i was wondering if someone could convince me if something i've been thinking about is wrong, its about the way suicidal people are dealt with
this is how its really dealt with, they forcibly take you to this one sided institution where they try and convince you to live, even if you have perfect reasoning for wanting to go threw with it they simply drug you up to the point where you're too stupid to think that you want to kill yourself anymore.
noone can argue that some people actually do try to kill themselves when they don't really want to but how can anyone blame them? they realise that if they told anyone they would only try and convince them othewise
i put this crazy solution together in my head which i think would lower suicide rates.
i think there should be organisations out there where people give advice to suicidal people and if it turns out no amount of advice could convince someone that they don't want to die then they should simply be allowed to do it, if there where organisations like this out there i really think suicide rates would go down because there is nothing to be skeptical about, all they would be getting is honest answers and or though commiting suicide is a selfish act, how selfish is it to forcibly drug people when they don't want to live? you may also argue that its selfish because of the effect it would have on those who care about you, but wouldn't you feel better knowing that someone ended their life because its the way they wanted it? instead of living purely to not make you upset?
suicide can never be stopped, and or though knowing that someone you care for ended their life would still be hard to take, it wouldn't be quite as hard as never knowing why they did it, or if in their heart they where convinced that was the way they wanted it.
[QUOTE]if it turns out no amount of advice could convince someone that they don't want to die then they should simply be allowed to do it[/QUOTE]
but how would that lower suicide rates?
Advice alone isn't going to help most of the time and there already ARE organizations that give advice. Just letting them do it isn't a solution.
There's tons of ways to prevent suicide that work, rehab, anti depressants, therapy, etc. Many will cost money but simple giving advise does nothing. Money going towards free therapy and the like is what will lower it.\
Of course! Anti depressants can make it 3456 times worse but it changes a lot of lives. Drugs are a good thing. It keeps you alive and well, isn't that what counts?
[QUOTE]if there where organisations like this out there i really think suicide rates would go down because there is nothing to be skeptical about[/QUOTE]
which is of course true but, some people need that extra push against suicide and can make a full recovery.
I mean it's a good idea, just, there should be a harder hitting against suicidalism. This requires more than just organizations though, donations against it also majorly help.
i need to correct myself as it slipped my mind about people who have it as a condition, my solution was aimed more towards people in normal health, the bottom line of my solution towards these people is they would go to these places and be denied the option to end their lifes only if they exhibit signs that they don't actually want to do it, which will eventually make them realise that they wern't actually suicidal
(i don't know specifically how they should be run i am running off this basic principle)
Suicidal is a thing that people do not always intended, But thus it is wrong to suicide, Still wouldn't say that advice would help, Maybe therapy, Or something else but, Advice is just telling them, And stopping them will make it worse.
I'm really on the fence with this, I support stepping in and helping people with depression, with threapy, drugs, etc, after all it's just as, and if not more serious and lethal than any illness threatening the body, and yet it's not treated as such.
That said, sometimes people do kill themselves to avoid a suffering that could be a lot worse for them. Forcing them to live in that context is kind of cruel in my opinion.
Depression is a mental illness that, if it gets bad enough, can send people to delusion. I think if we can determine what's delusion, and what is mercy, we can save a lot of suffering.
For example, a man wants to die because he is completely paralysed and his life is a misery. I see no reason we should force him to live.
On the other hand, someone with chronic depression is deluded into a spiral of self-hatred. Depending on how bad they are, they could be saved from themselves, and letting them kill themselves would be a waste. We have a duty to help those that can be helped, and allow people that cannot be helped to die. I realise it's a thin line, but you can't really have it black and white.
At any rate, people will always be killing themselves, I merely suggest that we 'deal with' ones that can be saved, and allow mercy on those that deserve it.
[QUOTE=Cabbage;44530014]
For example, a man wants to die because he is completely paralysed and his life is a misery. I see no reason we should force him to live..[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure one of those was Euthanasia and the other was Suicide, both with the same result but a totally different beginning and should be treated differently.
I'm all for Voluntary Euthanasia when there's a consensus from both the Family, The Patient and the Doctor. I'm also all for the use of rehabilitation to help against suicide.
I've heard suicide is the highest killers in some countries, but I'm not sure if they're increasing or if they're just staying the same, and we're battling other issues more effectively.
Either way, it has to be dealt with.
I think you have to look as Suicide as not an individuals struggle but the people that are affected by that persons death. My cousin killed himself a month ago and my aunt is beside herself, it sounds really dickish and I understood what he was going through because I've got bipolar and it's fucked with my head in the past but Suicide is fucking selfish in my opinion. Having a place where you can be considered to off yourself won't help all the people who have loved that person all their life.
In a way, I don't think suicide is such a bad option. On the other hand, it is a huge stress on anyone who has a meaningful connection with you; but really, we should try to learn as a culture to stop making such a huge fuss about death. People who need to be chemically fucked with to not hate life probably deserve to bow out for the next thing, and people who know them should just accept that they'll see them in a few years on the other side.
[QUOTE=omarfr;44578721]I think you have to look as Suicide as not an individuals struggle but the people that are affected by that persons death. My cousin killed himself a month ago and my aunt is beside herself, it sounds really dickish and I understood what he was going through because I've got bipolar and it's fucked with my head in the past but Suicide is fucking selfish in my opinion. Having a place where you can be considered to off yourself won't help all the people who have loved that person all their life.[/QUOTE]
Suicide is selfish? I somewhat disagree. The way I look at it is basically, the grief that follows the death of a loved one, is like the withdrawal symptoms of a drug addiction. That person we convince ourselves that we love, is only important to us because of what we gain from them and nothing more (which is the epitome of selfishness). That person may be a source of joy for you for example, triggering all types of reactions in your brain causing you to feel happier with this person, or feel better. Therefore, causing you to like or love this person, like an addict returning to his drugs. When this person is gone, its like taking alcohol away from a drinker, or cigarettes from a smoker, or crack from a crackhead, in other words, this vein of potential stimulus you receive from this person evaporates, leaving you with the 'withdrawal' a.k.a grief (I'm not saying withdrawal = grief, im using it as an analogy). So my point here is that, the dude that's gonna kill himself is acting just as selfish as the people lamenting over him, so saying suicide is a fucking selfish thing, is no different from saying that people that 'miss you' are fucking selfish. And that makes sense, people are driven by 'selfishness'.
IMO:
[sp] If a suicidal person came to me and asked me whether he should live or die, I'd probably recommend him death just because 1. I dont see any real problem with it, you just die, its a bridge everyone's got to cross someday. 2. Its honestly imo, better because you don't exist anymore, so say goodbye to all troubles you would had to have faced in life, and it really does not matter if you miss out on all the good things either cause you dont exist anymore so you have nothing to regret to begin with. [/sp]
In real life I would never tell anyone this only cause the consequences could backfire on me, butthurt people could blame me for this dudes death, and im not down with that. So as a disclaimer: [sp] Depressed people out there, please don't kill yourself, there are plenty of people out there that could make good use out of you. [/sp]
[QUOTE=omarfr;44578721]I think you have to look as Suicide as not an individuals struggle but the people that are affected by that persons death. My cousin killed himself a month ago and my aunt is beside herself, it sounds really dickish and I understood what he was going through because I've got bipolar and it's fucked with my head in the past but Suicide is fucking selfish in my opinion. Having a place where you can be considered to off yourself won't help all the people who have loved that person all their life.[/QUOTE]
I find it to be more selfish of others to say "If you die, I'll be so sad, why don't you think about me, me, me, me, look at how this effects ME." That's worlds more selfish than taking your own life, everyone has the right to die, whether they wish to die now because they don't feel life is worth living, or later, is not your choice to make for them. What makes these other people so much more important? Why must one live to please them instead of ending their suffering? I'm sorry you lost your cousin, but he isn't selfish, he was desperate for a solution and no other solution was clearly there to him, whether you tried to be there for him or not, he didn't see it. And there's no shame in it mate, it's unfortunate as all hell that we as people have to accept this, but we live in a society where bullying and domestic issues are swept under the rug for men, we are told to man up and stop being an emotional bitch.
In the U.S. in 2005, 17.7 males per 100,000 took their own life, as opposed to 4.5 per 100,000 in females. This puts men at being 3.9 times more likely to take their own life than females are. And this can be directly attributed to the response we receive as men and the alienation that follows when we try to get help with our problems.
The problem with pretty much all existing types of support is that they base everything on "we will tell you lies and attempt to brainwash you until you tell us what we want to hear".
I've been to multiple psychologists for various purposes and reasons, and sessions with them are always the exact same thing. There's maybe one in ten who is sane and actually tries to help people with the problems they want help with, but the other nine are just there for the money. They disregard the actual issues, and single out something that's easy to blow out of proportion and poke at.
I imagine it's the same for suicide prevention. They don't give a shit WHY someone is suicidal, they just want to get rid of the desire to die. It just doesn't work; suicidal people feel as though suicide is the only option they have left. Take that away as well, and it makes them far more miserable than they were in the first place. The actual way to help suicidal people, is to help them work out their problems, until they see more options than suicide.
[QUOTE=draugur;44587059]I find it to be more selfish of others to say "If you die, I'll be so sad, why don't you think about me, me, me, me, look at how this effects ME." That's worlds more selfish than taking your own life, everyone has the right to die, whether they wish to die now because they don't feel life is worth living, or later, is not your choice to make for them. What makes these other people so much more important? Why must one live to please them instead of ending their suffering? I'm sorry you lost your cousin, but he isn't selfish, he was desperate for a solution and no other solution was clearly there to him, whether you tried to be there for him or not, he didn't see it. And there's no shame in it mate, it's unfortunate as all hell that we as people have to accept this, but we live in a society where bullying and domestic issues are swept under the rug for men, we are told to man up and stop being an emotional bitch.
In the U.S. in 2005, 17.7 males per 100,000 took their own life, as opposed to 4.5 per 100,000 in females. This puts men at being 3.9 times more likely to take their own life than females are. And this can be directly attributed to the response we receive as men and the alienation that follows when we try to get help with our problems.[/QUOTE]
I don't know, I think I have such a strong opinion about this because I myself have attempted to kill myself a long time ago. I was saved and put through the hospital and after thinking on it for so long it was one of the first steps to feeling better was realizing that even though I wouldn't know if I succeeded it would still be hurting people. To me it was seeing something greater than myself regardless of what happens in the end, and I chose being sad rather than letting everybody else be. Of course now 8 years later and I'm a much happier person, I've learned to appreciate things and feel a sense of purpose I guess. Seeing my cousin do it, I personally am not sad because I understand that he's much happier now that he can't think/feel but seeing it tear my family apart kills me.
I don't think it's selfish for them to be sad about their child/niece/whatever killing themselves. It's a natural emotion to have somebody especially somebody younger go before you. I just think there is a way for everyone to find happiness.
Let people kill themselves.
I know anecdotal experience isn't really well accepted in Mass Debate, but it's more-or-less my own reasons for never visiting a psych or ward for some of my own problems:
The most horrid thing about the modern era, is that people feel they have a right to decide whether or not someone should or shouldn't be allowed to kill themselves. It's disgusting. In the last six years, I have been plagued with problems regarding education, looks, and just all around I am one of the most anti-social pricks when it comes down to it. From a combination of issues or whatever trends my mind for a month, I'll periodically update a suicide note and will to keep some form of reason or motive to why I may one day decide to off myself, and yes, I have brought the barrel of a loaded gun under my chin, and considered my existence. Some people may say this is selfish, because you'll hurt your family if you off yourself, or people will feel like shit thanks to your death. My only response or reaction to this is: so what?
Let's pull back a bit... I have always had trouble with education, constantly looked for help, and get blown off with a simple, "Sorry, not good at (subject)." so I am left to my own devices, and usually dig myself out of my own troubles regarding whatever education related subject it is at that point. Things like this make me cynical regarding the concept I should even show a sense of mercy for someone's emotions. I have been fucked over, thrown aside, clawed at, used as an emotional tampon, and all my worth to some people is their emotions?
What happened to the sense of, "time moves on, troubles go by"? My corpse will exist under a granite slab, and any knowledge of my existence would only be brought up at, "Oh yes, remember when Joe did that?" or in the case of the grave yard, when a pair of rabbits piss on the dirt I am buried under.
It's childish and foolish to prevent death or attempt to fix depression. People kill themselves because they are burdened with problems or get sent into a vicious cycle, and no one offers them a hand to fix said problems. With that I'd also like to bring back to my entire point for posting this: Why I do not visit psychs or wards for my depression...
Well... Why? Because it would only further the reasons for me to kill myself. I would get addicted to some anti-depressant, records would exist on my name that would prevent me from getting a job and take my hobbies away, and I would be burdened with $1000's of dollars in fees related to actually getting "help". Like myself and many others... It just doesn't work.
The solution to suicide, is not to make the person look for help, it's to make them acknowledge theirs a problem, and devise a plan on how to fix the problem. The current method of psychology is the most ass-backward concept I have seen, and it defies all logic regarding studies in criminology and the human psychology. You cannot fix problems by throwing drugs at people, taking away their human rights, and vacating them from the rest of humanity. It doesn't fucking work. Help people with their problems regarding education, relationships, friendships, and unemployment. Teach them that they could find other reasons to live, and not vacate them with some abstract nonsense of, "just work harder :o"
I am sorry if I seem cynical or outright revolting for some of the things I said in this post, but that's the harsh reality. With the current system, people would be better off killing themselves.
It depends on how old the person is.
Everytime I hear about kids being bullied or shit and they commit suicide, I get fucking pissed.
Like what a bunch of fucking idiots. Oh no, someone called me "gay", better kill myself! #yolo
At least natural selection is still working.
(just incase if you can't tell, this is a joke, i have no opinion)
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("This is not debating - read the sticky" - Megafan))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;44627952]Let people kill themselves.
I know anecdotal experience isn't really well accepted in Mass Debate, but it's more-or-less my own reasons for never visiting a psych or ward for some of my own problems:
The most horrid thing about the modern era, is that people feel they have a right to decide whether or not someone should or shouldn't be allowed to kill themselves. It's disgusting. In the last six years, I have been plagued with problems regarding education, looks, and just all around I am one of the most anti-social pricks when it comes down to it. From a combination of issues or whatever trends my mind for a month, I'll periodically update a suicide note and will to keep some form of reason or motive to why I may one day decide to off myself, and yes, I have brought the barrel of a loaded gun under my chin, and considered my existence. Some people may say this is selfish, because you'll hurt your family if you off yourself, or people will feel like shit thanks to your death. My only response or reaction to this is: so what?
Let's pull back a bit... I have always had trouble with education, constantly looked for help, and get blown off with a simple, "Sorry, not good at (subject)." so I am left to my own devices, and usually dig myself out of my own troubles regarding whatever education related subject it is at that point. Things like this make me cynical regarding the concept I should even show a sense of mercy for someone's emotions. I have been fucked over, thrown aside, clawed at, used as an emotional tampon, and all my worth to some people is their emotions?
What happened to the sense of, "time moves on, troubles go by"? My corpse will exist under a granite slab, and any knowledge of my existence would only be brought up at, "Oh yes, remember when Joe did that?" or in the case of the grave yard, when a pair of rabbits piss on the dirt I am buried under.
It's childish and foolish to prevent death or attempt to fix depression. People kill themselves because they are burdened with problems or get sent into a vicious cycle, and no one offers them a hand to fix said problems. With that I'd also like to bring back to my entire point for posting this: Why I do not visit psychs or wards for my depression...
Well... Why? Because it would only further the reasons for me to kill myself. I would get addicted to some anti-depressant, records would exist on my name that would prevent me from getting a job and take my hobbies away, and I would be burdened with $1000's of dollars in fees related to actually getting "help". Like myself and many others... It just doesn't work.
The solution to suicide, is not to make the person look for help, it's to make them acknowledge theirs a problem, and devise a plan on how to fix the problem. The current method of psychology is the most ass-backward concept I have seen, and it defies all logic regarding studies in criminology and the human psychology. You cannot fix problems by throwing drugs at people, taking away their human rights, and vacating them from the rest of humanity. It doesn't fucking work. Help people with their problems regarding education, relationships, friendships, and unemployment. Teach them that they could find other reasons to live, and not vacate them with some abstract nonsense of, "just work harder :o"
I am sorry if I seem cynical or outright revolting for some of the things I said in this post, but that's the harsh reality. With the current system, people would be better off killing themselves.[/QUOTE]
I think you can appreciate why an admittedly depressed person's outlook on whether or not we should attempt to prevent suicide cannot be taken seriously.
Yet can you agree that throwing drugs at people is not going to fix anything? Anti-Suicide programs for the moment do not really do anything outside of plainly, "lets talk about it" or "lets throw drugs at them" and when you have it where looking for help can put you into a deeper hole, it's not wonder so many people end up killing themselves. No benefit comes from looking for help within the medical fields. Your only shot of bettering your situation, and making yourself less depressed come from a combination of you fixing the problems yourself, and getting help from friends and family. If the latter is not reached by the way, you can have a vicious cycle occur where someone feels trapped and alone.
I had a brush with depression myself. I understand the reluctance to get help and personally I worked through all of my own problems on my own. That doesn't mean I'm gonna sit back and go "yeah we should let that kid who could have easily been me off himself".
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44629445]I had a brush with depression myself. I understand the reluctance to get help and personally I worked through all of my own problems on my own. That doesn't mean I'm gonna sit back and go "yeah we should let that kid who could have easily been me off himself".[/QUOTE]
But why shouldn't we allow someone to make that decision for themselves. If they have tried several avenues, and it's come to nothing and they are still considering suicide, why stop them?
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;44629471]But why shouldn't we allow someone to make that decision for themselves. If they have tried several avenues, and it's come to nothing and they are still considering suicide, why stop them?[/QUOTE]
because it's not a healthy state of mind to make such a decision.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;44629490]because it's not a healthy state of mind to make such a decision.[/QUOTE]
A lot of things are like that, but if someone is in such a crushing state where they do not wish to live, what authority does another being have to proclaim that person may not take their own life? Even in a bad mental state, people should still be able to exhibit free will.
Antidepressants have helped me greatly. Ultimately anecdotals don't work for these sorts of discussions. Whether or not a treatment works for a person is greatly variable. You can't flatly claim drugs won't help at all. Likewise I can't claim they're a miracle cure. But it may be worth it for someone to try them before taking their life.
[QUOTE=omarfr;44592165]I don't know, I think I have such a strong opinion about this because I myself have attempted to kill myself a long time ago. I was saved and put through the hospital and after thinking on it for so long it was one of the first steps to feeling better was realizing that even though I wouldn't know if I succeeded it would still be hurting people. To me it was seeing something greater than myself regardless of what happens in the end, and I chose being sad rather than letting everybody else be. Of course now 8 years later and I'm a much happier person, I've learned to appreciate things and feel a sense of purpose I guess. Seeing my cousin do it, I personally am not sad because I understand that he's much happier now that he can't think/feel but seeing it tear my family apart kills me.
I don't think it's selfish for them to be sad about their child/niece/whatever killing themselves. It's a natural emotion to have somebody especially somebody younger go before you. I just think there is a way for everyone to find happiness.[/QUOTE]
It's not selfish to be sad about it, it's selfish to use it as a reason as to why they shouldn't do it.
The outlook on suicide as a whole is just somewhat odd and one sided, and telling the suicidal person that they don't have the right because they aren't in the right state of mind is silly, are they supposed to wait for it to (possibly never) improve before making the choice?
Here's a breaker, I've been thinking of suicide lately myself because everything in my life has fallen apart for the most part and things are about to get much, much worse for me, and due to having a shitty life in the first place the thought of just saying fuck it and "rage-quitting" life sounds really really nice to me. I'm a person who never catches a break and at this time I don't even have the money to see a proper therapist. The only person I can talk to really is my mother and it hurts her if I mention anything so I bottle it all up.
If needed I could recount my entire life and every misstep (and I have to a few friends who have all responded with "how the fuck have you handled that all.") so I like to think I'm clear of mind. Suicide is a ugly thing and people are willing to call it selfish, but aren't they being selfish for demanding you stay around soley for their sake? It's [b]my[/b] life to throw away if I decide to, the best thing to do with it is to just try to listen to the person and help them. Been said if that doesn't work then let the person do what they honestly feel is right.
I do think the current system of drugging the shit out of people isn't totally right though, it scares people and keeps them from revealing their problems (Hell I've been hovering over the post button for the past five minutes) but it is something that should be talked about.
There isn't really a logical reason for opposing antidepressants. It's chemicals for your chemical brain to fix a chemical imbalance. I know that's not how it seems when you're depressed though
For me it's basically if I need to have pills to make me think life is worth living then well... is life really worth living?
Diabetics require insulin doses to survive. Schizophrenics need medication to function. Why are antidepressants so evil then?
Yeah, that's exactly the kind of weird illogical thought a depressed mind tricks itself into believing
[QUOTE=BlueChihuahua;44630035]Diabetics require insulin doses to live. Schizophrenics need medication to function. So why are antidepressants so evil then?[/QUOTE]
Never said they were evil, or that I was fully against other people using them. Just in my case it's how I feel about myself which is why I don't think it's a good idea for other people to act as if they know everyone's situation without context. It's why I said I think talking to people would be more important then saying "don't worry if you admit it we're going to give you pills your gonna love it."
[QUOTE=BlueChihuahua;44630035]Diabetics require insulin doses to survive. Schizophrenics need medication to function. Why are antidepressants so evil then?[/QUOTE]
to be fair that's a (little) different but not at all far off and a very logical reason
depression can be more serious than those two things as well, however, but it's not really a disease, simply a state of mind.
In the end really, drugs can help and [U]easily[/U] change lives. Pushing them off at all would be pretty silly but in some cases they can make it worse off or just hide the issues. [I]HOWEVER[/I], you can't at least use them and still try and work against depression, so it likely wouldn't hide issues anyways.
Fighting depression is a progressive struggle
I'd like to explain my personal experience with antidepressants. In no way do I mean to imply the results are universal and guaranteed. Everybody's situation is unique after all. But I want to show the power of brain chemistry.
The things that were eating away my soul were very much real. They resulted in daily crying spells, meltdowns, and constant daydreams of killing myself. I couldn't imagine pills fixing me because the roots of my grief were entirely real. But I took them.
The bad things didn't go away. What happened was that suddenly I could see the good things too. Suddenly I could find small joys and beauty. There was still cruelty, but it was now mixed with color. The chemicals in my brain made me blind to anything good and happy.
Now I have the capacity to feel both happy and sad. Pills weren't what made me want to keep living. The pills only made me realize what I already had to live for.
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