First thought, makes me really hate that all "leftists" are now a part of the regressive left (cue comparision of all rights being alt right etc)
Rubin is an ok guy, so this was a good video Tudd. I think the big part about the left vs liberals is that theres a lot of divide in both parts. Liberals includes a lot of classical liberals, while also including the cowardly fools in the DNC who approve things like Trumps cabinent without a thought.
The leftists include the regressive left and also many people who are socially liberal who agree with socialist ideals.
There's a lot of big divides in the grand whole group of the "left" as you move down the slider that needs to face divides just as the new right has with the old conservatives. As he asks at the end, I'm a leftist because it alligns with what I believe in, socially and systematically more so than anything the right offers. Just waiting on a good divide to occur to make that mean more.
[editline]25th January 2017[/editline]
I think this election showed a great divide in both worlds. You have the young liberals fighting for more left leaning people like Bernie while the old ones are stuck with centre-left corporate warhawks like Hillary. Then you have leftists who founds more of a home in Bernie, but some who could also want even more left offerings in a platform that the Green Party does not provide either
[QUOTE=KillRay;51727446]First thought, makes me really hate that all "leftists" are now a part of the regressive left (cue comparision of all rights being alt right etc)
Rubin is an ok guy, so this was a good video Tudd. I think the big part about the left vs liberals is that theres a lot of divide in both parts. Liberals includes a lot of classical liberals, while also including the cowardly fools in the DNC who approve things like Trumps cabinent without a thought.
The leftists include the regressive left and also many people who are socially liberal who agree with socialist ideals.
There's a lot of big divides in the grand whole group of the "left" as you move down the slider that needs to face divides just as the new right has with the old conservatives. As he asks at the end, I'm a leftist because it alligns with what I believe in, socially and systematically more so than anything the right offers. Just waiting on a good divide to occur to make that mean more.
[/QUOTE]
Yah, I know I post stuff that is like nails on chalkboard on here *cough* Naked Ape *cough* but I thought this video was a really well thought out approach talking about the regressive left.
The fact he thinks the regressive left is a bigger threat to freedom of speech and the western world and not Trump is fucking sad.
Huh, posted this yesterday
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51719449]Honestly during the presidential campaign up until now I feel the exact opposite. Ivory tower elitism definitely exists on the left but I find them consistently more introspective and self-critical than the right, particularly when it came to the presidential race.[/QUOTE]
As for the video itself yeah he isn't saying much else new. The regressive left exists and it's a problem that should be excised but the right has lived with it's social policy tumor for decades now and they have control of all three branches of government right now. Where Rubin loses me is trying to coax people into conservatism. Sorry, the Democrats as politicians can be corrupt scumbags and individual leftists can be regressive, illiberal morons but neither is going to drive me into the open arms of trickle down economics and religious pandering.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51727510]
I didnt want to mention that he made a video with Dennis Prager[/QUOTE]
I know you said a bunch of other things, but are you really going to use guilt by association now? His job is to interview people.
I'm genuinely getting tired of this garbage narrative of the left reigning destruction on the freedom of the world being pushed on me.
I personally think that both sides of the coin have a lot of mending to do in the eyes of the moderates. The reactionary right and regressive left leaves a huge, bitter taste in my mouth. They're both comprised of extremists or fundamentalists that are so staunchly stubborn in their position, that they refuse to even debate or deconstruct their opponents' arguments. It's causing the political and social climates in the United States (and Europe as well) to be superbly toxic.
For instance, the refugee crisis. It's a rational thought that the refugee crisis was handled poorly; countries that brought in refugees weren't accustomed to the huge load of em'. But as you veer off to the extremes of both sides, you start to realize that they begin to have much more irrationality in opinion and argumentation. The far right begins to straiten their worldviews with a dabble of Islamophobia, and paint Muslims as some kind of barbaric savages (while also drawing the same conclusion with Islam as a whole), while the radical left contend that the handling of refugees are perfectly fine, and that those who oppose them are vehemently accused of racism or Islamophobia unjustly.
As time goes on, the climates will simmer down. But I also think that conservatism is beginning to wither as a social and political institution in this day and age. Globalism and the inter-connectivity of the world as we know it is becoming much more apparent, and it's also beginning to show in our youth. True liberalism is on the rise, and I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.
[QUOTE=Rexxasaurus;51727524]I'm genuinely getting tired of this garbage narrative of the left reigning destruction on the freedom of the world being pushed on me.[/QUOTE]
I'm getting tired of the narrative that the left encompasses exclusively social justice. I think healthcare should be a right and believe progressive tax rates are simultaneously fair and efficient means of generating revenue. Don't lump me in with the safe space crowd. Talk to me like an adult.
[QUOTE=Omilinon;51727526]I personally think that both sides of the coin have a lot of mending to do in the eyes of the moderates. The reactionary right and regressive left leaves a huge, bitter taste in my mouth. They're both comprised of extremists or fundamentalists that are so staunchly stubborn in their position, that they refuse to even debate or deconstruct their opponents' arguments. It's causing the political and social climates in the United States (and Europe as well) to be superbly toxic.
For instance, the refugee crisis. It's a rational thought that the refugee crisis was handled poorly; countries that brought in refugees weren't accustomed to the huge load of em'. But as you veer off to the extremes of both sides, you start to realize that they begin to have much more irrationality in opinion and argumentation. The far right begins to straiten their worldviews with a dabble of Islamophobia, and paint Muslims as some kind of barbaric savages (while also drawing the same conclusion with Islam as a whole), while the radical left contend that the handling of refugees are perfectly fine, and that those who oppose them are vehemently accused of racism or Islamophobia unjustly.
As time goes on, the climates will simmer down. But I also think that conservatism is beginning to wither as a social and political institution in this day and age. Globalism and the inter-connectivity of the world as we know it is becoming much more apparent, and it's also beginning to show in our youth. True liberalism is on the rise, and I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.[/QUOTE]
I have an unifying theory known as hemlock theory. It basically state fanatics (delusional insane violent idiots) kill off good people and thus destroy any idea that good for people push ideas that make people crazy is the reason for all the woe in the world.
So the only ideas exist afte r this historic process are toxic ones except hemlock theory which is designed to counter this toxic erasure and shut violent idiots up according to their nature.
[QUOTE=Omilinon;51727526]
As time goes on, the climates will simmer down. But I also think that conservatism is beginning to wither as a social and political institution in this day and age. Globalism and the inter-connectivity of the world as we know it is becoming much more apparent, and it's also beginning to show in our youth. True liberalism is on the rise, and I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid this is not the case, the right is feeling nations of the world are losing sovereignty over Globalism. In fact, the EU is going to collapse without it giving back control over the countries in it. Le Pen is in fact in the lead right now in France. I'm afraid a uni-polar world is not going to happen.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51727530]I'm getting tired of the narrative that the left encompasses exclusively social justice. I think healthcare should be a right and believe progressive tax rates are simultaneously fair and efficient means of generating revenue. Don't lump me in with the safe space crowd. Talk to me like an adult.[/QUOTE]
YES! I'm particularly sick of the "snowflake" comments.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51727572]That might be his job but he isnt picking random people off the streets.
But Prager isnt really as much as hated as I do outside I guess. To me it is like he interviewed Richard Spencer or something, but that is just my perception, I find the 2 as bad.[/QUOTE]
Dennis Prager is equal to Richard Spencer in your mind.
O......k.... lol.
[QUOTE=Rexxasaurus;51727524]I'm genuinely getting tired of this garbage narrative of the left reigning destruction on the freedom of the world being pushed on me.[/QUOTE]
It feels like people have to constantly come into these threads to defend 'the left' and remind the imbeciles who make these videos of shit they should already know
You can't generalize an entire group
I don't think I'm saying something crazy when I say most leftists are not regressive
moderates of both spectrums are much, much more numerous than the extremes of both spectrums
I hear more Trump apologists raving about these "issues" than anyone else. Conservatives control essentially the entire US government. This is nothing more than a sideshow for conservatives to abuse while they dismantle social programs. Rubin discredited himself when he allowed Alex Epstein to use his show as a platform to spread antiscience bullshit without challenging him.
You are only allowed to complain about the regressive left if you didn't vote for Trump
[QUOTE=CommunistCookie;51727772]I hear more Trump apologists raving about these "issues" than anyone else. Conservatives control essentially the entire US government. This is nothing more than a sideshow for conservatives to abuse while they dismantle social programs. Rubin discredited himself when he allowed Alex Epstein to use his show as a platform to spread antiscience bullshit without challenging him.[/QUOTE]
That's what he does. He interviews people and lets them talk. The point isn't to debate them, but to allow a lot of different opinions to be heard.
Meaningless title for a meaningless video from a person who has no idea what they're even talking about.
Liberal and left are different terms with different meanings that answer entirely different sets of political questions. The actual left, covering the spectrum from traditional Marxists to anarchists (in all of anarchism's various flavors) to left communists (Luxemburg, Pannekoek) never really were liberal and never made any pretense towards being liberal. Complaining about the 'regressive left' (regressive, by the way, is not a political term unless used in the context of "regressive taxation") is a way for centrists and right wingers to act like they're better than everyone else by abusing and contorting the terms of political debate.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51727578]Dennis Prager is equal to Richard Spencer in your mind.
O......k.... lol.[/QUOTE]
I mean this is the guy who said Ellison shouldn't be able to be sworn in with a Qur'an because it was "unprecedented" even though you've been able to do that in court for forever. He also has a history of racism towards Arabs.
He's not a literal nazi like Spencer but he sure is a jackass. In a way the comparison is apt though. Spencer and Prager (through Prager University) both preach a very biased and overwhelmingly wrong view of the world.
[QUOTE=Super Muffin;51728124]I mean this is the guy who said Ellison shouldn't be able to be sworn in with a Qur'an because it was "unprecedented" even though you've been able to do that in court for forever. He also has a history of racism towards Arabs.
He's not a literal nazi like Spencer but he sure is a jackass. In a way the comparison is apt though. Spencer and Prager (through Prager University) both preach a very biased and overwhelmingly wrong view of the world.[/QUOTE]
Can you give an example of racism towards Arabs from Prager?
[QUOTE=sgman91;51727989]That's what he does. He interviews people and lets them talk. The point isn't to debate them, but to allow a lot of different opinions to be heard.[/QUOTE]
Climate change denial isn't a "different opinion". It's a denial of facts. Rubin might as well invite an antivaxxer and a flat-Earther as well so he can give them the ol' smile and nod, all opinions deserve to be heard!
[QUOTE=CommunistCookie;51728219]Climate change denial isn't a "different opinion". It's a denial of facts. Rubin might as well invite an antivaxxer and a flat-Earther as well so he can give them the ol' smile and nod, all opinions deserve to be heard![/QUOTE]
I honestly wouldn't have a problem with him inviting an antivaxxer onto the show. I'm actually not scared of, or opposed to, ideas that I think are wrong being heard.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51728188]Can you give an example of racism towards Arabs from Prager?[/QUOTE]
Here's an op-ed Prager wrote:
[URL="http://articles.latimes.com/1990-10-12/local/me-2027_1_jewish-state"]Israel's Destruction Is Arabs' Only Goal : The existence of a Jewish state, not the absence of a Palestinian one, is the issue. And it's the West's values that are at stake.
[/URL]
Example of its content:
[quote=Link]
The torture chambers of Iraq and Kuwait, and the obliteration of an Arab country, mean nothing to Arabs; it is the existence of a tiny Jewish state in their midst that gives their lives and deaths meaning.
(...)
The Arab world, once a beacon of intellectual and religious thought, is today a caldron of hate and cruelty. It is the Jews' miserable luck (as it was the miserable luck of Lebanese Christians who once led the only free Arab country) to be stranded in this moral desert.
(...)
The cause of the hatred is the mere existence of the Jewish state, a state that embodies Western democratic and humanistic values in the midst of Arabs and Muslims who hate democracy and the West.
[/quote]
It's pretty racist. Dude is a firm believer that all Arabs are literally Hitler biding their time until they can attack Israel.
[QUOTE=Omilinon;51727526]I personally think that both sides of the coin have a lot of mending to do in the eyes of the moderates. The reactionary right and regressive left leaves a huge, bitter taste in my mouth. They're both comprised of extremists or fundamentalists that are so staunchly stubborn in their position, that they refuse to even debate or deconstruct their opponents' arguments. It's causing the political and social climates in the United States (and Europe as well) to be superbly toxic.
For instance, the refugee crisis. It's a rational thought that the refugee crisis was handled poorly; countries that brought in refugees weren't accustomed to the huge load of em'. But as you veer off to the extremes of both sides, you start to realize that they begin to have much more irrationality in opinion and argumentation. The far right begins to straiten their worldviews with a dabble of Islamophobia, and paint Muslims as some kind of barbaric savages (while also drawing the same conclusion with Islam as a whole), while the radical left contend that the handling of refugees are perfectly fine, and that those who oppose them are vehemently accused of racism or Islamophobia unjustly.
As time goes on, the climates will simmer down. But I also think that conservatism is beginning to wither as a social and political institution in this day and age. Globalism and the inter-connectivity of the world as we know it is becoming much more apparent, and it's also beginning to show in our youth. True liberalism is on the rise, and I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how you can be on this forum for five years and see people constantly debate each other and always fail to convince each other and conclude that the problem is that people don't debate about their beliefs enough. you can only believe that you can use logic to change people's beliefs if you think that people's beliefs come from logic in the first place, which they don't. People's beliefs come from their values, their experiences, and the narratives they internalize. You can use logic to sort of fiddle around at the edges of people's belief systems but 99% of the time, people are impenetrable to debate. [URL="http://thepoliticalinformer.com/the-backfire-effect/"]We know it to be the case[/URL] that arguing against people's beliefs only makes their beliefs stronger. If someone believes that all Muslims should be in death camps, there's no logical edifice supporting that belief that you can tear down with your facts and rationality, it's just what they believe because they fundamentally don't recognize the right of people who aren't like them to exist.
[QUOTE=Super Muffin;51728244]Here's an op-ed Prager wrote:
[URL="http://articles.latimes.com/1990-10-12/local/me-2027_1_jewish-state"]Israel's Destruction Is Arabs' Only Goal : The existence of a Jewish state, not the absence of a Palestinian one, is the issue. And it's the West's values that are at stake.
[/URL]
Example of its content:
It's pretty racist. Dude is a firm believer that all Arabs are literally Hitler biding their time until they can attack Israel.[/QUOTE]
How is it racist? Look at the context and arguments being presented. He contrasts that Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Arabs, and the Arab countries of the Middle East couldn't give a single crap, but Israel kills a a few hundred and you hear calls across the Arab world against them? Why? Because Hatred for Israel, and Jews, is a rallying cry across the Middle East. I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise.
Let me put it another way: Do you honestly think he doesn't think a single Arab on the planet doesn't hate Jews? Really? If not, then clearly those statements aren't being applied to every single Arab.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51728228]I honestly wouldn't have a problem with him inviting an antivaxxer onto the show. I'm actually not scared of, or opposed to, ideas that I think are wrong being heard.[/QUOTE]
This isn't about being scared 'ideas i think are wrong' being heard. It's about creating a false equivalency, like you are right now, between [u]lies/falsehoods/untruths/fabrications[/u] and empirically proven facts.
When you present an antivaxxer to the world and you nod them off, you get antivaxxers. When you have antivaxxers, you get more unvaccinated kids which means diminished herd immunity and people dying of easily preventable diseases. Bullshit kills.
[QUOTE=CommunistCookie;51728302]This isn't about being scared 'ideas i think are wrong' being heard. It's about creating a false equivalency, like you are right now, between [U]lies/falsehoods/untruths/fabrications[/U] and empirically proven facts.
When you present an antivaxxer to the world and you nod them off, you get antivaxxers. When you have antivaxxers, you get more unvaccinated kids which means diminished herd immunity and people dying of easily preventable diseases. Bullshit kills.[/QUOTE]
Let the antivaxxer talk, ask some basic questions, and then have a vaccination scientist on and do the same. I'm not equating ideas. I think that the best way to defeat ideas is to let them be heard and then present a stronger opposing position, not pushing people into the shadows.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51728278]How is it racist? Look at the context and arguments being presented. He contrasts that Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Arabs, and the Arab countries of the Middle East couldn't give a single crap, but Israel kills a a few hundred and you hear calls across the Arab world against them? Why? Because Hatred for Israel, and Jews, is a rallying cry across the Middle East. I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise.
Let me put it another way: Do you honestly think he doesn't think a single Arab on the planet doesn't hate Jews? Really? If not, then clearly those statements aren't being applied to every single Arab.[/QUOTE]
Is there a way for him to be racist without thinking that every single Arab hates Jews?
Do you not think theres anything problematic with this sentence: "
The Arab world, once a beacon of intellectual and religious thought, is today a caldron of hate and cruelty" ??
[QUOTE=sgman91;51728308]Let the antivaxxer talk, ask some basic questions, and then have a vaccination scientist on and do the same. I'm not equating ideas. I think that the best way to defeat ideas is to let them be heard and then present a stronger opposing position, not pushing people into the shadows.[/QUOTE]
The kinds of people who fall for that antivaxx horseshit aren't going to be swayed by some egghead quoting statistics at them.
Anti-vaccination as a belief spreads because it taps into people's fundamental distrust of big government, arcane and opaque scientific industries, and having needles stuck in them. They wouldn't listen to any rebuttal by a vaccination scientist because they think that the vaccination scientists are in on the conspiracy to give their kids autism and would tell any lie in the world to keep it going.
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