Germany could impose partial ban on face veils - Polidicks

[quote]Germany could become the next European country to ban face veils under a proposal announced on Friday by officials in the ruling coalition. [b]The officials intend to have the face veils banned in public places where identification is required -- such as registry offices, schools, kindergartens and government offices[/b] -- saying that they did not fit in with Germany's society. "Full-face veils, as mentioned, we reject this. Not just the burka, any full-face veils that only shows eyes of a person," said Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere at a press conference held by members of the Christian Democratic Union and their allied Christian Social Union, which govern in a coalition. "It does not fit into our society for us, for our communication, for our cohesion in the society.... This is why we demand you show your face." The proposed partial ban is to promote security and national cohesion, de Maiziere said, denying that plans for the ban were to appease the increasingly popular right-wing AFD party. "We do what we deem is right, and the AFD can behave in their own way," he said. Berlin Interior Minister Frank Henkel supported the proposal, adding that the full-face veil "does not fit in with our understanding of a tolerant, free society. It does not fit in with our view of women." De Maziere also said that Germany would mull stricter child marriage laws and that the justice minister was already looking into the issue, adding that "a child marriage is not accepted in Germany."[/quote] [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/19/europe/germany-veil-ban/index.html[/url] [url]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-burqa-germany-idUSKCN10U0V6[/url]

This is actually somewhat reasonable compared to the bullshit France is pulling. If you go to a kindergarten or a school wearing a ski mask, it's pretty reasonable for them to tell you to take it off so they can ID you. If you want to wear a full veil in the park, that's nobody else's problem. If you go to a government registry office in a full veil, where you're literally required to be [I]identified[/I] to be registered for anything, a ban makes sense. This has a limited scope, a distinct, defined purpose, and it applies to all full facial coverings and not just a certain style of clothing.

I don't see how it would be legal either way, at least for government buildings I mean masking your face near a government building should be illegal no matter what Government property is the one place I truly agree with heavy ID-ing and heavy surveillance. No hats, no gloves, no glasses.

i have mixed feelings about this. on one hand, veils that block the face can be a security issue in some places, like banks or government offices. a ban for face veils while driving also makes sense. also according to the reuters article, it states not many people even wear the full veil. [QUOTE]A study carried out by the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees in 2009 found that more than two-thirds of Muslim women in Germany did not even wear a headscarf. The niqab covers the hair and face except for the eyes.[/QUOTE] however, if we look at their other arguments for the ban and who is making the argument, it starts falling apart. for example, much of the argument and push for this is made by christian coalitions, which I am sure have their biases [QUOTE]"Full-face veils, as mentioned, we reject this. Not just the burka, any full-face veils that only shows eyes of a person," said Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere at a press conference held by members of the Christian Democratic Union and their allied Christian Social Union, which govern in a coalition. "It does not fit into our society for us, for our communication, for our cohesion in the society.... This is why we demand you show your face."[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Regional interior ministers belonging to Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU) and her Christian Social Union (CSU) allies presented a declaration in Berlin on tougher security measures, including more police and greater surveillance in public areas.[/QUOTE] then there is the problem of banning students from wearing this in schools. I don't get the security hazard of a girl several years of age wearing a veil, it just seems like a cause of unneeded drama. also there are the people who say that islam is compatible with the constitution and all that stuff, ignoring the fact that free religion is a thing as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights of others. that whole argument is ridiculous. im not sure what to say, I can see why this argument is being made, and if carefully put in place, it may even work for everyone. but lets be serious, any law like this will be poorly defined and executed, and just cause more problems/

[QUOTE=da space core;50914635]i have mixed feelings about this. on one hand, veils that block the face can be a security issue in some places, like banks or government offices. a ban for face veils while driving also makes sense. also according to the reuters article, it states not many people even wear the full veil. however, if we look at their other arguments for the ban and who is making the argument, it starts falling apart. for example, much of the argument and push for this is made by christian coalitions, which I am sure have their biases then there is the problem of banning students from wearing this in schools. I don't get the security hazard of a girl several years of age wearing a veil, it just seems like a cause of unneeded drama. also there are the people who say that islam is compatible with the constitution and all that stuff, ignoring the fact that free religion is a thing as long as it doesnt infringe on the rights of others. that whole argument is ridiculous. im not sure what to say, I can see why this argument is being made, and if carefully put in place, it may even work for everyone. but lets be serious, any law like this will be poorly defined and executed, and just cause more problems/[/QUOTE] The "christian" is pretty much just a name though. It doesn't have any meaning in practical terms.

as long as they don't do this by naming specific arabic face veils, and instead specifying fabric that goes over the face, I think this is fine.

I don't think you can participate in normal society with a full face veil, unlike other Islamic dress. I still don't favour a ban, but not all bans on religious dress are equal. A hijab and a burqa are a world apart.

I may have come off as a retard in the France thread. But this is definitely something I can get behind. As it stands already, it's illegal in most countries to conceal your identity. I don't think there should be exceptions just because of religion. Is simply public safety.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50914632]I don't see how it would be legal either way, at least for government buildings I mean masking your face near a government building should be illegal no matter what Government property is the one place I truly agree with heavy ID-ing and heavy surveillance. No hats, no gloves, no glasses.[/QUOTE] What about those of us who don't wear glasses to look smart?

[QUOTE=Bradyns;50915113]What about those of us who don't wear glasses to look smart?[/QUOTE] I should have said 'sunglasses' to be fair since i guess a glasses ban would kind of not make sense :v:

[QUOTE=SirJon;50914734]The "christian" is pretty much just a name though. It doesn't have any meaning in practical terms.[/QUOTE] It does have some implications (no gay marriage while even the USA have it :glare:), but the average German Christian is really secular so these are pretty much your average conservative parties. Religious freedom and equal rights are protected despite there not really a fundamental separation between church and state. It's definitely a lot more noticeable regarding refugee issues and certain cultural issues that intersect religion though, so while I agree with this ban here I'm also pretty sure that at least some of the people involved have ulterior motives.

I live in Dearborn Michigan, I'm pretty sure it is the city with the highest concentration of Arab Americans on this side of the world if I'm not mistaken. Needless to say about 90% of people in my neighborhood are Arab Americans, most signs read in both English and Arabic. Kind of a cool place to live really. But I do come across the full face veil on a day to day basis, and my feelings are split on the issue. On one hand, I believe everyone has the right to practice their religion free of judgment. On the other hand, walking into the local police department in a garb that keeps law enforcement from identifying who you are is not entirely 'proper'. I do believe in certain places/situations there should be limits on how veiled you can be. I've seen a few women at my local SOS office have their drivers license picture taken in full garb, and to me it just seems useless to take their picture at that point... It's a strange issue really, but I think for the sake of properly utilizing government services there should be some sort of restriction. Not for the sake of going against anyone's religion, more to hold up the integrity of how a lot of our systems work in the modern world. Edited, I'm mobile boys & girls my apologies.

[QUOTE=SirJon;50914734]The "christian" is pretty much just a name though. It doesn't have any meaning in practical terms.[/QUOTE] It refers to CDU and CSU though, with the CDU being conservative and the CSU being... CSU. So there's a point to be made there. The rhetoric is the usual "it's just a security measure, but yeah also it really doesn't belong in our culture and uh our society, so that's why we are doing it, for security purposes." It might be a much milder ban than other ones, but it seems to be reusing the exact same rhetoric, sans appeals to secularism.

On another note, face-covering bans do have a precedent in Germany: It's not allowed to protest while trying to hide your identity according to the 'Vermummungsverbot', targeting anything carried to conceal your identity. This is the reason people wear their Guy Fawkes masks on the back of their heads when they bring them to protests here (which is kind of skirting the boundaries since the objects don't have to be used to be illegal, but there's a loophole for when there's no intention to use them that way either). The penalty of that law is far too harsh to use it for the veil ban (also considering that here it's not [I]as much[/I] an immediate security thing), but they probably could take some of the wording from there. Religious freedom in Germany also hardly overrides other laws anymore (pretty sure it's roughly on the same level as freedom of speech plus some defensive protections), so it would be consistent with the body of law as a whole. The most noticeable intersection is probably employment law, where the Catholic church [I]may[/I] be able to fire employees who remarry if such a clause had been included in the employment contract. (I [I]think[/I] the case regarding that is still somewhat ongoing though.) [editline]19th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;50914632]I don't see how it would be legal either way, at least for government buildings I mean masking your face near a government building should be illegal no matter what Government property is the one place I truly agree with heavy ID-ing and heavy surveillance. No hats, no gloves, no glasses.[/QUOTE] Funnily enough those places actually have less surveillance than your average medium-size store :v: Germany isn't big on public surveillance, so the majority of government buildings just plain doesn't have [I]any[/I] automated systems in that regard. Certain important places do have it of course, but in my experience it's extremely rare. We take privacy very seriously over here.

It's completely fair. Even my sister who I've mentioned before is Muslim aswell as her husband agrees that wearing the clothing that covers the face in a place that requires identification and security is stupid.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50914632]I don't see how it would be legal either way, at least for government buildings I mean masking your face near a government building should be illegal no matter what Government property is the one place I truly agree with heavy ID-ing and heavy surveillance. No hats, no gloves, [B]no glasses.[/B][/QUOTE] But then I can't see?

[QUOTE=Neroxen;50918342]But then I can't see?[/QUOTE] at least it makes you less of a threat :v:

[QUOTE=J!NX;50919807]at least it makes you less of a threat :v:[/QUOTE] not if you are driving

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50923108]You already are a threat if you are driving in a government building or a kindergarten[/QUOTE] What if you are driving into the car-park of a kindergarten? That could end rather baddy.