Why Can't Destiny 2 Run at 60fps on PS4 Pro? - [DigitalFoundry] - General

[video]https://youtu.be/Smn_ZUGK7ZQ[/video]

For those who like to skip parts; he is also expecting Scorpio wont be able to handle it at 60FPS, because it also has a weak CPU.

[I]"As a developer I would bet no-one chooses different frame-rates for multiplayer games ever."[/I] -Shannon Loftis, Microsoft. :why: Version parity can die in a fucking dumpster fire. Also, what is PC gaming?

Wait, so let me get this straight: The PS4 Pro has enough [i]graphical[/i] power to push [i]four[/i] times the pixels in resolution. But it doesn't have enough [i]computational[/i] power to push [i]two[/i] times the pixels in frame rate? The engine itself can handle 60 fps, as demonstrated by the PC side, but what extra computations would they need that would push consoles to not support 60 fps? Are they tying the physics engine (bad idea, see: Skyrim), network traffic (bad idea, see: Quake Champions), AI decisions, or some other non-graphical system (bad idea, see: game design for the past two decades) to frame rate? What am I missing?

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52272374][I]"As a developer I would bet no-one chooses different frame-rates for multiplayer games ever."[/I] -Shannon Loftis, Microsoft. :why: Version parity can die in a fucking dumpster fire. Also, what is PC gaming?[/QUOTE] If we want [U]p[/U]olitically [U]c[/U]orrect gaming the framerates should be equal for all. [QUOTE=biodude94566;52272455]Wait, so let me get this straight: The PS4 Pro has enough [i]graphical[/i] power to push [i]four[/i] times the pixels in resolution. But it doesn't have enough [i]computational[/i] power to push [i]two[/i] times the pixels in frame rate? The engine itself can handle 60 fps, as demonstrated by the PC side, but what extra computations would they need that would push consoles to not support 60 fps? Are they tying the physics engine (bad idea, see: Skyrim), network traffic (bad idea, see: Quake Champions), AI decisions, or some other non-graphical system (bad idea, see: game design for the past two decades) to frame rate? What am I missing?[/QUOTE] The Pro doesn't have the power to push 4 times the pixels, there is barely any game running at 4K without some trick, but never mind that. When you look at the GPUs, Pro's GPU is two times more powerful, and Scorpio is 4 times more powerful than the original console. But, compared to the original PS4 the Pro's CPU is only 30% faster, same with the Xbox One vs Scorpio. The engine can handle high framerate like you said, but the CPUs in consoles simply can't keep up.

[QUOTE=biodude94566;52272455]Wait, so let me get this straight: The PS4 Pro has enough [i]graphical[/i] power to push [i]four[/i] times the pixels in resolution. But it doesn't have enough [i]computational[/i] power to push [i]two[/i] times the pixels in frame rate? The engine itself can handle 60 fps, as demonstrated by the PC side, but what extra computations would they need that would push consoles to not support 60 fps? Are they tying the physics engine (bad idea, see: Skyrim), network traffic (bad idea, see: Quake Champions), AI decisions, or some other non-graphical system (bad idea, see: game design for the past two decades) to frame rate? What am I missing?[/QUOTE] They may not be tying them, but most likely the Jaguar CPUs can't handle them at 16.6ms per frame. It's kind of important to stress how weak Jaguar Cores are, we aren't talking about FX processors here, Jaguar is on the same class of CPU as Intel Atoms (in fact some of the newer Atoms beat it clock for clock).

[QUOTE=biodude94566;52272455]Wait, so let me get this straight: The PS4 Pro has enough [i]graphical[/i] power to push [i]four[/i] times the pixels in resolution. But it doesn't have enough [i]computational[/i] power to push [i]two[/i] times the pixels in frame rate? The engine itself can handle 60 fps, as demonstrated by the PC side, but what extra computations would they need that would push consoles to not support 60 fps? Are they tying the physics engine (bad idea, see: Skyrim), network traffic (bad idea, see: Quake Champions), AI decisions, or some other non-graphical system (bad idea, see: game design for the past two decades) to frame rate? What am I missing?[/QUOTE] It's not that they're tying things to the frame rate, it's simply that the CPU doesn't have enough performance to keep up with what Bungie is trying to accomplish with the game. Things like physics simulation are extremely taxing on CPUs in general, and the pretty much mobile (as in laptop) grade CPU in all the current gen consoles simply doesn't have enough grunt to handle Bungie's engine at a consistent frame rate above 30 FPS while also performing intensive tasks at high resolutions. Optimizations to the engine and lower level APIs can only help so much, especially if there's a deadline looming. Not to mention it's something that a majority of consumers don't really care about. Most care about visuals, which is what Bungie is trying to shoot for on consoles. Yes, the voices crying out for 60 FPS are loud, but they aren't the majority. Most consumers just want the new shiny game and don't care about framerate. All they want is a game that looks good, plays good, and runs without a hitch. 30 FPS isn't ideal, but to be honest, I'd rather have a consistent and stable 30 FPS experience than an experience that tries to shoot for 60 FPS but often falls short. But then again, I'll probably be getting the game on PC, so it's pretty much a case of "not my problem."

Would've personally loved it if Microsoft went with Ryzen Mobile for the Scorpio The current one is like literally a high-end tablet/smartphone processor

God destiny looks pretty at 60fps

PS4 Pro uses all kinds of tricks to scale it to 4K but as a owner of the PS4 Pro it still manages to look pretty damn good. Such a shame its not 60 FPS

[QUOTE=darth-veger;52272735]PS4 Pro uses all kinds of tricks to scale it to 4K but as a owner of the PS4 Pro it still manages to look pretty damn good. Such a shame its not 60 FPS[/QUOTE] Interpolation of image data up to a 4k one can totally be handled by a screen/monitor but its nice if it doesn't have to be. 1920x1080 still looks better scaled up than you might think. We are talking about a jump from 2,000,000 pixels to 8,000,000 and I'm not exactly surprised they have trouble.

[QUOTE=Rahu X;52272641]It's not that they're tying things to the frame rate, it's simply that the CPU doesn't have enough performance to keep up with what Bungie is trying to accomplish with the game. Things like physics simulation are extremely taxing on CPUs in general, and the pretty much mobile (as in laptop) grade CPU in all the current gen consoles simply doesn't have enough grunt to handle Bungie's engine at a consistent frame rate above 30 FPS while also performing intensive tasks at high resolutions. Optimizations to the engine and lower level APIs can only help so much, especially if there's a deadline looming. Not to mention it's something that a majority of consumers don't really care about. Most care about visuals, which is what Bungie is trying to shoot for on consoles. Yes, the voices crying out for 60 FPS are loud, but they aren't the majority. Most consumers just want the new shiny game and don't care about framerate. All they want is a game that looks good, plays good, and runs without a hitch. 30 FPS isn't ideal, but to be honest, I'd rather have a consistent and stable 30 FPS experience than an experience that tries to shoot for 60 FPS but often falls short. But then again, I'll probably be getting the game on PC, so it's pretty much a case of "not my problem."[/QUOTE] They could have just locked 60fps to the competitive PvP mode which doesn't rely on many mobs being present. It's what the 'voices' were asking for and what many other console games have done in the past.

[QUOTE=FlandersNed;52272781]They could have just locked 60fps to the competitive PvP mode which doesn't rely on many mobs being present. It's what the 'voices' were asking for and what many other console games have done in the past.[/QUOTE] Problem is that PSpro players and normal PS4 players will be playing together, PSpro players will have an advantage with 60 frames in PvP.

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52272903]Problem is that PSpro players and normal PS4 players will be playing together, PSpro players will have an advantage with 60 frames in PvP.[/QUOTE] This already happens on PC. If you pay extra for a better machine, why shouldn't you be able to get a smoother experience?

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52272938]This already happens on PC. If you pay extra for a better machine, why shouldn't you be able to get a smoother experience?[/QUOTE] Because PS4 players can't lower their graphical settings to achieve 60 fps, on a PC you can, and on PC you can also choose to gimp yourself with visuals over performance.

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52272961]Because PS4 players can't lower their graphical settings to achieve 60 fps, on a PC you can, and on PC you can also choose to gimp yourself with visuals over performance.[/QUOTE] It's still the Dev's responsibility at the end of the day, denying a better machine the ability to have better framerate (if it CAN manage it) for the sake of "version parity" is a piss-poor excuse. If DICE can manage it with Battlefield 1, there's no reason Bungie couldn't.

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52272987]It's still the Dev's responsibility at the end of the day, denying a better machine the ability to have better framerate (if it CAN manage it) for the sake of "version parity" is a piss-poor excuse. If DICE can manage it with Battlefield 1, there's no reason Bungie couldn't.[/QUOTE] Bungie doesn't want players to have a technical advantage over others, it's a fair decision not to give PSpro players an advantage over PS4, and you shouldn't compare it to the PC because on the PC you have the choice, on consoles you don't.

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52272961]Because PS4 players can't lower their graphical settings to achieve 60 fps, on a PC you can, and on PC you can also choose to gimp yourself with visuals over performance.[/QUOTE] Even if your PC passes the minimum system requirements and you set everything to a minimum there is still no guarantee you will reach 60 FPS. On minimum it should be playable, what that means depends on the dev and no one cares is your framerate higher or lower than others, and you don't have much choice you talk about. Where did you see a developer promising 60 FPS even on minimum specs and settings ?

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52273014]Bungie doesn't want players to have a technical advantage over others, it's a fair decision not to give PSpro players an advantage over PS4, and you shouldn't compare it to the PC because on the PC you have the choice, on consoles you don't.[/QUOTE] just give console players the choice to make their game look worse to run better when possible. i've solved this whole problem, somebody please congratulate me.

[QUOTE=cowsaysoink;52273047]just give console players the choice to make their game look worse to run better when possible. i've solved this whole problem, somebody please congratulate me.[/QUOTE] That's great and all, but it's not happening anytime soon, and until it happens, we shouldn't hold Bungie responsible just because they didn't do it.

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52273056]That's great and all, but it's not happening anytime soon, and until it happens, we shouldn't hold Bungie responsible just because they didn't do it.[/QUOTE] but just do it

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52272903]Problem is that PSpro players and normal PS4 players will be playing together, PSpro players will have an advantage with 60 frames in PvP.[/QUOTE] Most people who play PvP on consoles are casual players so it doesn't really matter. If it did they would be on PC or have the PSpro. The games where 60fps do matter the developers will implement 60fp across all platforms. For instance, Guilty Gear Xrd is a fighting game on both PS3/PS4 with crossplay. PS4 is 60fps while the PS3 version is 90% of the time 60fps, only not getting there in cut scenes and edge cases. The trade off is that the PS3 version looks way worse than the PS4 version because 60fps is an absolute requirement for gameplay. (You can boost the graphics in-game to cut the fps down to 30fps but it's not the default and almost never used)

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52273014]Bungie doesn't want players to have a technical advantage over others, it's a fair decision not to give PSpro players an advantage over PS4, and you shouldn't compare it to the PC because on the PC you have the choice, on consoles you don't.[/QUOTE] Again, DICE has done just that and the world is still fucking spinning. Why can't Bungie do the same? There is NOBODY complaining that PSpro users have an advantage over PS4 users in BF1. Also, it's only and "advantage" in the sense that it raises the skillcap that was throttled by the bad framerate. If you suck, 60fps isn't gonna do shit. We should ALL strive for better gameplay. Why are you so dead set against the concept of smoother gameplay just because not everybody can benefit? Why should PSpro players pay for the PS4's worse performance?

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52273164]Again, DICE has done just that and the world is still fucking spinning. Why can't Bungie do the same? There is NOBODY complaining that PSpro users have an advantage over PS4 users in BF1. Also, it's only and "advantage" in the sense that it raises the skillcap that was throttled by the bad framerate. If you suck, 60fps isn't gonna do shit. We should ALL strive for better gameplay. Why are you so dead set against the concept of smoother gameplay just because not everybody can benefit? Why should PSpro players pay for the PS4's worse performance?[/QUOTE] tbt if people care about frame fairness then they can buy a ps4 pro, or better, a PC.

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52273164]Again, DICE has done just that and the world is still fucking spinning. Why can't Bungie do the same? There is NOBODY complaining that PSpro users have an advantage over PS4 users in BF1. Also, it's only and "advantage" in the sense that it raises the skillcap that was throttled by the bad framerate. If you suck, 60fps isn't gonna do shit. We should ALL strive for better gameplay. Why are you so dead set against the concept of smoother gameplay just because not everybody can benefit? Why should PSpro players pay for the PS4's worse performance?[/QUOTE] Because BF1 isn't a competitive game, and Bungie is changing the PVP in D2 to be competitive.

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52273185]Because BF1 isn't a competitive game, and Bungie is changing the PVP in D2 to be competitive.[/QUOTE] Even if BF1 isn't competitive, people would still bitch about any perceived advantages.

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52273014]Bungie doesn't want players to have a technical advantage over others, it's a fair decision not to give PSpro players an advantage over PS4, and you shouldn't compare it to the PC because on the PC you have the choice, on consoles you don't.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=CrossNgen;52273056]That's great and all, but it's not happening anytime soon, and until it happens, we shouldn't hold Bungie responsible just because they didn't do it.[/QUOTE] this sounds like a really really bad excuse to just ignore lazy development tbh the devs have the ability to make it happen. They could very easily, VERY EASILY, add the option, on consoles. It's not like consoles don't have the ability to do this shit, because I've seen it done in bioshock. It wouldn't be so out of the way that it'd be impossible and require a year of work. instead they kinda screw all players over because of something that PC gets but consoles don't because they can make the excuse that consoles never get them? No that isn't cool at all. Give me 30 fps 4k on the pro... give me 60fps 720p whatever settings you need on the older version, I don't care, just give me settings to tinker with.

[QUOTE=CrossNgen;52273185]Because BF1 isn't a competitive game, and Bungie is changing the PVP in D2 to be competitive.[/QUOTE] :what: Do you not realize the irony of claiming that the reason Bungie would want to maintain version parity is because they want make the game "competitive"? You DO know that the actual pros would simply get the better console if the PSpro could do 60fps right?

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52273260]:what: Do you not realize the irony of claiming that the reason Bungie would want to maintain version parity is because they want make the game "competitive"? You DO know that the actual pros would simply get the better console if the PSpro could do 60fps right?[/QUOTE] Consoles have players that will literally shell out [URL="https://www.amazon.com/Xbox-One-Elite-Wireless-Controller/dp/B00ZDNNRB8?th=1"]$140[/URL] for an ugly piece of poo I don't think that competitive players give a damn about pricing tbh

If you're playing games for the competitive aspect you shouldn't be playing them on consoles anyway.