Kansas's ravaged economy a cautionary tale as Trump plans huge tax cuts for rich - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Is [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/donaldtrump"]Donald Trump[/URL] about to turn America into Kansas? It’s a question some worried people who live in the state are asking as the Republican party pushes through the biggest tax overhaul in a generation – an overhaul that, they claim, bears an uncanny resemblance to a tax plan that left their midwestern home in disarray. After a failed economic experiment meant to boost economic growth blew a [URL="http://kcur.org/post/new-revenue-numbers-grow-kansas-budget-gap-nearly-600-million#stream/0"]hole[/URL] in the Kansas budget as big as a prairie sky (a $350m deficit in the current fiscal year and nearly $600m in the next) state jobs and services have been slashed. Prison guards are sharing stab vests at the El Dorado maximum security prison in southern [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/kansas"]Kansas[/URL]. At the end of a shift, the sweat-soaked vests, worn all day in a facility without air conditioning, are passed to the next person by guards, many of whom are coming off 12- or 16-hour shifts. Jail cells designed to hold one inmate are housing three or four at Ellsworth correctional facility. Riots have broken out at other prisons. The family of one guard who recently killed himself told union reps stress and over-work were to blame. [B]Next year, the state faces a school shutdown after the supreme court found its educational spending was unconstitutionally low.[/B] Some of those schools have already had to shorten the school year in order to save cash. To make ends meet, money that was earmarked for roads has been diverted to the general fund. A state that[URL="http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article51972555.html"] used to maintain 1,200 miles[/URL] of road a year is now repairing 200 miles a year. Even in the capital, Topeka, potholes are everywhere. The crisis follows the 2012 passage of a tax plan by Kansas governor Sam Brownback that he dubbed “the march to zero”. Individual state income tax rates dropped from 6.4% to 4.9% – with the intention of getting rid of them altogether eventually. Taxes were eliminated on so-called pass through entities – businesses where taxes are collected at the rate of the business owner and not at the corporate rate. The plan would provide a “shot of adrenaline” to the Kansas economy, Brownback claimed. Instead, the state’s revenues collapsed. Rich people who had been paying high taxes became “pass-through entities”. The state’s coffers emptied and the promised economic miracle failed to materialize. Lisa Ochs, president of the American Federation of Teachers-Kansas, said Brownback’s plan is a scale model of Trump’s plans. He, too, intends to cut taxes for businesses and give big breaks to the rich in a plan he says will provide “rocket fuel” for the American economy. “There never was a shot of adrenaline. If anything, that shot put the state on life support,” she said. “It’s the same thing that Trump is saying: there’s going to be tremendous job growth. Well, that didn’t happen either. It’s going to take an entire generation to undo this damage.” Ochs said: “I just hope the country can listen to us. Don’t do what we did.” [/QUOTE] [URL]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/10/donald-trump-kansas-failed-tax-cuts[/URL]

That's horrifying. [editline]11th December 2017[/editline] Does anyone here live in Kansas?

[quote]Next year, the state faces a school shutdown after the supreme court found its educational spending was unconstitutionally low. Some of those schools have already had to shorten the school year in order to save cash. To make ends meet, money that was earmarked for roads has been diverted to the general fund. A state that used to maintain 1,200 miles of road a year is now repairing 200 miles a year. Even in the capital, Topeka, potholes are everywhere. [/quote] Yeah, but we need that money for the military /s

It's really not that hard lmao. We're pretty obviously far left of the top of the laffer-curve, since that seems to be what they banked on as they were forced to slash their spending. There's too many examples to not notice.

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52965807]That's horrifying. [editline]11th December 2017[/editline] Does anyone here live in Kansas?[/QUOTE] Yeah, and this shit is the reason my sister ended up changing her major from education to HR. Our state government couldn't possibly give less shits than it does right now. My entire age group went to school during this period of UNCONSTITUTIONALLY LOW funding. My high school only 2 years before I had attended back in 2010 had over 5 different languages and an entire wing of the school dedicated for them, and in about that time they slashed them all down to French and Spanish. The fucking German teachers were forced to be substitutes for English because all of the schools in the state did the same thing. [editline]11th December 2017[/editline] Note: I live in Wichita the largest city (if you don't count the small pocket of KC in the NE), and our road construction lately has been swift. We have a lot of new highway being built and its been coming along quickly so I haven't seen much of the "potholes everywhere" thing, but then again I don't ever find myself in Topeka.

Kansan here. I live near Topeka. There used to be some really bad pot holes in some back roads between stores. Although it took them what felt like a year to improve an intersection...

It's almost as if Republican economic policies are completely fucking retarded.

It'll trickle down any day guys. Any day.

Trickle down works for liquids, not for money. Money gets hoarded in endlessly deep buckets while those underneath remain dry

No guys, the money totally doesn't get put into bonds and stocks where it produces even more money since the turbocapitalism that Trump&Co. preach caused posessing capital to have a higher return than production since the 70's. Totally not happening. [img]http://radioopensource.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Screen-Shot-2014-04-29-at-10.46.24-AM1.png[/img] [img]http://peoplespolicyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/growth.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=IKTM;52966153]It's almost as if Republican economic policies are completely fucking retarded.[/QUOTE] Thats because they take the minor boosts that small adjustments to tax rates bring and shove it all to the extreme. Its actually going to be interesting to see how quickly the bond market melts down since that money the gop keeps insisting is doing nothing is actually all invested in the bond market but nobody is talking about that

This is just [I]so[/I] fucking dumb it's amazing, "oh shit we decided to take in less money but still spend the same amount and now we're going bankrupt wtf!!"

I live in Kansas and I have heard that our local high schools had to cut some courses over the last few years. It sucks because up until Brownback made these cuts a few years back Kansas wasn't in massive debt. State tax was already such a small chunk of my income taxes idk why they even bothered lowering it. It may be a stretch saying our economy is ravaged though. Oil is doing well, wheat had a good harvest this year and business has been good for me as well.

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52965807]That's horrifying. [editline]11th December 2017[/editline] Does anyone here live in Kansas?[/QUOTE] I moved to Kansas a few months ago from L.A. and I gotta say it's better here than in California. Like, there's so much work here, I see help wanted signs in every window, there's factories here in many communities. In L.A., I saw a factory once when I worked in one for 2 months and the conditions for workers there was awful. 10-11 hour weekday shifts and mandatory 12 hour Sunday or Saturday shifts. I know it's popular to shit on right wing economic policies, and I'm not a huge fan of trickle down either, but I've lived in a fairly left wing state my entire life and I'll tell you that the difference between Kansas and Cali is staggering and I'll pick the "trainwreck" in Kansas to the economic nightmare that is Cali, and let's not forget cost of living, in Cali a crappy 1 story, 1600 sq ft house is ~1.5 million dollars, in Kansas a NICE 2 story, 3200 sq ft house is at most ~250,000 dollars. It's simply a better deal here, more work, lower CoL. Growing up in Cali no kid had a job. None, McDonald's workers were always over 40, no one would hire kids. Entry level jobs were not entry level, you needed experience to flip fucking burgers. I moved to Kansas and every retail store had a teenager working, the youngest I saw was like 16; that's fucking unheard of in L.A. And I'm in training for Secondary Education and I have no idea what all these people are saying that education is doing poorly in Kansas. We get monthly reports on teaching jobs in available Kansas as well as programs available in those schools and the deals are better than in Cali. Some schools will pay you a stipend to teach there if they're more rural. Schools here are ASTOUNDINGLY better than in LAUSD, like, miles better, smaller class sizes, more classes offered, students give a shit, even the benefits for teachers are slightly better.

Kansan here. I'm dropping out of uni for other reasons, but financially speaking they've raised tuition quite a bit during my time there. Lots of stories of schools making cuts for asinine stuff just to save money, etc. There are nice places here but man, I can't wait to see who we're replacing Brownback with.

I've always found it funny that people take a statement like: [QUOTE]Next year, the state faces a school shutdown after the supreme court found its educational spending was unconstitutionally low.[/QUOTE] ... and fail to ask the question: "OK, how are the results?" I just took a look, and Kansas has: - Above average ACT scores ([URL]https://blog.prepscholar.com/act-scores-by-state-averages-highs-and-lows[/URL]) - Above average SAT scores ([URL]https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-by-state-most-recent[/URL]) - Ranked in the top half of states for education, 14th out of 50. ([URL]https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education[/URL]) - Almost exactly average in NAEP assessments, in every category ([URL]https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile?chort=2&sub=WRI&sj=AL&sfj=NP&st=MN&year=2007R3[/URL]) - Test scores have either stayed flat or increased from 2016 to 2017 ([URL]http://cjonline.com/news/state-government/education/2017-10-17/kansas-students-performance-state-reading-and-math-tests[/URL]) None of this seems to describe a system in collapse.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52966666]I moved to Kansas a few months ago from L.A. and I gotta say it's better here than in California. Like, there's so much work here, I see help wanted signs in every window, there's factories here in many communities. In L.A., I saw a factory once when I worked in one for 2 months and the conditions for workers there was awful. 10-11 hour weekday shifts and mandatory 12 hour Sunday or Saturday shifts. I know it's popular to shit on right wing economic policies, and I'm not a huge fan of trickle down either, but I've lived in a fairly left wing state my entire life and I'll tell you that the difference between Kansas and Cali is staggering and I'll pick the "trainwreck" in Kansas to the economic nightmare that is Cali, and let's not forget cost of living, in Cali a crappy 1 story, 1600 sq ft house is ~1.5 million dollars, in Kansas a NICE 2 story, 3200 sq ft house is at most ~250,000 dollars. It's simply a better deal here, more work, lower CoL. Growing up in Cali no kid had a job. None, McDonald's workers were always over 40, no one would hire kids. Entry level jobs were not entry level, you needed experience to flip fucking burgers. I moved to Kansas and every retail store had a teenager working, the youngest I saw was like 16; that's fucking unheard of in L.A. And I'm in training for Secondary Education and I have no idea what all these people are saying that education is doing poorly in Kansas. We get monthly reports on teaching jobs in available Kansas as well as programs available in those schools and the deals are better than in Cali. Some schools will pay you a stipend to teach there if they're more rural. Schools here are ASTOUNDINGLY better than in LAUSD, like, miles better, smaller class sizes, more classes offered, students give a shit, even the benefits for teachers are slightly better.[/QUOTE] Rapid economic growth is the primary driver of the issues you're mentioning in California. The lower and middle classes are being priced out of the state, especially in the big cities like San Francisco and LA, because the economy exploded so rapidly that it resulted in runaway inflation -- which is one of the dangers of a market that is doing TOO well. It's not that California's economy is bad, but rather that it did so exceptionally well that it outgrew its ability to accommodate everyone. The Midwest, on the other hand, has a shaky financial history plagued by collapsed markets and deflation as a result of rapid deindustrialization, white flight / suburban migration, and (more recently) the great recession and housing bubble burst of ~'08, among other factors. Simply put, the cost of living is great in most of the Midwest because of an unstable economic foundation. The Midwest has, of course, been steadily improving. It's economy is benefiting from growth as a result of increased economic activity over the last 8-10 years. However, as you saw in California, there [I]is[/I] such a thing as [I]too much[/I] growth, too quickly. Even pretending that the tax scam being forced through by the GOP will have its advertised results, which is unlikely given the glaring holes and oversights in this handwritten mess, the very core philosophy of it is flawed, because our country does not [B]need[/B] a stimulus right now. We're already growing quite quickly, on average, and have been for quite some time. Many economic experts are concerned because this bill could be hitting the gas when we need to be slowly pumping the brakes to keep things under control for the lower and middle class.

my tax bracket is so fucked that I could make nearly as much money flipping burgers, and then my before tax wages will be low enough that I'd qualify for snap. I'm apparently "rich" according to obama but after fucking 43% between state and federal taxes I'm barely seeing half of the money I work for. I'm looking forward to a republican tax plan.

[QUOTE=butre;52967048]my tax bracket is so fucked that I could make nearly as much money flipping burgers, and then my before tax wages will be low enough that I'd qualify for snap. I'm apparently "rich" according to obama but after fucking [b]43%[/b] between state and federal taxes I'm barely seeing half of the money I work for. I'm looking forward to a republican tax plan.[/QUOTE] How much are you earning??? Jesus You live in Mississippi according to your FP profile? According to [url=https://smartasset.com/taxes/mississippi-tax-calculator#XZnnVtNnVj]this[/url] you'd have to be earning about $800,000 to pay that much?

[QUOTE=ghghop;52966128]. Note: I live in Wichita the largest city (if you don't count the small pocket of KC in the NE), and our road construction lately has been swift. We have a lot of new highway being built and its been coming along quickly so I haven't seen much of the "potholes everywhere" thing, but then again I don't ever find myself in Topeka.[/QUOTE] The improvements to Kellogg aren't due to be finished until we least 2021, I'd hardly call them quick. I suppose I don't have much of a frame of reference though aside from the previous improvements there. This is a difficult state to live in. It's easy to overlook how rough life in the country actually is for a lot of Wichitans/outsiders. [editline]11th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;52966747]I've always found it funny that people take a statement like: ... and fail to ask the question: "OK, how are the results?" I just took a look, and Kansas has: - Above average ACT scores ([URL]https://blog.prepscholar.com/act-scores-by-state-averages-highs-and-lows[/URL]) - Above average SAT scores ([URL]https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-by-state-most-recent[/URL]) - Ranked in the top half of states for education, 14th out of 50. ([URL]https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education[/URL]) - Almost exactly average in NAEP assessments, in every category ([URL]https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile?chort=2&sub=WRI&sj=AL&sfj=NP&st=MN&year=2007R3[/URL]) - Test scores have either stayed flat or increased from 2016 to 2017 ([URL]http://cjonline.com/news/state-government/education/2017-10-17/kansas-students-performance-state-reading-and-math-tests[/URL]) None of this seems to describe a system in collapse.[/QUOTE] I suppose if you choose to ignore that the schools are paying stagnant wages and are consistently fighting to scrape enough up to keep essential staff on board while cutting the arts, yeah sure. Things are going to look great in a few years when the schools struggle to find qualified instructors. Or when the wave of kids that didn't have to experience serious budget issues for the majority of their education have moved on. Brownstain has only been gov since 2011, the damage will manifest fully with time. If anything the test scores are high because all the kids are motivated to get the fuck out of Dodge (literally in this case).

[QUOTE=bigdandyd;52966648]I live in Kansas and I have heard that our local high schools had to cut some courses over the last few years. It sucks because up until Brownback made these cuts a few years back Kansas wasn't in massive debt. State tax was already such a small chunk of my income taxes idk why they even bothered lowering it. It may be a stretch saying our economy is ravaged though. Oil is doing well, wheat had a good harvest this year and business has been good for me as well.[/QUOTE] Same, mostly. Ravaged is uhh... melodramatic to say the least. I'm not super educated on our tax system (only moved to Kansas here a few years ago) but the biggest thing I've heard is that parents are having to buy a bit more school supplies than previous years. Jobs are balls easy to get, and there are SO many opportunities here, especially if you live within driving distance of KCK

[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;52967126]I suppose if you choose to ignore that the schools are paying stagnant wages and are consistently fighting to scrape enough up to keep essential staff on board while cutting the arts, yeah sure. Things are going to look great in a few years when the schools struggle to find qualified instructors. Or when the wave of kids that didn't have to experience serious budget issues for the majority of their education have moved on. Brownstain has only been gov since 2011, the damage will manifest fully with time. If anything the test scores are high because all the kids are motivated to get the fuck out of Dodge (literally in this case).[/QUOTE] I'm looking at real numbers as opposed to internet forum projections. If you want to argue that the education system is failing in Kansas, then provide evidence for it. I'm willing to read it. I went into my search not know what I would find, and what I found was that they're doing pretty well.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52966763]Rapid economic growth is the primary driver of the issues you're mentioning in California. The lower and middle classes are being priced out of the state, especially in the big cities like San Francisco and LA, because the economy exploded so rapidly that it resulted in runaway inflation -- which is one of the dangers of a market that is doing TOO well. It's not that California's economy is bad, but rather that it did so exceptionally well that it outgrew its ability to accommodate everyone. The Midwest, on the other hand, has a shaky financial history plagued by collapsed markets and deflation as a result of rapid deindustrialization, white flight / suburban migration, and (more recently) the great recession and housing bubble burst of ~'08, among other factors. Simply put, the cost of living is great in most of the Midwest because of an unstable economic foundation. The Midwest has, of course, been steadily improving. It's economy is benefiting from growth as a result of increased economic activity over the last 8-10 years. However, as you saw in California, there [I]is[/I] such a thing as [I]too much[/I] growth, too quickly. Even pretending that the tax scam being forced through by the GOP will have its advertised results, which is unlikely given the glaring holes and oversights in this handwritten mess, the very core philosophy of it is flawed, because our country does not [B]need[/B] a stimulus right now. We're already growing quite quickly, on average, and have been for quite some time. Many economic experts are concerned because this bill could be hitting the gas when we need to be slowly pumping the brakes to keep things under control for the lower and middle class.[/QUOTE] Interesting, good to know this kind of stuff considering I know a lot of people moving or wanting to move out of the state entirely. Of course California can go rot off and fall into the sea for a plethora of other reasons not related to the job market, namely the toxic political culture.

Born in kansas and lived there my whole life, only moved to texas last year. The state probably isn't as bad off as a sensationalist headline may make it out to be but its definitely going down hill. And a lot of problems that could face the nation as a whole these days echo what kansas people have seen before in their own state government (shutdowns and whatnot) so its probably not an entirely unfair comparison. Even people I know there who are strictly conservative republican hate brownback with a passion.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52967312]I'm looking at real numbers as opposed to internet forum projections. If you want to argue that the education system is failing in Kansas, then provide evidence for it. I'm willing to read it. I went into my search not know what I would find, and what I found was that they're doing pretty well.[/QUOTE] You read those sources so hard you somehow missed their 4% SAT participation and gave their higher education ranking as their public education ranking. All of their educational rankings are average at best (or in some cases even below average) and, as the article in the OP states, the Kansas supreme court found their education spending to be so low it's unconstitutional. You should be smart enough to know budget issues are something that hold long term consequences, not immediate explosions, especially if they're just now barely getting by. But if you want numbers the only ones really posted are from 2015 where their employee spending and spending per student are woefully low. [URL]http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52967103]How much are you earning??? Jesus You live in Mississippi according to your FP profile? According to [URL="https://smartasset.com/taxes/mississippi-tax-calculator#XZnnVtNnVj"]this[/URL] you'd have to be earning about $800,000 to pay that much?[/QUOTE] Probably an exaggeration, but tax rates for middle class are idiotic and it's not really any wonder why we're being killed off when we've been attacked at pretty much every presidency. If you include my [U][I][B]garbage[/B][/I][/U] [U][I][B]mandatory[/B][/I][/U](you guys ever wonder why a lot of people wanted Obamacare dead? Here you go.) health insurance, FICA, federal, and state, I'd have a tax rate of around 50%. May as well move to Europe at this point.

[QUOTE=butre;52967048]my tax bracket is so fucked that I could make nearly as much money flipping burgers, and then my before tax wages will be low enough that I'd qualify for snap. I'm apparently "rich" according to obama but after fucking 43% between state and federal taxes I'm barely seeing half of the money I work for. I'm looking forward to a republican tax plan.[/QUOTE] A better idea is to invest in the fortune 500 (and register yourself as a independent contractor from bermuda through visa fuckery if your willing to go that far) than even remotely attempt to trust the current political climate.

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52968095]A better idea is to invest in the fortune 500 than even remotely attempt to trust the current political climate.[/QUOTE] A thousand times this. The market is the safest, best investment you can make. Even if you had put money into the S&P 500 right before the 2007/2008 recession, you'd have made back 1.8 times what you invested if you held on to it until today.

[QUOTE=Anderan;52968037]You read those sources so hard you somehow missed their 4% SAT participation and gave their higher education ranking as their public education ranking. All of their educational rankings are average at best (or in some cases even below average) and, as the article in the OP states, the Kansas supreme court found their education spending to be so low it's unconstitutional. You should be smart enough to know budget issues are something that hold long term consequences, not immediate explosions, especially if they're just now barely getting by. But if you want numbers the only ones really posted are from 2015 where their employee spending and spending per student are woefully low. [URL]http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html[/URL][/QUOTE] Not to mention that he's completely ignoring the personal testimony I'm giving pointing to that I've had friends and family working for the schools that have moved or have considered moving because of the budget situation. A member of my nuclear family does budgeting for a local school. It really is fucked beyond belief, any worse and it would mean shutdowns. The kids are already in class an extra hour every day to cut down on labor and reduce the number of days the schools are open. It's horrible for the young ones who lack the mental endurance to focus that long. The SAT rate in particular may simply reflect a preference of local universities for the ACT. The greatest determinate of educational outcomes is the quality of education at a young age, rather than at a high school level. Citing stats from 2015 tells you very little. SG, let's talk again in 2023 and review for a couple years to see the impact this administration has had on educational outcomes.

[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;52968475]The SAT rate in particular may simply reflect a preference of local universities for the ACT.[/QUOTE] Which is entirely reasonable but he felt their "above average" scores were relevant enough to mention but having slightly above average scores with only a 4% participation isn't even worth mentioning.