God I love Maddox. Although I liked him more before the video series, because now we know that sarcastic internet legend looks like a sickly bald guy.
He does make a good point. I see a lot more complaining/preaching rather than actual action when it comes to things like this. As Gandhi said, you must be the change you wish to see in the world.
Holy shit can you get more stereotypical?
This video's premise is ridiculous. Not only does it propose that men inherently suck at writing female characters (because apparently it's impossible for men to relate to women), but he also equates video games as the "male counterpart" to stuff like women's magazines (even though we have men's magazines too?). The "Shut up and fix the problem yourself" argument is also incredibly asinine. Women can't just start making video games to "fix" the way they're portrayed because said shitty portrayal alienates women from the gaming industry/community, making them turn away from such career options.
Before we can start doing that people need to know there's a problem in the first place, and making noise and creating discussion is a good way to do that.
That said, I completely agree with the last part, we do need more women working in the videogame industry, but in order to have that happen, we need to [B]encourage[/B] them to do so, and right now the industry has been doing a shit job at it.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40930890]Holy shit can you get more stereotypical?
This video's premise is ridiculous. Not only does it propose that men inherently suck at writing female characters (because apparently it's impossible for men to relate to women), but he also equates video games as the "male counterpart" to stuff like women's magazines (even though we have men's magazines too?). "Shut up and fix the problem yourself" argument is also incredibly asinine. Women can't just start making video games to "fix" the way they're portrayed because said shitty portrayal alienates women from the gaming industry/community, making them turn away from such career options.
Before we can start doing that people need to know there's a problem in the first place, and making noise and creating discussion is a good way to do that.
That said, I completely agree with the last part, we do need more women working in the videogame industry, but in order to have that happen, we need to [B]encourage[/B] them to do so, and right now the industry has been doing a shit job at it.[/QUOTE]
Then there's this guy.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40930901]Then there's this guy.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry? I'm just saying why I think this guy is wrong and how [I]I[/I] think we should fix this. If you think I'm mistaken you're welcome to speak your mind.
Hell, I'd appreciate a good critique.
based maddox laying the cold hard truth down
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40930926]I'm sorry? I'm just saying why I think this guy is wrong and how [I]I[/I] think we should fix this. If you think I'm mistaken you're welcome to speak your mind.
Hell, I'd appreciate a good critique.[/QUOTE]
If Facepunch has taught me anything, trying to have an open minded conversation with someone who's willing to write an essay after skimming through parts of a video will lead to nothing but you aggressively enforcing your opinion and I don't have the 4 hours necessary to explain every detail to you.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40931077]If Facepunch has taught me anything, trying to have an open minded conversation with someone who's willing to write an essay after skimming through parts of a video will lead to nothing but you aggressively enforcing your opinion and I don't have the 4 hours necessary to explain every detail to you.[/QUOTE]
That's a whole lot of assumptions you're making. I watched the whole video and I disagree with most of it because it's a gross simplification of a complex issue. Seriously, please tell me what did I say that was so unreasonable.
I'm neither "enforcing" my opinion nor making personal attacks, I don't see why would you get so defensive. If you don't have an argument, just rate me dumb and move on, but please don't presume you know me because you've read a couple posts I've made.
The problem that I find with the guy's argument is that he's pretty much implying that the sexist, objectifying material that some videogame developers put out is what best serves men's interests.
I'm a man. I don't like over-sexualization nor under-representation of women in videogames, and I think there are many other men out there who don't either. To say that guys aren't just content with cheesy and dehumanized female characters but also [I]find appeal[/I] in them is sexist in itself, and I mean that in an anti-male way.
[IMG]http://puu.sh/3a2G3.png[/IMG]
10/10
Alright, let's go down that road.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40930890]Holy shit can you get more stereotypical?
[b]Simplification=/=Stereotypical[/b]
This video's premise is ridiculous. Not only does it propose that men inherently suck at writing female characters (because apparently it's impossible for men to relate to women)
[b]Men can't fully relate to women because men are not women. This same basis is the reason behind the rejection of "furries" in real life social societies. Seriously, you can't explain it any deeper than that. It's like saying "Oh, skydivers? I can relate to them." when you're a cashier. No you can't, because you're a fucking cashier. Debit, please.[/b]
but he also equates video games as the "male counterpart" to stuff like women's magazines (even though we have men's magazines too?).
[b]Many modern magazines are run by a majority of and for women, it's the closest thing to what you'd consider a women-based industry.[/b]
The "Shut up and fix the problem yourself" argument is also incredibly asinine. Women can't just start making video games to "fix" the way they're portrayed because said shitty portrayal alienates women from the gaming industry/community, making them turn away from such career options.
[b]Certain you skimmed over the video now. Many modern games have already been created in part by women. Women who stopped preaching and went out to fix it themselves. Aka "Shut up and fix the problem yourself", as you would say. They faced alienation and looked past it to focus on their success, like any functioning human being would do.[/b]
Before we can start doing that people need to know there's a problem in the first place, and making noise and creating discussion is a good way to do that.
[b]Like there hasn't been enough complaining and preaching about it?[/b]
That said, I completely agree with the last part, we do need more women working in the videogame industry, but in order to have that happen, we need to [B]encourage[/B] them to do so, and right now the industry has been doing a shit job at it.
[b]The industry doesn't have to "encourage". Manure farmers don't "encourage" people to become shit shovelers. They simply wait for the person who dreams of being the best shit shoveler they can be.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Furnost;40931193][IMG]http://puu.sh/3a2G3.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
This guy is a master in the art of missing the point.
It's stupid that he thinks it's up to the underdog to sort it's own problems out when it's clear that it's not possible. Do sick people just cure themselves? Does a hopeless addict just "stop" being an addict?
You don't have to be sick to understand sick people and you don't need to be an addict to understand they need help. This Maddox guy is basically saying that we can't understand that which is different.
Are women so different and enigmatic that we men can't understand how to create realistic female characters? What a joke.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40931251]Alright, let's go down that road.[/QUOTE]
That's the spirit!
[quote]Simplification=/=Stereotypical[/quote]
Okay, it's not stereotypical. It's a simplification, explain to me how is that a good thing.
[quote]Men can't fully relate to women because men are not women. This same basis is the reason behind the rejection of "furries" in real life social societies. Seriously, you can't explain it any deeper than that. It's like saying "Oh, skydivers? I can relate to them." when you're a cashier. No you can't, because you're a fucking cashier. Debit, please.[/quote]
This is a shitty excuse to justify apathy and a false equivalence. Men can totally relate to women, anyone who spends time and understands women knows that. Second, not relating to women isn't the same as not relating to furries, I have no idea why you made this comparison. One is a person of the opposite gender and the other is a fandom based around anthropomorphic animals.
[quote]Many modern magazines are run by a majority of and for women, it's the closest thing to what you'd consider a women-based industry.[/quote]
Yet many more magazines are run by a majority of men, what's your point?
[quote]Certain you skimmed over the video now. Many modern games have already been created in part by women. Women who stopped preaching and went out to fix it themselves. Aka "Shut up and fix the problem yourself", as you would say. They faced alienation and looked past it to focus on their success, like any functioning human being would do.
[/quote]
Again, I did not skim over a two minute video. More women are joining the game industry and they have created games, yes. And no, it isn't because they "stopped preaching", many of them are [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umj2dnACo64"]still "preaching"[/URL]. Even then, those women are a minority still subject to sexism. If you're seriously gonna deny that then you're completely out the loop.
[quote]Like there hasn't been enough complaining and preaching about it?[/quote]
If it's still a problem and people like you still throw hissyfits when they "preach and complain" about it then obviously not.
[quote]The industry doesn't have to "encourage". Manure farmers don't "encourage" people to become shit shovelers. They simply wait for the person who dreams of being the best shit shoveler they can be.[/quote]
Yeah because the videogame industry is totally the same as shoveling shit. Another false equivalence.
Many industries have programs to encourage young adults of different demographic sectors to join their ranks by offering incentives.
Oh my god, I'm actually having fun destroying you now.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931316]
It's stupid that he thinks it's up to the underdog to sort it's own problems out when it's clear that it's not possible. Do sick people just cure themselves? Does a hopeless addict just "stop" being an addict?
[/QUOTE]
What kind of comparison is this? Seriously.
An illness is something that REQUIRES help. No industry is going to give you a helping hand, because they want you to show the hard work you're willing to put out there.
You're nurturing when people want equality.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931316]This guy is a master in the art of missing the point.
It's stupid that he thinks it's up to the underdog to sort it's own problems out when it's clear that it's not possible. Do sick people just cure themselves? Does a hopeless addict just "stop" being an addict?
You don't have to be sick to understand sick people and you don't need to be an addict to understand they need help. This Maddox guy is basically saying that we can't understand that which is different.
Are women so different and enigmatic that we men can't understand how to create realistic female characters? What a joke.[/QUOTE]
Because women getting jobs in the industry is the same as someone stopping their addiction.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40931377]Oh my god, I'm actually having fun destroying you now.[/QUOTE]
wow duder thats pretty wacky and indie and funny
[QUOTE]An illness is something that REQUIRES help. No industry is going to give you a helping hand because they want you to show the hard work you're willing to put out there.[/QUOTE]
are you aware of what job shadowing or internships are. they're pretty useful for evaluations
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40930890], we need to [B]encourage[/B] them to do so, and right now the industry has been doing a shit job at it.[/QUOTE]
Buddy, you're not from around here are you? This is earth.
I don't have someone encouraging me to go out and make a difference in the world and most people who do make one, do it on their own. There are few people in this world who will get hand held their whole lives because it's easier for the hand holder to just do the job.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;40931414]wow duder thats pretty wacky and indie and funny
are you aware of what job shadowing or internships are. they're pretty useful for evaluations[/QUOTE]
But you still need to put in effort. I'm stating that his comparison is silly.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40930887]God I love Maddox. Although I liked him more before the video series, because now we know that sarcastic internet legend looks like a sickly bald guy.
He does make a good point. I see a lot more complaining/preaching rather than actual action when it comes to things like this. As Gandhi said, you must be the change you wish to see in the world.[/QUOTE]
Words are action. Just as much as you just see it as complaining others see it as a venue to voice their distaste for the industry at large. This voice, if unified is powerful enough to make a change but is matter of factly being squelched like the guy in the video who just say "Shut up and fix it yourself." People here have said it before. The industry is marketing to the lowest common denominator, the public opinion if you will. Public opinion wont be changed by women working in the industry; It'll be changed by the public being enlightened in some way or another to the inherent problems within the system itself.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40931442]But you still need to put in effort. [B]I'm stating that his comparison is silly.[/B][/QUOTE]
and why is it silly
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931316]This guy is a master in the art of missing the point.
It's stupid that he thinks it's up to the underdog to sort it's own problems out when it's clear that it's not possible. Do sick people just cure themselves? Does a hopeless addict just "stop" being an addict?
[/QUOTE]
If someone wants something bad enough then they do the best they can.
Some people want to bitch about the problem. Some people want to fix the problem.
[QUOTE=The Janitor;40931461]If someone wants something bad enough then they do the best they can.
Some people want to bitch about the problem. Some people want to fix the problem.[/QUOTE]
oh so people who point out problems don't actually want them fixed
who knew
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40931377]Oh my god, I'm actually having fun destroying you now.[/QUOTE]
read my post again
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931316]You don't have to be sick to understand sick people and you don't need to be an addict to understand they need help. This Maddox guy is basically saying that we can't understand that which is different.
Are women so different and enigmatic that we men can't understand how to create realistic female characters? What a joke.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between understanding something and actually having knowledge about it. Some people in the industry would know that women are poorly represented in video games, but they would benefit with some input from.. you know, a woman?
I could probably surround myself in all my friends who are women but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly an expert on them and I could write good female characters.
Developers would benefit from both genders at the writing tables, expecting a crack team of males to write on behalf of everyone with little input from outside is a quite a feat.
Are we taking everything that comes out of Maddox's mouth as balls to the wall serious now?
This guy has been around since last millennium and we are just now getting angry over what he says?
[QUOTE=Winters;40931446]Words are action. Just as much as you just see it as complaining others see it as a venue to voice their distaste for the industry at large. This voice, if unified is powerful enough to make a change but is matter of factly being squelched like the guy in the video who just say "Shut up and fix it yourself." People here have said it before. The industry is marketing to the lowest common denominator, the public opinion if you will. Public opinion wont be changed by women working in the industry; It'll be changed by the public being enlightened in some way or another to the inherent problems within the system itself.[/QUOTE]
Now that's a calm argument I can understand.
[QUOTE=NoaJM;40931483]There's a difference between understanding something and actually having knowledge about it. Some people in the industry would know that women are poorly represented in video games, but they would benefit with some input from.. you know, a woman?
I could probably surround myself in all my friends who are women but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly an expert on them and I could write good female characters.
[B]Developers would benefit from both genders at the writing tables[/B], expecting a crack team of males to write on behalf of everyone with little input from outside is a quite a feat.[/QUOTE]
exactly
but to say men can't write decent female characters is kind of insulting don't you think
they're not a different species. it's not exactly difficult to just treat them like the humans they are
if all your female characters are overly weak and sexualised you can't exactly blame that on mere ignorance
[QUOTE=NoaJM;40931483]There's a difference between understanding something and actually having knowledge about it. Some people in the industry would know that women are poorly represented in video games, but they would benefit with some input from.. you know, a woman?
I could probably surround myself in all my friends who are women but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly an expert on them and I could write good female characters.
Developers would benefit from both genders at the writing tables, expecting a crack team of males to write on behalf of everyone with little input from outside is a quite a feat.[/QUOTE]
I agree completely, but the thing people don't get is that we're not going to see more women in the game industry unless the people running said industries begin to realize that women can be interested in them as well. Video games are mainly marketed for a male demographic, yet women make up about 40% of all gamers.
Secondly, the game development industry is rampant with sexism. Why would women want to work in an environment that is hostile to them?
Like I've said before, we need to fix those things in order to have a more equal gaming industry. Women won't just "start making games" to end sexism unless we show that we are willing compromise as well.
didn't really watch past "so men making games for men don't portray women right. no duh?" or whatever it was he said tbh. incredibly bad opening.
since when did game devs stop making games for gamers and instead for men?
yes it is up to the disenfranchised and the minorities to stop being oppressed, not on us, the majority to stop oppressing
Dr. Gestapo just stop before you get yourself hurt somehow.
I know this is the internet but you sound stupid enough to actually managing that.
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