• Law Grads Face Brutal Job Market
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[quote] Members of the law-school class of 2011 had little better than a 50-50 shot of landing a job as a lawyer within nine months of receiving a degree, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of new data that provides the most detailed picture yet of the grim market for law jobs. Under pressure from disillusioned graduates and some professors, the American Bar Association for the first time released a tally of the previous year's graduates who have secured full-time, permanent jobs as lawyers. Until recently, the ABA required law schools to report only general data about how their graduates fared, such as how many were employed full-time or part-time in any kind of job, whether or not it required a law degree. The numbers suggest the job market for law grads is worse than previously thought. Nationwide, only 55% of the class of 2011 had full-time, long-term jobs that required a law degree nine months after graduation. The ABA defines "long-term" jobs as those that don't have a term of less than one year. Of course, it isn't uncommon for people to attend law school to advance their career without practicing law. Several law-school deans cautioned against placing too much emphasis on jobs requiring a law degree. Nationally, 8% of 2011 graduates were said to be in full-time, long-term jobs for which a law degree was preferred but not required, according to the Journal's data analysis. Another 4% were employed in full-time, long-term positions for which professional training was required but for which a law degree offered no advantage. The numbers capture only 2011 graduates and measure their employment status within nine months of graduation. That time frame tends to favor top schools whose students often—in good times and bad—land jobs before graduation, according to several law-school deans. Some schools said that many of their graduates found work as sole practitioners or at smaller firms, which tend not to hire full-time until graduates pass the bar exam. It is tough to compare the law-school situation to the job market for other advanced degrees. About 78% of 2011 graduates of M.B.A. programs landed jobs within three months of getting their degrees, according to U.S. News & World Report, although the figures don't show whether the jobs required the degree. That percentage was based on 135 of 441 schools responding to the magazine's survey; business schools aren't required to report placement statistics. The new details are likely to feed a debate about the value of a law degree. More than 40,000 students enter the law-job market annually. In the past year, law-school graduates have filed more than a dozen lawsuits around the country alleging that some schools misled students with job-placement statistics. The 2011 data reinforce the notion in the industry that students from the top 14 U.S. law schools have little trouble finding work. The top-ranked schools sent graduates into long-term legal jobs in high numbers, but 87 lower-tier schools had placement rates of 50% or less. The data cover 198 of 201 ABA-accredited schools. A spokesman said data on two schools in Puerto Rico were pending. A third school, the Judge Advocate General's Legal Center and School in Charlottesville, Va., doesn't confer a J.D. The data analysis showed: Only about 8% of 2011 graduates landed full-time, long-term jobs at larger firms with more than 250 attorneys. Just a dozen schools reported that 80% or more of graduates found full-time, long-term legal jobs. The top five included the University of Virginia (95%), Columbia University (94%), Stanford University (91%), New York University (90%) and Harvard University (90%). More than 20 schools reported that fewer than 40% of their graduates had secured such jobs. The bottom five included Whittier College (17%), University of the District of Columbia (21%), Golden Gate University (22%), Thomas Jefferson School of Law (27%) and Western New England University (30%). Several deans say the data paint a bleaker picture of their schools than justified. In a sluggish economy, smaller firms are less likely to take a chance on recent grads, says Penelope Bryan, dean of Whittier Law School in Orange County, Calif. Instead, she says, they may hire graduates on a contract or part-time basis before making offers. Whittier, with annual tuition of about $39,000, reported that 17% of its 2011 graduates were in full-time long-term legal jobs nine months out, among the lowest in the nation. Forty-one percent of the school's graduates were unemployed and seeking jobs, the data show. Compare that to its class of 2010 figures in U.S. News & World Report's annual law-school rankings, which are widely followed. The school reported to the magazine that 85.5% of its 2010 grads were employed nine months after commencement and 4.3% were unemployed. (This was before schools had to specify whether the jobs required a law degree or were part-time.) "We consider this a problem," Ms. Bryan says of the school's more recent figures. "We have redesigned completely our career development and we expect to see some improvement, but in the meantime we've had to live with this transition." Drucilla S. Ramey, dean of Golden Gate University in San Francisco, said many of the school's students "do not characteristically go to work for the larger firms or clerkships which generally select and hire much earlier than other employers." Thomas Jefferson School of Law, in San Diego, reported that about 27% of its 2011 graduates had full-time, long-term legal jobs nine months after graduation, according to the data. The 2010 data reported in U.S. News showed more than 68% were employed nine months out. "You can't measure the value of a law degree in terms of what your employment number was nine months after graduation," says Dean Rudy Hasl. A graduate who takes the California bar exam in July, he says, won't get the results until late November. Many employers won't even interview a graduate who hasn't been licensed, Mr. Hasl says, adding that he advises prospective students to consider the law degree a long-term investment. "The law degree is something that allows you to move in so many directions," he says. Katherine Broderick, dean of the University of the District of Columbia David A. Clarke School of Law, says the school caters to students seeking a law degree to get ahead in their careers but who don't intend to practice law, including government workers. UDC reported that about 21% its 2011 grads had obtained full-time, long-term legal jobs nine months out. Another 15% were said to be in full-time, long-term jobs in which a law degree is preferred but not required. The dean of Western New England declined to comment. The data captured a few unranked schools that appeared to vastly outperform their peers in the lower tiers, as well as several ranked schools. St. Mary's University School of Law in San Antonio, for instance, reported that 78% of its graduates held full-time, long-term jobs that require a law license nine months out. Only a dozen schools reported a higher percentage. Dean Charles Cantú says that is a reflection of the diversity and number of small law practices in and around San Antonio. More than 40% of the school's 2011 graduating class joined firms of 10 attorneys or fewer, according to the data.[/quote] [url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304458604577486623469958142.html?mod=WSJ_hps_editorsPicks_1[/url]
50-50 chances of getting a job within 9 months? Dayum
Just like pretty much anyone else.
It's the worst time for college graduates since the Great Depression, good to see people are finally realizing this.
Good that I don't have that problem as an engineer.
Just to let everyone know, even with the job market the way it is -- There are still jobs to be had. They may not be your dream job, but its a job. If you are seriously looking for a good-paying job, and are good at math, contact the FAA about becoming an Air Traffic Controller. You can make up-to (and more then) 100k a year with mandatory retirement w/ benefits & pension at age 56. The FAA will hire people off the streets to become an ATC.
Too many people watching Law and Order
haha welcome to my world [editline]25th June 2012[/editline] protip: go straight into paralegal work. you can actually get a job that way.
My girlfriend graduated with a law degree. She's now ended up doing a business masters. Yeah, Law is bullshit for jobs, I'm even surprised its as high as 50%.
Article is slightly sensationalist, since the "only 50% of law grads can find a job" figure counts only for employers who hire on a graduate full time on salary If you keep reading, they mention a majority of law firms will only hire recent grads on as part time until they pass the bar exam, while others flat out won't hire anyone who hasn't taken the bar exam yet. I.E. most law graduates probably do end up finding jobs, it's just the "50%" that don't have full-time salary positions within a year, probably work part time doing what they do until they pass the bar, which is the thing that actually makes you a legally recognized independent lawyer to the state (and to your employer). This also doesn't account for people who start up their own firms or use their law degree for other purposes. Not saying this is any better, but it's just more evidence that we live in a world where the "college dream" is proven false - where you spend 4 years at college and you get garunteed a job somewhere. We're transitioning into a world where raw education is valued less. People look more and more for candidates who have a more refined education. Education you can't get just by going to school for four years - where your actual experience, creativity, drive, and what you can do with that raw education factors into making your "refined" educational worth. Degrees these days are nothing more than tools to get jobs, not a magic ticket. That tool in the past was retardedly powerful, due to the amount of people on this planet and the amount that were educated. Now a days, everyone is educated, and there is a SHIT ton of people. You can't expect to get a degree and magically get a job unless you happen to be in a town with a huge demand for your market/field, or you have very specialized knowledge. You need to use your degree as simply a tool, or a foundation for your actual career. And more and more employers are looking for people who have done this, versus those who simply posses "raw" education. Sadly, we also still live in a world where such education is still highly overvalued based on the past, to the point where many people pay extremely high tutition, and are willing to pay such tuition, on the false belief that it's a direct key to a job, when it really isn't. Especially for private universities, which are basically a scam designed to get as much money from you as possible.
And how are the actors doing? I'm planning on becoming one in Scottish Theaters and if things go better, maybe get a role in some movie or maybe a small series...
I feel this is related [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u9JAt6gFqM[/media] world without lankist mmhmmh [SUB][SUB][SUB] kidding, lankist is cool[/SUB][/SUB][/SUB]
[QUOTE=KorJax;36487319]Article is slightly sensationalist[/QUOTE] It really isn't, dude.
[QUOTE=Impact1986;36485969]Good that I don't have that problem as an engineer.[/QUOTE] Engineering high five. If we get out alive.
[QUOTE=acds;36487388]Engineering high five. If we get out alive.[/QUOTE] I am going to get onto Robotics/Cybernetics university course after summer the whole faculty (electrotechnics) is notorious for heavy alcohol usage should I be scared?
I like it when people say they want to become a lawyer so they can argue constitutional issues. I'm like, there are about three lawyers in this country that argue constitutional issues and they all graduated from Harvard in the 1970's. So unless you're planning on building a time machine, going back and starting your collegiate education before Jimi Hendrix was cool, I hope you enjoy spending all of your waking hours delving into the frivolous minutia of residential property disputes for pocket change and being massively in debt until you're 40. Maybe you can achieve your dream when they're all dead and you're on dialysis from your habitually heavy drinking and prescription painkiller abuse.
In 2008, Performing Arts graduates in the UK were more likely to be employed (not in their sector, in any job) then Engineering, Maths, IT, Biology or Physics graduates. It's somewhat depressing.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;36487571]In 2008, Performing Arts graduates in the UK were more likely to be employed (not in their sector, in any job) then Engineering, Maths, IT, Biology or Physics graduates. It's somewhat depressing.[/QUOTE] their horizons are incredibly broad because they're the same amount of unskilled in every department
[QUOTE=Lankist;36487593]their horizons are incredibly broad because they're the same amount of unskilled in every department[/QUOTE] When somebody has a doctorate in quantum physics, he will be probably more reluctant to go wash dishes than somebody who realizes his diploma says "creative writing".
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;36487631]When somebody has a doctorate in quantum physics, he will be probably more reluctant to go wash dishes than somebody who realizes his diploma says "creative writing".[/QUOTE] i considered getting a creative writing degree :( thankfully, i chose the infinitely more worthwhile field of [I]political science[/I] for my bachelor's i am a [I]scientist[/I]
[QUOTE=Lankist;36487593]their horizons are incredibly broad because they're the same amount of unskilled in every department[/QUOTE] Law students had the lowest level of unemployment at 6.2%... Not that that says anything about Law students :v:
goddamn merge.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;36487413]I am going to get onto Robotics/Cybernetics university course after summer the whole faculty (electrotechnics) is notorious for heavy alcohol usage should I be scared?[/QUOTE] You should be happy, means there is time for partying (basically the exact opposite of what everyone tells me engineering is, that and that I'm going to go insane). Also I remember talking to a guy that studied law, and he said that in there they get to the point where they rip eachother's books and annotations so that there is a lower chance they pass and therefore lower competition. What the fuck.
My favorite is when the students try to blame it on the economy or something outside of their control, because it isn't.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36487746]My favorite is when the students try to blame it on the economy or something outside of their control, because it isn't.[/QUOTE] it's because there are too many god damn lawyers. it doesn't matter how smart you are or what your GPA was when you got the degree. [I]everyone[/I] who gets it is smart. the difference between someone who gets a good job and someone who doesn't is that one of them is smart and has connections/networking skills/legacy and the other is just smart. [editline]25th June 2012[/editline] That, and there's way too many people who are like "I'm too bad at math to go into engineering and I can't pronounce enough latin words to go into medicine, so I guess I'll do law!" A lot of law students are way too interested in the [I]prestige[/I] of being a lawyer rather than the reality of being a lawyer. Thankfully, those types tend to drop out immediately.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36486225]haha welcome to my world [editline]25th June 2012[/editline] protip: go straight into paralegal work. you can actually get a job that way.[/QUOTE] if/when you're done with your education, I will be willing to hire you full time to yell "OBJECTION" at people for me (you have to live with me, and follow me everywhere 24/7)
[QUOTE=Lankist;36487699]i considered getting a creative writing degree :( thankfully, i chose the infinitely more worthwhile field of [I]political science[/I] for my bachelor's i am a [I]scientist[/I][/QUOTE] I considered that too. Then I asked myself. What's possibly easier to run as a hobby and what is more probable to land me on a secure career? What rather motivated me to go this way is that for example Asimov had Biology degree, gave lectures in it, and is still one of the most famous writers of all time. I think that if one goes to school, he should pick something that he really couldn't learn on his own.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;36487848]I considered that too. Then I asked myself. What's possibly easier to run as a hobby and what is more probable to land me on a secure career? What rather motivated me to go this way is that for example Asimov had Biology degree, gave lectures in it, and is still one of the most famous writers of all time. I think that if one goes to school, he should pick something that he really couldn't learn on his own.[/QUOTE] Honestly, it's not really fair to dismiss anything on an educational level. Creative Writing courses most certainly have educational value. The problem is that there aren't any job prospects. The key to getting a good degree is weighing what you [I]want[/I] to do with what you can get [I]paid[/I] for doing. If you don't mind living on low wages or having low career prospects, something like Creative Writing would be a wholly enriching field of study. But you simply can't go into it expecting to become the next Stephen King. You need to figure out which you want to sacrifice and to what extent: your personal dreams or a comfortable lifestyle.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36487774]That, and there's way too many people who are like "I'm too bad at math to go into engineering and I can't pronounce enough latin words to go into medicine, so I guess I'll do law!"[/QUOTE] The other stuff I'm not talking about, this is exactly what I am talking about. It's their choice what they want to go into, if they don't want to be realistic and research their job prospects then that is their problem, the reason I'm saying this is because I just saw the Huckabee special on Millenials and those fucking tools were all implying it wasn't their own decisions that caused them to be in the situation they are in. If you are hoping for a job in a field that you KNOW is oversaturated then you should realize that your hopes are nothing more than hopes.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36486225]haha welcome to my world [editline]25th June 2012[/editline] protip: go straight into paralegal work. you can actually get a job that way.[/QUOTE] That or start working on a student position during studies. Often enough after you finish you usually stay on. But yeah it's getting brutal. From my understand the advocate organisation here is pushing at unis to start throwing out a lot more people. And it's actually got a lot worse these past 3 years or so.
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