[url]http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177452[/url]
[quote] The IDF has identified one of the passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara , which navy commandos commandeered earlier this week, as the ringleader of a group of mercenaries who were recruited from a city in northwest Turkey, according to new details from the military’s ongoing investigation of the Gaza flotilla.
The IDF identified a group of about 50 men – of the 700 on board – who were well-trained and were stationed throughout the ship, mostly on the upper deck, where they laid an ambush for the IDF soldiers who rappelled onto the deck from helicopters.
The members of this violent group were not carrying identity cards or passports. Instead, each of them had an envelope in his pocket with about $10,000 in cash. The defense establishment suspects the funding for the mercenaries may have come from elements within the Turkish government.
According to sources within the defense establishment, one member of the group, who appears to have been the ringleader, traveled to the city of Bursa in northwest Turkey and allegedly recruited mercenaries for the flotilla there.
In videos from the Marmara released this week by the IDF, this group of men can be seen preparing to confront IDF commandos. The videos, taken by the ship’s security cameras, show the group of activists brandishing metal bars, slingshots, and other assorted weaponry.
The group was split up into smaller squads that were distributed throughout the deck and communicated with one another with handheld communication devices. The men wore bulletproof vests and gas masks.
One video clearly shows a member of the group throwing a stun grenade onto the IDF commando vessel that pulled up alongside the Marmara. Another video shows how groups of at least four or five men swarmed each commando that landed on the top deck, beating them with metal bars, and in one case throwing a soldier off the third deck.
Soldiers testified that in at least two instances their sidearms were taken from them, as were their helmets and vests. Two soldiers jumped off the ship into the water to save themselves from being lynched.
On Wednesday, Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilna’i told a Knesset hearing that all nine men killed on the Marmara were “involved in the fighting.”
“There were no innocents among the dead,” Vilna’i said.
Meanwhile, Palestinian Media Watch reported Thursday that three of the four Turks killed on ship sought a martyr’s death.
PMW quoted from the official Palestinian Authority daily Al-Hayat al-Jadida:
“Three of the four Turks killed in the Israeli attack on the ‘Freedom Flotilla’ bound for the Gaza Strip wanted to die as martyrs, said their relatives and friends. The wife of one of them, Ali Haydar Bengi, told the Vatan daily: “He used to help the poor and the oppressed. For years, he wanted to go to Palestine. And he constantly prayed to Allah to grant him shahada (martyrdom).
“Ali worked at telephone repair shop in Diyarbakir, the largest city in southeastern Turkey. Sabir Ceylan, a friend of Ali, told the Milliyet newspaper: ‘Before embarking on this journey [to Gaza], he said he desired to become a martyr. He had a strong desire to die as a martyr.’
“Another Turkish victim was Ali Ekber Yaratilmis, a 55-year old pensioner. He was a father of five who lived in Ankara. Ali volunteered for the Turkish Aid and Human Rights Organization [IHH], which transfers aid to Gaza. A friend, Mehmet Faruk Cevher, told the Sabah daily that [Ali] ‘devoted his life to charity work, that’s why he went to Gaza. He always wanted to become a martyr.’
“The third victim was Ibrahim Bilgen, a 61-year old pensioner and father of six sons. He was a supporter of the Felicity Party, an Islamic movement in the southeastern city of Siirt, Anatolia news agency reported. His brother-in-law, Nuri Mergen, told the agency: He was an exemplary man and a truly good man. That’s why he was truly worthy of shahada (martyrdom). Allah granted him the death that he wished for.’”
Palestinian Media Watch reported in the last two days that participants on board were chanting Islamic battle cries and talking about their coming martyrdom during the days before the confrontation.[/quote]
Story seems plausible, a better source would be good though.
Jerusalem Post, lol very fair news source.
[IMG]http://ssjlogan.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/mercenaries_2___.jpg[/IMG]
these guys ??
And why would I believe this?
[QUOTE=Hypothermic;22374789]Jerusalem Post, lol very fair news source.[/QUOTE]
Lol indeed.
Even if they were mercenaries, it's obvious that their goal was to SUBDUE the Israeli Commandos, not kill them. That would be completely reasonable in my opinion.
The flotilla hired them as protection. That's why they had bullet proof vests and gas masks, so they could protect the passengers and incapacitate the soldiers. Note that it says STUN grenade, not FRAG grenade.
It is obvious they were using non-leathal tactics. Israel on the other hand, used LIVE AMMO to take down the passengers.
[QUOTE=Fahrenheit;22374891]Even if they were mercenaries, it's obvious that their goal was to SUBDUE the Israeli Commandos, not kill them. That would be completely reasonable in my opinion.
The flotilla hired them as protection. That's why they had bullet proof vests and gas masks, so they could protect the passengers and incapacitate the soldiers. Note that it says STUN grenade, not FRAG grenade.
It is obvious they were using non-leathal tactics. Israel on the other hand, used LIVE AMMO to take down the passengers.[/QUOTE]
Pipes!
doesn't justify israel's action
news source unreliable
try again israel
Actually the Jerusalem post is pretty reliable, it's like Haaretz, and it's more left-wing than other Israeli news sources.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;22374919]Pipes![/QUOTE]
well, yeah
pipes and not knives
he kind of has a point
[QUOTE=Thom12255;22374919]Pipes![/QUOTE]
A pipe, while potentially lethal, is just as good for knocking out your opponent. Really, how many subtle, non-lethal weapons exist out there? A police baton for example, is really just a glorified pipe.
Personally, I'd consider a pipe to be non-lethal, especially against Commandos in full gear.
It'll hurt like a bitch, sure, but unless it's a blow to the head it's not really likely to kill unless the person wielding it wants to kill.
[img]http://thewhittles.name/webpage/media/Player/Demo.jpg[/img]
"Aye! And we would've been sucessful if the bloody Jews hadn't come from the sky!"
Oh yeah Israel is doing the investigation. I won't believe anything they say. They're probably trying to pin it all on Turkey so when the Turkish ships meet the Israeli ships the world will side with Israel.
[QUOTE=Fahrenheit;22374891]Israel on the other hand, used LIVE AMMO to take down the passengers.[/QUOTE]
Only when they actually were attacked.
They even asked to use lethal force, rather than open fire immediately when attacked. What is it with you people, and why can't you get over your hatred just long enough to actually analyze what happened?
[QUOTE=Jenkem;22375111]Only when they actually were attacked.
They even asked to use lethal force, rather than open fire immediately when attacked. What is it with you people, and why can't you get over your hatred just long enough to actually analyze what happened?[/QUOTE]
I would
unfortunately they won't release the footage for me to analyze.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;22375111]Only when they actually were attacked.
They even asked to use lethal force, rather than open fire immediately when attacked. What is it with you people, and [B]why can't you get over your hatred[/B] just long enough to actually analyze what happened?[/QUOTE]
accusing us of being anti-semites
jesus you're retarded
I think by hatred he meant hatred towards Israel.
Watch out! Skilled Mercenaries with broom handles!
[QUOTE=Jenkem;22375111]Only when they actually were attacked.
They even asked to use lethal force, rather than open fire immediately when attacked. What is it with you people, and why can't you get over your hatred just long enough to actually analyze what happened?[/QUOTE]
Of course they were going to be attacked. They committed a potentially illegal operation by boarding that ship. (I say potentially because it's still disputed.)
It does not give the excuse to use live ammo. If I got into a fist fight with someone, or even a fight with small melee weapons like bats or pipes, I wouldn't just wip out a gun and shoot, I'd fight fire with fire.
It's not like they weren't looking for a fight, the Israelis fully expected one, otherwise they wouldn't have used fucking Commandos. Why not just literally "block" the ship for getting past or disable it's engines? You can then just starve out the people on board until they are willing to negotiate.
Fiercely trained mercenaries with no weapons and the only people who got killed were ordinary people.
Yeah, something doesn't add up here.
Throwing "apologist bullshit" on this one.
[QUOTE=TheSpy;22374814][IMG]http://ssjlogan.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/mercenaries_2___.jpg[/IMG]
these guys ??[/QUOTE]
Guy on the right reminds me of:
[img]http://roguemag.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/james-hetfield.jpg[/img]
[editline]03:12PM[/editline]
and
[img]http://forum.i3d.net/attachments/left-4-dead-l4d/943175920d1245553759-l4d-skin-francis-hells-angel-hells-1.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Fahrenheit;22375305]Of course they were going to be attacked. They committed a potentially illegal operation by boarding that ship. (I say potentially because it's still disputed.)
It does not give the excuse to use live ammo. If I got into a fist fight with someone, or even a fight with small melee weapons like bats or pipes, I wouldn't just wip out a gun and shoot, I'd fight fire with fire.
It's not like they weren't looking for a fight, the Israelis fully expected one, otherwise they wouldn't have used fucking Commandos. Why not just literally "block" the ship for getting past or disable it's engines? You can then just starve out the people on board until they are willing to negotiate.[/QUOTE]
So you getting your face bashed in with a pipe and a horde of people around you and you wouldn't use a gun even if you just shot at their limbs?
[QUOTE=Thom12255;22375722]So you getting your face bashed in with a pipe and a horde of people around you and you wouldn't use a gun even if you just shot at their limbs?[/QUOTE]
Israel's "elite" IDF have dealt with far worse in the past with out causing such an issue.
They planned it very, very poorly. They should have not got themselves in such a position in the first place. Even people within the Israeli state admit as much that this could have been handled much better, as they have not had this issue in the past with previous attempts to break the blockade.
[QUOTE=MercZ;22375759]Israel's "elite" IDF have dealt with far worse in the past with out causing such an issue.
They planned it very, very poorly. They should have not got themselves in such a position in the first place. Even people within the Israeli state admit as much that this could have been handled much better, as they have not had this issue in the past with previous attempts to break the blockade.[/QUOTE]
I agree, the IDF messed up in this and if they had thought it out maybe this wouldn't be such a PR mess.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;22375722]So you getting your face bashed in with a pipe and a horde of people around you and you wouldn't use a gun even if you just shot at their limbs?[/QUOTE]
"Oh shit guys a mob has gathered under our helicopter with construction tools and are shouting at us okay gogogo!"
[QUOTE=Fahrenheit;22375305]Of course they were going to be attacked. They committed a potentially illegal operation by boarding that ship. (I say potentially because it's still disputed.)
It does not give the excuse to use live ammo. If I got into a fist fight with someone, or even a fight with small melee weapons like bats or pipes, I wouldn't just wip out a gun and shoot, I'd fight fire with fire.
It's not like they weren't looking for a fight, the Israelis fully expected one, otherwise they wouldn't have used fucking Commandos. Why not just literally "block" the ship for getting past or disable it's engines? You can then just starve out the people on board until they are willing to negotiate.[/QUOTE]
If you were being beaten to DEATH by fists or a bat, I'm pretty sure you'd use a gun if available. Everyone knows the old saying "you never bring a knife to a knife fight"
What was there to negotiate? The ship had already broken the flotilla, thus it was within their right to go on board the ship. Even if it was an illegal action, who the fuck would enforce it? The UN? The only reason why the UN has ANY sort of power is because of the USA and partially Russia and China. The whole operation would have been quick and non-lethal if the people on board were truly peaceful activists. By even having bulletproof vests and brandishing weapons as well as attacking the commandos first it was anything but.
"They have the right to defend themselves, they were in international waters BLAH BLAH BLAH" Quite frankly thats bullshit, take a lesson from Gandhi and non-violent protest. If they had stated that they were anything but non-violent it would be justifiable.
Israel knows they could have handled it better. But seriously, the commandos should be commended for holding their fire until ordered otherwise.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;22375828]If you were being beaten to DEATH by fists or a bat, I'm pretty sure you'd use a gun if available. Everyone knows the old saying "you never bring a knife to a knife fight"[/QUOTE]
How bout you don't go to the knife fight at all? They could have just done that. And in actuality yes, you would bring a knife into a knife fight.
[editline]08:24PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=fskman;22375886]Israel knows they could have handled it better. But seriously, the commandos should be commended for holding their fire until ordered otherwise.[/QUOTE]
So if someone messes with me, I should be praised for not killing them?
[QUOTE=Jund;22375901]How bout you don't go to the knife fight at all? They could have just done that. And in actuality yes, you would bring a knife into a knife fight.[/QUOTE]
Yes, why didn't the Flotilla avoid this all together by heeding Israeli warnings and docking at the Israeli port for the aid to be taken on land to Gaza.
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