Support Gunner Thread - General

[B][U]THIS THREAD IS BELT-FED[/U][/B] [img]http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/machine/mg12/m60e3.jpg[/img] [B]INTRODUCTION[/B] In airsoft, many specialized weapons have fundamentally different roles from their real-steel counterparts. Machine guns are one such example. While not as radically different as, for example, 40mm grenades, they nonetheless have a number of considerations that apply differently from real machine guns that necessitate a different approach to their use. This thread is intended to provide a place for the discussion of support guns and their operation. [B]ROLE [/B] In general, a machine gun or support weapon is a weapon that provides a high sustained volume of fire. This does not necessarily require a high mechanical rate of fire, as even a gun with a low rate of fire but high capacity and durable gearbox can fire continuously for long periods. Conversely, even if a gun uses magazines and needs to reload often, if it has a very high rate of fire it can still throw out enough fire to keep players pinned. Either way, the basic use of the MG is the same- to utilize this high volume of fire to suppress, preventing the other team from returning fire or moving without risking being hit. While this is essentially the same pinning role provided by snipers and designated marksmen, these players are limited in that they can only engage one target at a time and are often thwarted by players moving quickly, making them hard to hit. A machine gunner alone has the capability to kill an entire group if they should stray from cover in a hail of automatic fire. Suppressing in this way means that a gunner needs to do a lot of shooting, and not just at individual players when they're spotted. This leads into the concept of area targets vs point targets. Machine gunning requires a fundamentally different targeting methodology from that of a rifleman. Riflemen are primarily concerned with point targets, typically individual players in the open, windows, or other obstructions that can be watched and fired upon when the opportunity presents itself. Support guns can be used in this manner, but in order to fully take advantage of their volume of fire, they should be used against area targets. At its most basic form, an area target consists of the entire space an individual hostile or hostiles occupies. This could be a building, or a low wall, a trench, or even as abstract a concept as a particular direction. The point of an area target is that by engaging the entire area, sweeping fire across it and not dwelling on any one point for very long, every hostile within the area is simultaneously engaged. While each one receives less fire than if they were targeted individually, they are still strongly discouraged from exposing themselves to the incoming fire. Because the objective is to force the enemy to hide, staying out of sight, a gunner has to fire continuously, even when he can't see any other players. This quickly drains ammo. This is why a machine gun is needed. A rifle set to automatic can be used to spray an area, but with a relatively low rate of fire it may not be enough to convince the targets to keep their heads down, and with a limited ammunition capacity it will run out and need to be reloaded, a window during which the other team can attack with impunity. While an entire team of riflemen can suppress, working together to cover each other reloading, a single machine gun can do the same job and often better, freeing up the riflemen to cover flanks, engage targets of opportunity, or accomplish objectives. [B]SUPPORT GUN TYPES[/B] In terms of performance, airsoft guns vary in three primary characteristics- effective range, rate of fire, and capacity. While all MGs need a high capacity, which can be achieved with the use of hi-caps or a box magazine, which of the other two characteristics to focus on is a choice left up to the user. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages, but at least one of the two is necessary, otherwise the MG is no better than a standard rifle with a C-mag. This choice of trait largely dictates the gun's optimal role. A support gun that focuses on range, via hop-up and muzzle velocity, becomes a GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun). In real life this category includes M60s, M240s, and other such platoon-level weapons- of course, with airsoft guns being readily modifiable, the physical appearance of a gun does not necessarily indicate its role. In the GPMG role, the gun is best used deployed in a defensible position, where the gun can be used to engage at long range. Because the weapon usually sacrifices rate of fire in achieving a high muzzle velocity, it lacks the cyclic rate of fire needed for rapid reaction at close range, limiting its utility when attached to a squad. However, a GPMG with an assistant gunner (no more than a rifleman who helps spot hostiles, watch the flanks, and engage point targets) can deploy at a window, bunker, or other hard cover, and become a very dangerous support element. With a high capacity, preferably via an auto-winding box magazine, coupled with a controllably low rate of fire, the gun can provide continuous suppression without stopping to reload or re-wind, and at a longer range than most rifles. On defense, the GPMG can thus secure a large area, firing on infantry before they can get close enough to return fire. On offense, the GPMG can suppress defenders from outside their effective range. On the other hand, an MG that relies upon a high rate of fire becomes a SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon). In terms of real-steel, 'the' SAW is the M249, a fireteam-level MG designed to provide higher firepower than a standard rifle. In airsoft, SAWs (a category in this context) are intended to use a high fire rate, and while often box-fed can be fed from standard hi-cap mags to make them compatible with the squad. Unlike a standard rifle with a drum magazine, it has a high rate of fire allowing very quick engagement of an area target. Unlike a high rate of fire rifle build, it has the ammo capacity to continuously suppress. Unlike a high rate of fire rifle build with a drum magazine, it does not suffer from the reliability and feeding problems that plague C-mags at high rates of fire, and does not compromise the 'realism' of the user (as opposed to, for example, using a compact SMG with huge drum mag as a support gun does). A SAW is a very handy gun that is often more flexible than the GPMG role, relying upon its rate of fire for mid-range use, complementing the fire of the riflemen. The SAW is by necessity more portable and must be able to fire from the shoulder, as it does not have the range to deploy from a distance and fire on hostiles either as they approach or outside their range. These two general types are not hard classifications, but rather different schools of thought regarding the use of MGs in airsoft. As well, the requirements of each are often diametrically opposed. Increasing muzzle velocity is an important part of increasing effective range, but for AEGs has a corresponding negative effect on rate of fire due to the stronger springs used. SAWs need to be light and ergonomic enough to carry and fire from the shoulder, but GPMGs benefit from large and heavy box magazines, longer barrels, and bipods. Non-techs will want to find a gun that fits their preferred role. For techs, what upgrades to make first are dependent on what they want the gun to do. [B]PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS [/B]There are a number of considerations when choosing a support gun beyond which of the two general roles the gun is intended to serve. These are the external differences that make one gun different from another beyond sheer performance, and can make or break an MG. -Bipods are very useful to have. When prone, they allow the user to rest the gun and more accurately fire, without needing to try to support the whole gun or balance it on a magazine. One thing to note is that not all bipods are created equal. Those that are made of thick metal and hang from the front of the barrel, such as on the L86 or M60VN, add a significant amount of weight and by concentrating it to the front make the gun more difficult to shoulder fire. Thinner, more rear-placed bipods like on the M249 and Mk43 are easier to carry, but somewhat less useful in supporting the gun. -Ammunition feed. Some support guns use auto-winding box magazines, others feed from standard magazines, and a few like the M249 can feed from either. Auto-winding boxes, like on M60s, M249s, M240s, and the upcoming PKM, can hold an enormous number of rounds and require no input from the machine gunner to feed. Magazines are smaller and more ergonomic, but midcaps hold few rounds, hicaps need to be wound up, and drums like the motorized c-mag are plagued with reliability issues. Magazines can be shared with rifles, allowing compatibility with magazines from other guns, but each mag still needs to be purchased separately. Each type has advantages and disadvantages, so largely it comes down to personal preference. -Accessories, while mostly unneeded for MGs, can still be handy. Foregrips can improve ergonomics and handling, and scopes can aid in spotting and tracking long-range fire, making walking the shots to the target easier. I have personally had success using an Elcan mounted on my M60, as the wide lens makes it easier to see where pellets are hitting. Such accessories are by no means necessary, so again it's a matter of personal preference. -Ergonomics, on the other hand, is a serious concern. Some guns, like the M240, are so heavy that most players can not effectively shoulder fire them. Others, like M60s, have a side-placed box magazine that can be uncomfortable to use. And bullpup MGs, like the L86, have their own ergonomic considerations. How a gun is carried and used should be evaluated before buying it and committing to its use. -Slings can be very important, since many replica MGs, in particular those made by clone companies, have weak carry handles that will eventually snap under the strain. Even if this isn't the case, transferring the weight from the arms to the shoulder is a noticeable improvement when lugging the gun around. Given the relative inexpense of a padded sling, it is definitely a solid investment. [B]CHALLENGES [/B]Before you decide to go out and purchase your first MG, there are a number of weaknesses you should be aware of. While I'd love to say that MGs are kings of the battlefield and thereby validate my own role, the truth is that as with anything else in airsoft there are drawbacks to using a support gun as a primary weapon. -First off, support guns are universally heavy. The very lightest ones are usually at least 10lbs, with the heaviest climbing up over 20lbs. This is a lot to carry for a day, and limits what else can be carried. A smaller player can still use an MG, but probably won't be carrying much else. A sling is always a good investment as noted above. -A machine gunner is a high-visibility player, especially when deployed and firing. This makes him a prime target for snipers, designated marksmen, other machine gunners, grenadiers, and pretty much anything else looking for a single high-value target to shoot at. Finding hard cover helps, but if an MGer becomes suppressed his weapon is too heavy to quickly use to pop off shots or redeploy. This threat can be mitigated somewhat, as an assistant gunner can help spot threats, and a competent squad can provide supporting fire to flush out snipers and eliminate grenadiers before they can get close. However, the threat is always there and a machine gunner will be the target of choice for many of these players. -Make no mistake, using an MG is expensive. The guns are relatively expensive to begin with due to their larger size, the volume of fire incurs higher ammunition expenses, and parts wear down quickly and need replacement more frequently. It is not as expensive as heavily upgrading a sniper rifle or becoming a full-fledged grenadier, but it is definitely a consideration. -You will be forced into a more specialized role than with a rifle. You lose the ability to be a jack of all trades, and you will have to be a team player to be useful. And you will probably not get many kills, either. Remember, you're a [I]support[/I] gunner. Your job is to aid your team, not go Rambo. As long as someone on the other team is keeping his head down, you're contributing. Keep these basic tips in mind and you'll do fine. [B]REVIEWS[/B] -[URL="http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=761773"]A&K M60E4/Mk43[/URL] -[URL="http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1141192"]A&K M60VN[/URL] -[URL="http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?1010744-Echo-1-Red-Star-LMG-%28RPK-74%29&p=25282509#post25282509"]Echo 1 RPK-74[/URL] As you can see, the list above is very short. I'd like to hear any input you guys have, as well as links to other reviews to add to the list.

ifap machine guns and automatic rifles feat.killer [IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj66/the_killer23/arepkay.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj66/the_killer23/m60.jpg[/IMG] [editline]14th March 2012[/editline] pls divide into belt-fed machine guns and standard magazine fed automatic rifles

[QUOTE=the_killer24;35144937]pls divide into belt-fed machine guns and standard magazine fed automatic rifles[/QUOTE] Could you elaborate?

[QUOTE=the_killer24;35144937]ifap machine guns and automatic rifles feat.killer [IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj66/the_killer23/arepkay.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj66/the_killer23/m60.jpg[/IMG] [editline]14th March 2012[/editline] pls divide into belt-fed machine guns and standard magazine fed automatic rifles[/QUOTE] RPK bros :) [t]http://i.imgur.com/MTXJu.jpg[/t] [editline]14th March 2012[/editline] your wood looks so much better than mine though

Man if only LMG's were a bit cheaper I would always support gun, I am the most(not to boast or anything) biggest/strongest member of my group of friends. They already complain about their weight of their current guns, what more a fucking beast of a machine gun.

[QUOTE=DarkZero135;35145040] your wood looks so much better than mine though[/QUOTE] I see what you did there.

faggots

your MG's are no match for my sniper!

[QUOTE=catbarf;35145034]Could you elaborate?[/QUOTE] like divide into section on beltfeds like 249, stoner 63, 60, pkm, etc and automatic rifles like l86, rpk(74), iar, etc because there are a lot of differences

Okay, I've wanted to be a support gunner for as long as I can remember, someone help me finally decide what I want. Needs to be: GPMG by catbarf's standards Able to mount a low-magnification scope stock, or with a small investment Must have a bipod Doesn't have to be light, I'm not a bitch. Also doesn't have to be necessarily ergonomic because this is a support weapon, I don't plan to fire from the shoulder much.

[QUOTE=FPKawaii;35152295]Okay, I've wanted to be a support gunner for as long as I can remember, someone help me finally decide what I want. Needs to be: GPMG by catbarf's standards Able to mount a low-magnification scope stock, or with a small investment Must have a bipod Doesn't have to be light, I'm not a bitch. Also doesn't have to be necessarily ergonomic because this is a support weapon, I don't plan to fire from the shoulder much.[/QUOTE] Are you willing to put some time and effort into upgrading, or would you prefer something that does the job stock?

[QUOTE=FPKawaii;35152295]Okay, I've wanted to be a support gunner for as long as I can remember, someone help me finally decide what I want. Needs to be: GPMG by catbarf's standards Able to mount a low-magnification scope stock, or with a small investment Must have a bipod Doesn't have to be light, I'm not a bitch. Also doesn't have to be necessarily ergonomic because this is a support weapon, I don't plan to fire from the shoulder much.[/QUOTE] Buy the G&P Stoner 63 pllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasssssse

[QUOTE=catbarf;35152380]Are you willing to put some time and effort into upgrading, or would you prefer something that does the job stock?[/QUOTE] I can do some upgrades, I know nothing about anything but V3s, V2s, 1911s and VSRs though.

[QUOTE=felix the cat;35152411]Buy the G&P Stoner 63 pllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasssssse[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=FPKawaii;35152476]I can do some upgrades, I know nothing about anything but V3s, V2s, 1911s and VSRs though.[/QUOTE] The Stoner 63 isn't bad by any means, but frankly a lot of its features are fairly mediocre and can be found in better form elsewhere. The box mag only holds about 1200 BBs (seems like a lot, but an RPK mag holds ~700 and can be easily swapped out, and a typical 249 box holds 2400), and relies upon its own 9V battery which means if the battery dies (happens very quickly in the cold) your gun stops working. The internal battery compartment can hold a large battery but is hard to get to (hex screws), so if your battery dies mid-game you're SOL and very high capacity batteries probably won't fit. And the worst part, I think, is that it uses a V2 gearbox, meaning its durability is in question and it's harder to upgrade than a lot of comparable machine guns. Considering it costs $470 from eHobbyAsia plus some ungodly shipping fee, that's a pretty steep price for a gun that's kind of limited out of the box. I'm sure it has G&P quality parts, and the external finish is wonderful, but for that price I'd expect more. This is all somewhat irrelevant, though, because it behaves more like an automatic rifle, like the aforementioned RPK, than as a true support LMG which is what it sounds like Kawaii is going for. So, with that said, you've got a couple of options. The A&K M60 (either a Mk43 or VN) could fit the bill with a hop-up and spring replacement. At about 390FPS, you'd have about 11-12rps on a 9.6V, which is pretty good for continuous suppression at longer range. The main problem is a lack of rails to mount a scope, but you can buy and fit a railed feed tray cover separately or do it yourself as I have if you have power tools available. Another possibility would be the Echo 1 M249 Para, which has a high rate of fire and overall better quality (especially hop-up) than the A&Ks, but the same problems with reliability of the box mag. Unlike the M60s, it has a rail standard that you could mount a scope to. If you have a set budget in mind we could probably narrow it down further.

Is the E1 249 not exactly the same as the A&K? If not, did they fix the trigger problem?

I'm 6'2", how would a Mk43 handle for me?

Dang you tall, 1.87 meters for us europeans.

from what I've seen the E1 249 is the same as the A&K (the E1 my friend used to have had terrible hopup, everything outranged it) Mk43 is surprisingly light and ergonomic compared to the full-size '60, if you're up for it you can use it as an automatic rifle with the magazine capacity of a belt-fed [editline]15th March 2012[/editline] 6'1"~ish gook and I can achieve better maneuverability and speed running the full-size '60 than other people at my field do with their ARs so I don't see why not

[QUOTE=cardfan212;35153211]I'm 6'2", how would a Mk43 handle for me?[/QUOTE] 6'2" master height

[QUOTE=DarkZero135;35154300]6'2" master height[/QUOTE] It's funny because the average height for my class is like 5'5" or 5'6" so I tower over most of my classmates.

[QUOTE=cardfan212;35153211]I'm 6'2", how would a Mk43 handle for me?[/QUOTE] Im 5'8" and I could use one with ease

Does anyone make a Stoner 63 that's actually modular and has rearrangable parts to make it into an LMG, automatic rifle, or whatnot? I'd be so over that shit.

gee und pee makes the only one

Nice guns.

[QUOTE=the_killer24;35154116]from what I've seen the E1 249 is the same as the A&K (the E1 my friend used to have had terrible hopup, everything outranged it)[/QUOTE] Oh, really? That's pretty sad considering the higher price tag. I guess the one I saw must have been heavily modified, I thought it was stock. For what it's worth, Echo 1 doesn't just slap their sticker on Chinese guns and call it a day. From what I've seen they take the better ones and send the lemons back, so at the very least you'll get better QC from an Echo 1. [QUOTE=the_killer24;35154116]Mk43 is surprisingly light and ergonomic compared to the full-size '60, if you're up for it you can use it as an automatic rifle with the magazine capacity of a belt-fed[/QUOTE] This. The Mk43 weighs 17lbs unloaded compared to the 18lbs of the VN, with the weight farther back due to the shorter length. The box mag placement is pretty obtrusive but you get used to it, and having used both the Mk43 and VN I much, much prefer shoulder firing the Mk43 because the foregrip means you can support the gun without tilting your wrist at a weird angle to get around the box mag. It's not as ergonomic as an M249, but it's close, and the box mag is much better- in fact, I'd say the A&K M60 box mags are probably the best ones out there. Huge capacity, uses gun power so no worrying about batteries, directly wired in so it fires when you do, and a spring-loaded flywheel design to ensure consistent operation without jamming. It is easily the best part of the gun. I'm also 6'2", and didn't have any trouble shoulder firing either the VN or Mk43. I switched to a Mk43 because the better ergonomics make it easier for me to carry another three guns as backup. Just about anyone should be able to use a Mk43, it's more a question of whether you'll be able to wield it like an assault rifle or like an MG.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XndIZM0Qf2A&feature=g-upl&context=G2e8b422AUAAAAAAAqAA[/media] [img]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll278/Foosili/DSCF1893.jpg?t=1315460932[/img] [img]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll278/Foosili/DSCF1906.jpg?t=1315460934[/img] [img]http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll278/Foosili/P1000245.jpg?t=1313542285[/img] i like me the big guns

lovely big guns

i like the big ones don't you

Would you guys consider an mg36 / g36e to be a support gun?

[QUOTE=Fish Muffin;35159196]Would you guys consider an mg36 / g36e to be a support gun?[/QUOTE] I'm on the fence with that for a couple of reasons. Yes: -It's a real gun -It's not just a G36C with a drum mag, it has to be a long and bulky gun -It's functionally equivalent to an RPK or similar automatic rifle No: -It has never been adopted or used -Functionally it's the same as any other rifle with C-mag -It's very light and operates like an assault rifle Personally I feel that if you used the proper model G36 it would be acceptable, and two guys on my team are doing just that. I could see some people looking down on it, and its effectiveness as a support gun could be questionable as the gearbox isn't as tough as that of a 249 or 60, but overall it's based on a real weapon so, experimental or not, it should be considered a support gun.