On Friday July 18th the IDF invaded the Gaza strip in an operation aimed at "Destroying Hamas' militant tunnels". The facts of the situation can be best read from a news source. Here is an excerpt for the uninformed;
[quote="Wall Street Journal"]The operation began at about 10 p.m. local time Thursday and by Friday morning one Israeli soldier and 14 Palestinian militants were dead, according to the Israel Defense Forces. Gaza officials said that the death toll for the conflict rose to 260 dead, with nearly 2,000 injured, figures they say includes high numbers of civilians.
Israel decided to launch the operation, which it said was focused on underground tunnels used by militants, after Palestinian militants fired more than 100 rockets into the country at the end of a five-hour cease-fire meant to allow Gazans to restock on food and other supplies.
[url="http://online.wsj.com/articles/netanyahu-orders-israeli-troops-to-enter-gaza-1405628394"]Read More[/url][/quote]
As it stands at the time of creating this thread, the death toll is reported to be about [url="http://online.wsj.com/articles/casualties-mount-as-israel-continues-gaza-action-1405939660"]nearing 600 Palestinians and 27 Israelis[/url].
It seems to me that the issue here is an ethical one, primarily of discerning whether a military force which such advanced capabilities as compared to its opponent can be justified in engaging in such a conflict.
The argument for entering Gaza, as I understand it, is essentially that Hamas is a threat which must be eliminated. It is one which persists despite attempts to be peaceful, and that the Iron Dome isn't a permanent solution.
The issue however lies in the fact that there has been seeming indiscriminate killing as more than 150 of the dead among the Palestinians are children. One of the more infamous methods which has become known is the 'warning bombing'. Essentially the residents and people in an area are given warning by a mortar shot which indicates a larger airstrike is to come. Admittedly this sometimes is swapped out for a telephone call, or a leaflet drop. Israel claims that in doing this they do their moral duty before attacking the site, and that any reasonable innocent person would evacuate. However, as has been pointed out, they do not really have anywhere to evacuate. Both borders are closed, and the entire area has been turned into an unsafe war zone. Furthermore there has been use of flechette shells which explode with hundreds of pieces of aerodynamic shrapnel.
The resolutions often proposed include;
-Just use the Iron Dome, and back out.
-Make some sort of state conducive to both factions
-Bulldoze them harder, there is nothing but terrorists there
-International Intervention
My resolution is a more technological one, but I believe it strikes at the heart of the issue. It seems that the primary thing inflagrating both sides is the use of ranged explosives. If we were to introduce sabotaged ammunition into the area which disabled any weapon which uses it, then the conflict could be resolved for the time being by disarmament. This would be in a way similar to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Eldest_Son"]Project Eldest Son[/url]. Although I do not think they should lethal to the user, less that cause more inflagration. In project ES they made the ammunition produce 4 times the sustainable pressure of the firearm. This would result in the bolt shooting back and injuring the user. I propose something only effective enough to disable the firearm. This can be used for mortars as well, and perhaps even launchers.
Ofcourse there is always the two parts of the issue. First is the violent nature which sparks conflicts, but then there is also the underlying issue of hatred and mistrust prevalent in both cultures. It seems to be that while disarmament of the area is the immediate issue, in order to inact a lasting peace there must be some sort of reconcilliation between the two factions. If not to good relations, then atleast to tolerant relations. It seems that a large part of this issue also stems from the one-sidedness of the power struggle in the area. The land of palestine is constantly being settled, and any claims by the people to the land are met with staunch denial. It seems that in such a climate no progress can be made until an agreement conducive to both sides can be reached. This can perhaps be troublesome as there are factions which hold the land to be forever owned by the jewish people. They, however, are not the only ones around. It seems that only though fostering a more liberal government, open to the needs and claims of the Palestinians, can peace be achieved between Israel and her Muslim neighbours.
In conclusion, I believe that military action is something which will only exacerbate the problem in the long run, and cause much moral fouls along the way. It seems the only ethical way to go about this is a disarmament, and perhaps 3rd party negotiation to allow the needs and claims of the Palestinian people to be fairly addressed.
I'd like to reply to some of the resolutions you've proposed, I am from Israel, and I'll do my best to be as least biased as possible.
Just use the Iron Dome, and back out.
Well, we can start with the fact that the iron dome is not an absolute success, and it costs much money, around $50,000 per unit, and that's just the missile interceptor itself, not the battery.
Oftenly people tell me that the Hamas is undermanned, underpowered and cannot harm Israel, but in reality this is all false, they have enough missiles to hit us and kill, the kill-rate has gone down because of the iron dome.
A stab is a stab no matter how big the knife, take this into consideration.
Make some sort of state conducive to both factions
This has been tried multiple times, the first time being before the mass Jewish immigration to Israel ever happened, the proposed land cut would grant 20% of the land to the Jewish, and 80% to the Arab living there at the time, the arabs refused this partition plan in favor of riots.
The 1947 partition plan proposed an almost equal partition, with arabs still getting the most land, which also included the natural gas we have here, it was refused as-well in favor of war, the war ended with the Israelis winning and thus the modern Israeli borders were born.
Bulldoze them harder, there is nothing but terrorists there
Whoever is thinking this is very in-correct, the Gaza Strip is home to many palestinians who never took any arms or tried to harm Israel, unfortunately, Hamas is forcing these people to die, calling them to not leave their house when warning flyers were dropped at their location, SMS were sent to their phones regarding the immediate destruction of their house, which increases the death penalty for innocent civilians.
International Intervention
This has never solved anything, probably caused more damage.
International intervention would probably never happen, as I believe if someone cared, there would have been intervention in Syria a long while ago. Gaza isn't a recognized state and many view Hamas as a terrorist organization. While the fight may be very one-sided and resulting in a lot of innocent deaths, no country is going to support a side that uses terrorism to achieve their ends, especially in the post-911 age.
I feel that Israel's better bet against Hamas is to increase support to Fatah both in the West Bank and into Gaza, though a lot of money that goes to them gets sucked into the black hole of corruption.
We could try doing what America did and just give Palestine democracy... aka new political leaders that can be a lot more agreeable than Hamas.
[QUOTE=Monkah;45496282]We could try doing what America did and just give Palestine democracy... aka new political leaders that can be a lot more agreeable than Hamas.[/QUOTE]
Hamas would probably launch a coup/cause more disorder in no time.
My main concern is that one of the more military-advanced countries will give Hamas the missiles capable of bypassing the Iron Dome. Not only would the Israeli civilian casualties be massive, but the Israel retaliation would be catastrophic.
Hamas is a problem that needs to be dealt with before this ever even gets close to happening.
I am also an israeli, and I will try to explain the current situation:
While israel did infact fire first, it was not without good reason - Three israeli teenagers were murdered by palestinians, their body found in a farm about 10 days later.
The palestinians have fired over 1000 missiles while israel continues sending in food and medical aid to palestinian civillians.
Israel tries to only bomb places where missiles are stored/launched from, but the Hamas only does so in civillian populated areas
Israel warns palestinians when and where they will bomb, but the Hamas doesnt allow the palestinians to escape -They are using the civillians as human shields
Egypt offered a ceasefire, to which israel immediately accepted but the Hamas declined and the Hamas continued sending missiles at Israel.
This operation was caused due to the palestinians mining a very big amount of tunnels in order to reach Israel, each one is estimated to have costed about 1 million dollars. The israelis are trying to put a stop to the tunnels and to prevent palestinians to reach Israel.
Considering all these things, how could one say that in this war Israel is at fault?
(And no, I'm not talking about all the other cases so don't begin talking about "Kicking people out of their homes" because we too know how it felt in WW2).
Regarding what you proposed:
-Just use the Iron Dome, and back out.
Continue risking israeli civillians lives while not retaliating?
I doubt any country would allow their civilians lives to be risked without retaliating.
-Make some sort of state conducive to both factions
You mean the two state solution? With all the mutual hate, giving them a state won't exactly help the situation, it might only make it worse.
-Bulldoze them harder, there is nothing but terrorists there
Sadly the current israeli government is very right-handed (And I don't wonder why), and this has been proposed quite a lot. I hope this doesn't happen however.
-International Intervention
It might help a bit, but it will only make matters worse in the long run. Imagine an elementary schoolkid being bullied - Going to the teacher (The U.N.) might stop the bullies, but they will definitely continue once she turns her back, and when she does, it will be worse than before.
-Third Party Negotiation - Negotiation you say? How about a third party country negotiating for a ceasefire? It's hard to negotiate about needs with someone you're at war after all. Guess what, israel agreed to Egypt's ceasefire proposal, the Hamas declined.
One thing that I've always been interested in hearing about is the Palestinian people's view on Hamas. I understand Hamas was elected to power, but do the Palestinians live under oppressive rule from them, or are they happy to live under Hamas?
[QUOTE=urbanmonkey;45498310]One thing that I've always been interested in hearing about is the Palestinian people's view on Hamas. I understand Hamas was elected to power, but do the Palestinians live under oppressive rule from them, or are they happy to live under Hamas?[/QUOTE]
Like every country, opinions on the government changes according to the person in question, I guess.
[QUOTE=Monkah;45496282]We could try doing what America did and just give Palestine democracy... aka new political leaders that can be a lot more agreeable than Hamas.[/QUOTE]
The West Bank is suppose to be a democracy already. Last time they voted, though, Hamas took over Gaza.
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[QUOTE=Hulksbo;45499772]It [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine"]is[/URL][/QUOTE]
Not quite what I meant. It's part of another country, and a small section of it at that. If it were a country of its own, independent from the West Bank, then perhaps it could negotiate for foreign support on its own.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45498698]The West Bank is suppose to be a democracy already. Last time they voted, though, Hamas took over Gaza.[/QUOTE]
Too bad the Palestinian Authority doesn't do that much to stop Hamas.
Yes, Abbas did condemn them but right now it's Israel vs Hamas.
And yes, to some countries Palestine is a recognized state but for the most part it isn't sovereign.
[URL=http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/10/13/report-billions-of-dollars-of-aid-to-palestinian-authority-lost-to-corruption/]If anyone here thinks giving Palestine more 'humanitarian aid' is going to do much...[/URL]
It all ends up going to Hamas-- who instead of building homes, schools, and hospitals, uses it to buy more tunnels, more weapons, and more missiles. While non-monetary aid may go better, it's likely that Hamas will just steal all of that as well.
I believe if Israel and Palestine just became one state and "dual presidencies" i.e. 2 leaders, that have to agree for something to be done, with a representative congress, going on population and a senate that has an even amount of members for both Palestinians and Israelis. This isn't the best of ideas, but its better than trying to fight over holylands.
If a system like that one I state ever does happen there, obviously, it shouldn't be there forever, just till things settle down, and people aren't at each others throats.
[QUOTE=Monkah;45505891][URL=http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/10/13/report-billions-of-dollars-of-aid-to-palestinian-authority-lost-to-corruption/]If anyone here thinks giving Palestine more 'humanitarian aid' is going to do much...[/URL]
It all ends up going to Hamas-- who instead of building homes, schools, and hospitals, uses it to buy more tunnels, more weapons, and more missiles. While non-monetary aid may go better, it's likely that Hamas will just steal all of that as well.[/QUOTE]
Your link describes international aid being misused by the PA, it has nothing do with humanitarian aid and Gaza. Is this how you draw your conclusions?
[QUOTE=Lamar;45516535]Your link describes international aid being misused by the PA, it has nothing do with humanitarian aid and Gaza. Is this how you draw your conclusions?[/QUOTE]
Given that both areas are in very similar conditions economically, culturally, and politically, it's not that hard to surmise that Gaza and Hamas misuses its funds as well; and if not more so than the PA, due to its arms expenditures.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45517282]Given that both areas are in very similar conditions economically, culturally, and politically, it's not that hard to surmise that Gaza and Hamas misuses its funds as well; and if not more so than the PA, due to its arms expenditures.[/QUOTE]
If it's not hard to surmise then demonstrate it through relevant information and not semi-related material.
[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;45516342]I believe if Israel and Palestine just became one state and "dual presidencies" i.e. 2 leaders, that have to agree for something to be done, with a representative congress, going on population and a senate that has an even amount of members for both Palestinians and Israelis. This isn't the best of ideas, but its better than trying to fight over holylands.
If a system like that one I state ever does happen there, obviously, it shouldn't be there forever, just till things settle down, and people aren't at each others throats.[/QUOTE]
"They hate eachother and attack eachother with rockets, bombs, and other acts of terrorism. Why not bring them even closer to eachother, create a single state, to give them the opportunity to exit the Gaaza strip and be even more bloodthirsty!"
No. This is the stupidest suggestion I have heard yet. It's quite obvious that the one state solution is already impossible by now.
I never can understand why people believe a one state solution was ever a possibility.
The split has been fueled by religious fanatics and nationalism. Never would an Israeli want to be anything but an Israeli, same with Palestinians. There is no simply solution here. You could say getting rid of Hamas would work, but in trying to do so they have just created more terrorists.
If Israel wants to remove Arabs they should at least compensate them for having to go to another country.
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;45532187]If Israel wants to remove Arabs they should at least compensate them for having to go to another country.[/QUOTE] The last thing Israel wants is Palestinians or Palestine's land. Seriously, we even offered it to Egypt who were all like 'no way in hell'. Israel's only goal is to remove Hamas in whatever way possible, and honestly that's not too disagreeable of a goal.
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;45532187]If Israel wants to remove Arabs they should at least compensate them for having to go to another country.[/QUOTE]
Other countries don't want the Palestinians.
In every country that has Palestinians, they have zero human rights, the ability to vote, and in many cases the right to even work for a living. They're forbidden to gain citizenship as well and are in general, treated like shit.
Israel can give them all the compensation they want, but it won't create a place for them to go to after Israel shows them the door with their paycheck.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45541191]Other countries don't want the Palestinians.
In every country that has Palestinians, they have zero human rights, the ability to vote, and in many cases the right to even work for a living. They're forbidden to gain citizenship as well and are in general, treated like shit.
Israel can give them all the compensation they want, but it won't create a place for them to go to after Israel shows them the door with their paycheck.[/QUOTE]
So if other countries treat the Palestinians like scum, then aren't they just as guilty as Israel? I mean, now they [B]truly[/B] don't have a place to go.
[QUOTE=ExplosiveCheese;45542904]So if other countries treat the Palestinians like scum, then aren't they just as guilty as Israel? I mean, now they [B]truly[/B] don't have a place to go.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much. Palestinians will most likely one day be like Kurds, a large people without a country.
But on the other hand, since Palestinians are basically Arabs from a different region than where they are now, with the same culture, language and religion, if the Arab states the refugees reside in were to absorb them, they could easily lose their identity as "Palestinian" over time. So even if they did "have a place to go", they would most likely end up losing themselves anyway.
Not to mention, going by LVL FACTORY's original statement, just because the Palestinians had a place to go and Israel [I]did[/I] compensate them for leaving, that doesn't in any way justify making them leave to begin with.
As with being just as guilty as Israel? Well, they treat the refugees like shit and consider them refugees when a large number of them were born in their country and have never seen Palestine, but Israel is the one who bombs and colonizes what little land Palestinians have left to call home. I would call it fairly even, but I can understand how some would say Israel is the worse or the Arab states are the worse.
The Palestinians should more accurately be called the Arabs living in Palestine. Before the British Mandate there wasn't even a people group known as Palestinians. It was purely a geographical specification, similar to Appalachia in the US, or Mesopotamia in Asia.
The word 'Palestine' has completely changed meaning over a very short amount of time.
Illegal occupation, war crimes, and torture upon false extrapolated ridiculous claims contrary to genetics, history, and religion since 1947 is illegal occupation, war crimes, and torture upon false extrapolated ridiculous claims contrary to genetics, history, and religion since 1947. I would know...
[QUOTE=sgman91;45548383]The Palestinians should more accurately be called the Arabs living in Palestine. Before the British Mandate there wasn't even a people group known as Palestinians. It was purely a geographical specification, similar to Appalachia in the US, or Mesopotamia in Asia.
The word 'Palestine' has completely changed meaning over a very short amount of time.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but that doesn't help the Arabs from Palestine be ostracized in other Arab countries unfortunately.
I've got a friend who lives in Israel and from what I understand the general opinion over there is that Israel is only defending itself, and my friend stated that civilian casualties are 'part of war'.
TBH, I think that both sides are to blame here - Israel are barely hurting Hamas since the majority of deaths caused by the bombing are civilian deaths and the general attitude seems to be 'it's part of war'. Hamas keeps stirring shit, then when the overwhelming retaliation (as is inevitable when attacking Israel) is thrown back against them, they use their own civilians as human shields and are obviously milking the media for every drop of anti-Israeli coverage they can get by parading the casualties about across the news. They're also refusing to accept a cease fire which even ISRAEL fucking agreed on, and when they do they seem to break it in one way or another.
TL;DR Hamas need to stop stirring shit and Israel need to stop causing so much collateral damage.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45557741]I agree, but that doesn't help the Arabs from Palestine be ostracized in other Arab countries unfortunately.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, the situation of the Palestinians is made worse by other Arabs. The other Arabs see the situation in Israel as a good excuse for Jihad and so don't give Palestinian expats citizenship. This forces the Palestinians to stay in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The West bank is doing okay but the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are being held hostage by people who don't care about them. Hamas sunk millions of dollars into tunnels and could have used the money to build hospitals, schools, etc.
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