Fucking yes, I'm very happy he made the point that gamers aren't in control anymore, it's the shareholders.
I've long been advocating for gamers who give a shit about the state of the industry to buy stocks in game companies because when it's blatantly clear that the same set of people who are laughing all the way to the bank with Q3 revenue projections aren't the same poor sods who are stuck with an unfinished, buggy, DLC-ridden mess.
It's also very telling how few of the actual CEO's behind major publishers have any sort of background in the gaming industry despite the industry itself being around long enough to have gone through a major crash and produced substantial leaders from the old guard of their own.
The best shot that the older generation of gamers has to curbing this rot is to also be a part of the financial shareholders that they answer to. The recent Star Wars debacle lopping off the top of EA's share price was an excellent example that EA would've gotten away with it, hadn't they fucked with one of the most-loved properties of an entertainment leviathan. Speaking of stock prices, go take a look at most of the major publishers last year - a majority of them did very well, despite the stinkers.What's more is that investors are taking notice of the pliable nature of consumers in the sector and are beginning to construct ETF's dedicated to video games, [URL="https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GAMR/chart?p=GAMR#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%3D%3D"]such as this one, launched in 2016.
[/URL]
I'm happy that the outrage machine exists and I'm happy Jim made this point.
This is probably one of his best videos to date.
Elegantly shows many reasons why so many people have lost faith in the industry.
Great video.
This helps to put things into perspective a bit, as opposed to focusing on any single bits of statements made by individuals. I typically find Jims videos to be a bit longer than they need to, but in this case the run time was warranted.
"Games are expensive to make"
They already cost significantly more than a movie ticket at $60USD + DLC/Season Pass + optional Limited Edition
[QUOTE=snookypookums;53091639]Fucking yes, I'm very happy he made the point that gamers aren't in control anymore, it's the shareholders.
I've long been advocating for gamers who give a shit about the state of the industry to buy stocks in game companies because when it's blatantly clear that the same set of people who are laughing all the way to the bank with Q3 revenue projections aren't the same poor sods who are stuck with an unfinished, buggy, DLC-ridden mess.
It's also very telling how few of the actual CEO's behind major publishers have any sort of background in the gaming industry despite the industry itself being around long enough to have gone through a major crash and produced substantial leaders from the old guard of their own.
The best shot that the older generation of gamers has to curbing this rot is to also be a part of the financial shareholders that they answer to. The recent Star Wars debacle lopping off the top of EA's share price was an excellent example that EA would've gotten away with it, hadn't they fucked with one of the most-loved properties of an entertainment leviathan. Speaking of stock prices, go take a look at most of the major publishers last year - a majority of them did very well, despite the stinkers.What's more is that investors are taking notice of the pliable nature of consumers in the sector and are beginning to construct ETF's dedicated to video games, [URL="https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GAMR/chart?p=GAMR#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%3D%3D"]such as this one, launched in 2016.
[/URL]
I'm happy that the outrage machine exists and I'm happy Jim made this point.[/QUOTE]
you do realize that ea's stock is back to what it was?
hahaha holy fuck
[t]https://i.imgur.com/GteUcec.png[/t]
complaining that people think badly of EA
gosh wonder if it has any thing to do with selling a casino to kids
[QUOTE=J!NX;53091940]hahaha holy fuck
[t]https://i.imgur.com/GteUcec.png[/t]
complaining that people think badly of EA
gosh wonder if it has any thing to do with selling a casino to kids[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/04/09/ea-voted-worst-company-in-america-again/#7549e23a7aeb"]Or that they were voted the worst consumerist company in USA[/URL]
Several times.
[QUOTE=themooselord;53091926]you do realize that ea's stock is back to what it was?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=snookypookums;53091639]The recent Star Wars debacle lopping off the top of EA's share price was an excellent example that EA would've gotten away with it, hadn't they fucked with one of the most-loved properties of an entertainment leviathan. [B]Speaking of stock prices, go take a look at most of the major publishers last year - a majority of them did very well, despite the stinkers.[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=megafat;53091925]"Games are expensive to make"
They already cost significantly more than a movie ticket at $60USD + DLC/Season Pass + optional Limited Edition[/QUOTE]
Even throwaway Adam Sandler films like Jack & Jill cost upwards to $79 million to produce and market, literally on the hair's breadth of the alleged story of the $80 million budget spent in excess perfectionism that Konami got mad at Hideo Kojima over on Metal Gear Solid V.
Both made their money back in the first week and then some.
[QUOTE=Dom Pyroshark;53091961][URL="https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/04/09/ea-voted-worst-company-in-america-again/#7549e23a7aeb"]Or that they were voted the worst consumerist company in USA[/URL]
Several times.[/QUOTE]
No matter how lowly you think of EA, it's probably never a good point to bring this thing up even as a joke as it just makes you look ridiculous.
It's an online poll, that instantly skews the audience that will actually vote on it. It was also realtively easy to bandwagon and manipulate the results with organised raiding. Despite how shitty a fair few EA business practices are there are companies in that poll that actively contributed to the '08 financial crsis, objectively worse companies by a wide fucking margin.
EA winning "awards" for their shittiness is inherently meaningless as it's far too easy for a bunch of nerds online to fuck the nomination processes up. Get mad at EA for the right reasons and take meaningful actions, these polls don't do dick to disuade them or their customer base.
[QUOTE=Dom Pyroshark;53091961][URL="https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/04/09/ea-voted-worst-company-in-america-again/#7549e23a7aeb"]Or that they were voted the worst consumerist company in USA[/URL]
Several times.[/QUOTE]
Which was bullshit because there are companies in there whose actions have waaaaaaay more impact than EA ever will.
But you know, can't mess with my vidya.
[QUOTE=RikohZX;53092117]Even throwaway Adam Sandler films like Jack & Jill cost upwards to $79 million to produce and market, literally on the hair's breadth of the alleged story of the $80 million budget spent in excess perfectionism that Konami got mad at Hideo Kojima over on Metal Gear Solid V.
Both made their money back in the first week and then some.[/QUOTE]
There is one major difference between a movie, book or album and a video game; the expectation of continued support. A book, a move or an album are done once they get mastered and released. That's it. Any money made past the initial investment and marketing is pure profit. A lot of games have supporting systems that need maintaining which means paying for servers, personnel and third party services.
It's not entirely fair to compare the cost of producing a film to a game as films are one and done deals whereas a lot of modern games have a lot of extra shit to support.
I don't buy from big publishers anymore because of these scummy practices and because of their stupid fucking DRM filled programs shitting up my computer every time I want to play their games.
[QUOTE=Wormy;53092195]I wonder how far your head has to be up your own buttocks as a game developer to not realize where all the hate is coming from. And I wonder how much further it has to go up for someone trying to defend their shitty business practices.[/QUOTE]
I think what frustrates me personally is that I actively praise devs as I imagine many people do as well, even when absolutely bashing a company. I do it, and I see many other people do it as well.
its like... dude, they aren't talking about YOU, the DEV.
I live with two gamers who don't care about this at all, they keep buying the next Star Wars or Need for Speed as long as it looks amazing. It's almost like the graphics is only used to lure players into these games.
[QUOTE=Marton;53092365]I live with two gamers who don't care about this at all, they keep buying the next Star Wars or Need for Speed as long as it looks amazing. It's almost like the graphics is only used to lure players into these games.[/QUOTE]
My brother always buys the digital deluxe editions of games if I'm not around to tell him that it's really not worth the extra €10 for a weapon skin or whatever dumb bullshit they include.
[QUOTE=RikohZX;53092117]Even throwaway Adam Sandler films like Jack & Jill cost upwards to $79 million to produce and market, literally on the hair's breadth of the alleged story of the $80 million budget spent in excess perfectionism that Konami got mad at Hideo Kojima over on Metal Gear Solid V.[/QUOTE]
Eh, your argument is sound, but Jack & Jill (or any modern Adam Sandler film, really) is a pretty bad example to use. Red Letter Media's two part review of Jack and Jill goes into more detail on this, but the theory goes that Adam Sandler is basically running a money laundering scheme - wherein he gets lots of his Hollywood friends to guest star in his movies in exchange for massive paychecks, thus inflating the budget far more than it should be for such cheaply shot films. And he finances all of that through shameless product placement throughout the films, on a lever that surpasses even some big budget blockbusters.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;53092417]My brother always buys the digital deluxe editions of games if I'm not around to tell him that it's really not worth the extra €10 for a weapon skin or whatever dumb bullshit they include.[/QUOTE]
My roommate payed over 20$ extra for the deluxe edition of Battlefront 2, which only unlocks a few in-game items as "bonuses".
[QUOTE=Wormy;53092195]I wonder how far your head has to be up your own buttocks as a game developer to not realize where all the hate is coming from. And I wonder how much further it has to go up for someone trying to defend their shitty business practices.[/QUOTE]
Total Insulation is the norm for AAA.
Literally.
Factually.
They are told not to peruse anything daily and as a matter of course, and that any criticism of their product is unfounded personally directed vitriol.
Bioware has gotten to the point where they cherrypick their con audiences so no one is emotionally hurt. Under millenial marketing, criticism is an attack, and there are no other reasons for it occur, because the game [i]you[/i] made is literally above it.
[editline]29th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;53092506]Eh, your argument is sound, but Jack & Jill (or any modern Adam Sandler film, really) is a pretty bad example to use. Red Letter Media's two part review of Jack and Jill goes into more detail on this, but the theory goes that Adam Sandler is basically running a money laundering scheme - wherein he gets lots of his Hollywood friends to guest star in his movies in exchange for massive paychecks, thus inflating the budget far more than it should be for such cheaply shot films. And he finances all of that through shameless product placement throughout the films, on a lever that surpasses even some big budget blockbusters.[/QUOTE]
EA and UbiSoft do the same in a wider and more disseminated degree.
[QUOTE=J!NX;53092209]I think what frustrates me personally is that I actively praise devs as I imagine many people do as well, even when absolutely bashing a company. I do it, and I see many other people do it as well.
its like... dude, they aren't talking about YOU, the DEV.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty stupid too, it's such a nuanced thing. I can still appreciate the level of work and craftsmanship that goes into a lot of these games, BF2 is a genuinely good looking game IMO, but I can also the company who developed it is shitty. Same thing with like artist and art separation, sure some artists or writers or whatever are total cocks, but that doesn't preclude you from liking things within their creative works.
I just think the talents of the programmers, designers, artists, writers and even directors are all going to waste, when the intrusive money men come in and say you must focus on getting a hold of all of the money.
It's all a damn shame, that after years of pushing the boundries to make the world's most gorgeous and arguably the most immersive game worlds i've seen to date.
All of that work goes to waste trying to send out AI bots to scan and manipulate the minds of people and turn them into cash tanks.
Of course there's a lot of things to be angry about, to be frustrated about.. But that's all because a favorite
hobby of mine is turning towards an addiction whose conditions becoming worse by the day, and I want to see it kick that addiction.
[QUOTE=doomkiwi;53092156]I don't buy from big publishers anymore because of these scummy practices and because of their stupid fucking DRM filled programs shitting up my computer every time I want to play their games.[/QUOTE]
There is hope. I told my friend about the shit EA and Acivision is doing with their games. He still bought Battlefront II because he REALLY wanted to try the game out. He returned it after a week with a refund after beating the campaign and only spending a bit on multiplayer. The story was too short and bad while multiplayer was too unfair with people getting the best guns that even tactics couldn't work. He told me he never touched the loot boxes.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;53092597]It's pretty stupid too, it's such a nuanced thing. I can still appreciate the level of work and craftsmanship that goes into a lot of these games, BF2 is a genuinely good looking game IMO, but I can also the company who developed it is shitty. Same thing with like artist and art separation, sure some artists or writers or whatever are total cocks, but that doesn't preclude you from liking things within their creative works.[/QUOTE]
Assassins Creed is the coolest game series out there made by devs that seem to really love what they do, ruined by a terrible company that doesn't care about games at all
GTA5 was one of the biggest modern games we've had in this decade and the studio that made it is owned by one of the biggest douchebag publishers in the industry
Battlefront 2 is the quintessential example of an amazing looking star wars game by a studio that knows what it was doing... turned into a rushed turd casino by a publisher that only wanted to get fast cast
When Halo came out, it changed gaming as a whole [I]forever[/I], and in an incredible and wholesome way. But the people behind that were driven away after their work was thrown out by the awful bullshit that happened while Destiny 1/2 was being made.
I genuinely believe these devs care about what they're doing and it sucks because these games are being ruined
[QUOTE=J!NX;53092209]I think what frustrates me personally is that I actively praise devs as I imagine many people do as well, even when absolutely bashing a company. I do it, and I see many other people do it as well.
its like... dude, they aren't talking about YOU, the DEV.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, but it can be hard to make that distinction as a developer being attacked. I think it's starting to become increasingly important to make that distinction clear when you're actually complaining, in certain contexts.
So i did some quick and dirty research. If [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop]this[/url] is to be believed, GTA 5 is possibly the most expensive video game made, at ~$265 million USD. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carter_(film)]John Carter[/url] cost $250–306.6 million, not including advertising, and was considered a giant flop.
A movie ticked costs ~$15USD, and a blu-ray of the of movie would possibly cost the same. And is someone loved the movie so much in the cinemas, they'd buy some, making a possible ~$30. The movie made $284.1 million in cinemas, and probably a bit of money on physical and digital media.
GTA 5 cost $60USD at launch for the PS3/360, and the same for PS4/XBONE/PC. The game also comes with GTA Online, which has microtransactions/DLC. We know that quite a few people bought at least 2 copies of the game, plus bought a bunch of microtransactions. GTA 5 made US$800 million on initial release on 11.21 million copies. It broke seven Guinness World Record, including best-selling video game in 24 hours, highest grossing video game in 24 hours, fastest entertainment property to gross US$1 billion, fastest video game to gross US$1 billion, highest revenue generated by an entertainment product in 24 hours. As of November 2017, the game has shipped over 85 million copies across all platforms.
By comparison, Watch_Dogs was the biggest new IP for Ubisoft, selling 10 million copies, Destiny shipped US$500 million to retail stores and first-parties worldwide, and [url=http://www.pcgamer.com/ea-tells-investors-turning-off-battlefront-2s-microtransactions-will-not-affect-earnings/]turning off microtransactions in Battlefront will apparently not affect earnings[/url]. Resident Evil and Tomb Raider can sell millions of copies and still be considered a "disappointment".
So no, "games are expensive to make" is not a valid argument because game companies are making a fuck ton of money.
[QUOTE=J!NX;53093101]I genuinely believe these devs care about what they're doing and it sucks because these games are being ruined[/QUOTE]
And I can sympathize with them. It must be awful to put that much work, effort and care into a product, only to watch it get cut down into a shell of its former self by focus testing and shareholder appeasement.
The big problem is executives and investors expecting too much regardless of how logical their expectations should be, so shit like Dead Space 3 happens where they messily put their hands into the game to make it as mainstream and money-grubbing as possible and expect it to sell better than the first two games combined. Everyone wants their cake and to eat it while having a second heaping of dessert.
[QUOTE=megafat;53095436]
By comparison, Watch_Dogs was the biggest new IP for Ubisoft, selling 10 million copies, Destiny shipped US$500 million to retail stores and first-parties worldwide[/QUOTE]
the division made more (it's the best selling new IP)
[QUOTE]The Division - $330 million (First week)[/QUOTE]
sales not shipped
[QUOTE=doomkiwi;53092156]I don't buy from big publishers anymore because of these scummy practices and because of their stupid fucking DRM filled programs shitting up my computer every time I want to play their games.[/QUOTE]
It's ok. They just want you to play their game so it fills their statistics and so that you can be manipulated to spending even more money.
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