. No one is going to pay attention to this handbook, and if they think that we will, they are farther removed from the actual shit that happens here than I thought.

Some concessions have to be made for progress, this thickheaded and overly stubborn and reaction and unwillingness to understand other people's cultures is partly what fucked us up in Vietnam, fucked us up in Iraq, and is fucking us up in Afghanistan.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;38816545]I don't want to get raped like they did to some soldiers over here.[/QUOTE] You do have that soft boyish drop the soap charm.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;38816572]You do have that soft boyish drop the soap charm.[/QUOTE] It's bad man. The afghans look at me like I am candy or something. It is pretty disconcerting.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38816486]So what they keep their mouths shut at FOBS and other bases because we got some sensitive afghans living around them? Its pretty funny though, they hate our guts and what we stand for. But they sure as hell will take our evil westerner money.[/QUOTE] They're not there to judge and reform though, are they? They're there to train people. Attempting to rise above that station will just get the locals even angrier, and some conscientious soldiers aren't going to change the whole country's ways. [editline]13th December[/editline] Like, really, consider the US's position here. The locals - who, I remind you, all have guns - hate their guts, and they're also quite traditionalist with what ethical liberties they're allowed to take. Do you [I]really[/I] want to be stepping on any toes right about then, even when saving a couple people won't stop the same thing happening in the future and will probably get you and your buddies shot when they're out to lunch? What happens when there isn't a nice, moral soldier around to save the victims? What happens when the US must inevitably withdraw, taking all those miniature saviors with them? Trust me, you don't want soldiers dying pointlessly when the same exact issue is going to be coming up every single day. I can understand that you think letting G.I.s speak for women will magically solve all these issues that the country has, but the cold, hard reality is that the US [I]WILL[/I] have to leave, and if they've basically told everybody in the country that their culture is shitty and Western culture is awesome, they are not going to listen. This is a conclusion that they need to reach on their own terms, you can't force it just because you've got the Western world on your side.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;38816613]It's bad man. The afghans look at me like I am candy or something. It is pretty disconcerting.[/QUOTE] Sleep with that rifle of yours.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38816377]IE we don't want to get hurt, so we're gonna pussy foot around medieval cultural "norms". They can get over it, people are going to have opinions. You can't keep people from sharing these opinions and thoughts though murder and death-threats.[/QUOTE] You don't win hearts and minds by pissing everyone off. If you ever want to see the Taliban gone from Afghanistan then this needs to be done.

My thought is that they are soldiers, not advocates or anything of the like. A person has a right to an opinion, but I don't think a soldier should be able to express it. They are there to do their job, and going any further than that, while often heartwarming, is sometimes scary to me.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;38816629]Sleep with that rifle of yours.[/QUOTE] I lock my plywood door at night and have my rifle a couple feet away. This cherry is not getting popped. [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=melonmonkey;38816643]My thought is that they are soldiers, not advocates or anything of the like. A person has a right to an opinion, but I don't think a soldier should be able to express it. They are there to do their job, and going any further than that, while often heartwarming, is sometimes scary to me.[/QUOTE] Yeah. Beep boop emotions. We are people too you know. We have thoughts and opinions, and damn right we are allowed to express them. We just exercise something called tact. [editline]13th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=markfu;38816565]Some concessions have to be made for progress, this thickheaded and overly stubborn and reaction and unwillingness to understand other people's cultures is partly what fucked us up in Vietnam, fucked us up in Iraq, and is fucking us up in Afghanistan.[/QUOTE] You, and everyone else, seem to assume that we go on up to afghans and start cultural and political debates. Truth be told, we don't even understand each other's language 90% of the time, and we don't care enough to go starting shit with every afghan we see. We just talk among each other about these things, not go spouting off to the local nationals.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;38816545]Sorry, but fuck the Taliban, women deserve better rights over here, and fucking little boys and girls is wrong. Fucking deal with it. Also, afghan forces suck in combat, and I don't feel comfortable around them as I don't want to get raped like they did to some soldiers over here. No one is going to pay attention to this handbook, and if they think that we will, they are farther removed from the actual shit that happens here than I thought.[/QUOTE] The manual isn't telling or forcing soldiers to sympathize with rapists, terrorists, or pedophiles. It's just saying not to talk shit about them when theres ANA around.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;38816755]The manual isn't telling or forcing soldiers to sympathize with rapists, terrorists, or pedophiles. It's just saying not to talk shit about them when theres ANA around.[/QUOTE] I don't even know why the whole "don't insult the taliban" part is IN this thing. Afghan locals HATE the Taliban. Yeah, we don't generally do that. However, you get some dumbass private or careless sergeant that runs their mouth. Most of us are tactful enough to keep those conversations to other soldiers.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;38816545]Sorry, but fuck the Taliban, women deserve better rights over here, and fucking little boys and girls is wrong. Fucking deal with it. Also, afghan forces suck in combat, and I don't feel comfortable around them as I don't want to get raped like they did to some soldiers over here. No one is going to pay attention to this handbook, and if they think that we will, they are farther removed from the actual shit that happens here than I thought.[/QUOTE] Imposing your worldview on a completely foreign culture is the worst possible way to conduct a 'hearts and minds' campaign. You of all people should know this.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;38816772]I don't even know why the whole "don't insult the taliban" part is IN this thing. Afghan locals HATE the Taliban. Yeah, we don't generally do that. However, you get some dumbass private or careless sergeant that runs their mouth. Most of us are tactful enough to keep those conversations to other soldiers.[/QUOTE] The manual is still up for revision and isn't official yet, that bit in there is probably just there to as a "better safe than sorry" bit.

[QUOTE=catbarf;38816773]Imposing your worldview on a completely foreign culture is the worst possible way to conduct a 'hearts and minds' campaign. You of all people should know this.[/QUOTE] And you of all people should know that we don't go around imposing our worldview on a foreign country over here by way of soldiers blabbing about shit. We discuss it among each other, but we couldn't give less of a crap about imposing our culture on people. As long as we are in one piece at the end of the day, and the mission got accomplished, then all is good.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;38816820]As long as we are in one piece at the end of the day, and the mission got accomplished, then all is good.[/QUOTE] Exactly. It's not vitally important to tell the locals 'how it is', so keeping quiet about sensitive topics shouldn't be an issue. So why your first post? What does it matter? It's not telling you what is and is not true, it's telling you what you shouldn't talk about, and you're implying that it's an issue.

Man, this sucks! I should be able to insult people in a foreign country with culture on the other end of the spectrum because my culture and opinions are right and they are wrong! I blame the liberals and Obama for trying to impose these pussy footed leftist viewpoints on our soldiers that have no diplomatic responsibility at all in order to prevent unneeeded death and conflict.

[QUOTE=SKEEA;38816670] You, and everyone else, seem to assume that we go on up to afghans and start cultural and political debates. Truth be told, we don't even understand each other's language 90% of the time, and we don't care enough to go starting shit with every afghan we see. We just talk among each other about these things, not go spouting off to the local nationals.[/QUOTE] Um, where did I say that you mouth off to Afghans? I have no idea how soldiers act around them, I'm not over there. I don't have a recording of every single soldier's interactions in Afghanistan. But it's not about that, it's about how you're presented and how you're perceived. Perceived animosity/dislike is just as important as actual dislike, and can still lead to very real consequences. If the Afghan and US soldiers interviewed are an overall representation of opinions on the forces (I have no idea how they chose interviewees, I haven't read the journal paper) then something clearly has to change.

This is the right policy to keep. As far as I'm concerned occupying soldiers are the LAST people who should be manipulating their perceptions. Let time, open commerce, and the natural progression of society do its work and in a hundred years they'll be drinking Starbucks and laughing about all of this with the rest of us.

[QUOTE=credesniper;38816376]It makes sense. It's their culture and has been going on for a long time. Even though many may mislike it, it's not our place to reform their culture.[/QUOTE] Tell that to the women who get acid thrown in their face because they refuse to be forced into an arranged marriage. Respecting a country's culture is one thing, ignoring blatant human rights abuse is another.

While I think reforming the culture should happen, going and insulting them is exactly how you shouldn't do it. All that does is encourage their violent reactions. Sure, they are oppressive, but fighting won't solve anything.

[QUOTE=Melkor;38817348]Tell that to the women who get acid thrown in their face because they refuse to be forced into an arranged marriage. Respecting a country's culture is one thing, ignoring blatant human rights abuse is another.[/QUOTE] Read the article, soldiers aren't being told to ignore rape, pedophilia, or human rights abuses. They're being told not to discuss their opinions on it around the ANA and other Afghans, as some think very strongly about their opinions on the matter.

[QUOTE=MR-X;38816377]IE we don't want to get hurt, so we're gonna pussy foot around medieval cultural "norms".[/QUOTE] You need to understand that different isn't always wrong, just because they do things differently than us doesn't make them savages, it just makes them different. Imagine a world where we're the minority, our way of life is in their light, we would be called savages, and they would be the civilized ones. Yes you might not agree with it, but in your own words, you can get over it, people are going to have opinions. Now don't be so aggressive about it and let them have their own way of life.