I'm curious what you guys think of this.
[video=youtube;pLef6CGVoWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLef6CGVoWU[/video]
did this chick really just say no homeless people starve in the west?
[QUOTE=Flameon;49593096]did this chick really just say no homeless people starve in the west?[/QUOTE]
A little bit of background: Her parents used to be really well-off business owners in Russia or Ukraine then left for Toronto. That could explain her world-view.
What I find pretty fascinating is how certain regimes are given the pass, whereas others aren't. Like, USA... enslaved millions of African slaves.... genocided Native Americans... but its ok because in the long-run of democracy we've made ammends?
I feel like so many of the proto-communist regimes weren't given the 300 years of grace period to "make it right".
[QUOTE=Flameon;49593230]What I find pretty fascinating is how certain [B]regimes[/B] are given the pass, whereas others aren't. Like, [B]USA[/B]... enslaved millions of African slaves.... genocided Native Americans... but its ok because in the long-run of democracy we've made ammends?
I feel like so many of the proto-communist regimes weren't given the 300 years of grace period to "make it right".[/QUOTE]
I don't think you quite understand the definition of regime if you say the United States is one.
[QUOTE=Flameon;49593230]
I feel like so many of the proto-communist regimes weren't given the 300 years of grace period to "make it right".[/QUOTE]
What is that supposed to mean?
Pretty much every communist government came into power against the wishes of the people, maintained it's power through violence and terror and was eventually forced out of power by the people.
The reason Communist/Socialist governments have never survived is because they're fundamentally flawed ideologies.
[QUOTE=Flameon;49593230]What I find pretty fascinating is how certain regimes are given the pass, whereas others aren't. Like, USA... enslaved millions of African slaves.... genocided Native Americans... but its ok because in the long-run of democracy we've made ammends?
I feel like so many of the proto-communist regimes weren't given the 300 years of grace period to "make it right".[/QUOTE]
we gave the soviet union nearly 80 years and they ended up collapsing by themselves
like literally every single problem in a communist country is self-inflicted
Yeah, a lot of her stuff has very, very valid points.
When my family ever has it hardoff for whatever reason, I tend to dumpster dive in apartment complexes for stuff like vacuums which I can easily repair and turn around for about $50 profit. As for dumpsterdiving for food, eyuppp. Did that when I was younger in order to get fruit that was sealed in plastic and the only thing "wrong" with it was that it was slightly bruised.
Honestly, people who ever say its hard to find food are to choke-filled with pride to realize that getting food is as simple as knocking on someones door and asking for a can of food. Most people would happily oblige. Hell, I have gone to people house's and knocked on their doors and asked if they had work that could be done, and they'd pay me like $10, to vacuum their house. Is it good money? Fuck no. It is money though that you could use to live.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
One example of dumpsterdiving amazingness:
[t]http://i.imgur.com/EjfiYyY.jpg[/t]
I found this Tiffany Delft vase which retails for roughly $150 on most sites while dumpsterdiving in an apartment complex frequented by nurses.
[QUOTE=The mouse;49593332]What is that supposed to mean?
Pretty much every communist government came into power against the wishes of the people, maintained it's power through violence and terror and was eventually forced out of power by the people.
The reason Communist/Socialist governments have never survived is because they're fundamentally flawed ideologies.[/QUOTE]
So when are we going to stop lumping together socialism and communism? They're not interchangeable.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;49593925]So when are we going to stop lumping together socialism and communism? They're not interchangeable.[/QUOTE]
communism is a subset of socialism
all communists are also socialists, so it stands to reason that instances of communist failure are also failures of particular fundamentals of socialism
[QUOTE=Flameon;49593230]What I find pretty fascinating is how certain regimes are given the pass, whereas others aren't. Like, USA... enslaved millions of African slaves.... genocided Native Americans... but its ok because in the long-run of democracy we've made ammends?
I feel like so many of the proto-communist regimes weren't given the 300 years of grace period to "make it right".[/QUOTE]
Because what can you do to make it alright now after all that genocide in the past?
Short answer, we don't, because we can't, there's no reasonable realistic way to make amends except for just dealing with what we did and move on. America has blood on it's hands, all nations have blood on their hands too, America wasn't the only nation to practice the slave trade, and it wasn't one of the first either, slavery is as old as humanity itself.
As for the genocide of natives, that was the times, Manifest destiny, America looking towards it's ancestors across the Atlantic wanting to be like them, plus no European gave a true shit about natives, those were just the times. Spain happily pillaged and destroyed an entire empire, because the natives had spears, swords, and leather, we had steel, cannons, guns, and diseases we were used to but not the natives, that fight was over before it ever began.
If the Native Americans truly wanted Europe to stay away, they would have to quickly form a new Empire, gather resources and build an economy, and most importantly, have the tech to fight men with gunpowder. But spears and arrows on horseback fell to men with muskets, numbers, economy, and determined empires wanting more land.
That's history for ya.
[editline]23rd January 2016[/editline]
And before you mention natives having access to guns during the 19th century, it was far too late by then. The Americans were halfway into the country and were dug in DEEP. Even if you could organize all those tribes into a army, all the East Coast would have to do is send more Soldiers and guns westward.
[video=youtube;-0LHC6F6n_s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0LHC6F6n_s[/video]
[QUOTE=Flameon;49593230]What I find pretty fascinating is how certain regimes are given the pass, whereas others aren't. Like, USA... enslaved millions of African slaves.... genocided Native Americans... but its ok because in the long-run of democracy we've made ammends?
I feel like so many of the proto-communist regimes weren't given the 300 years of grace period to "make it right".[/QUOTE]
What what? It's not like slavery could be abolished immediately once the US was independent. There was so many compromises on that issue until the Civil War happened.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;49593842]Yeah, a lot of her stuff has very, very valid points.
When my family ever has it hardoff for whatever reason, I tend to dumpster dive in apartment complexes for stuff like vacuums which I can easily repair and turn around for about $50 profit. As for dumpsterdiving for food, eyuppp. Did that when I was younger in order to get fruit that was sealed in plastic and the only thing "wrong" with it was that it was slightly bruised. [/QUOTE]
Yeah I used to do the same shit when I was a little kid, never found any decent food or anything nifty though. Mostly looking for loose change people threw out by accident.
Was funny the couple times a store owner or something would come out and see a kid in a school uniform rummaging threw their trash and chase after me.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49594097]communism is a subset of socialism
all communists are also socialists, so it stands to reason that instances of communist failure are also failures of particular fundamentals of socialism[/QUOTE]
It's actually a bit more complicated then that
[video]https://youtu.be/U-1k_MDB4J8[/video]
She isn't right about a lot of stuff. A lot of European countries have adopted stuff like free healthcare and free education, and it's a lot better than pure balls-to-the-wall capitalism some people in America propose. The perfect system is somewhere between capitalism and socialism, that takes elements from both systems
There is no perfect, all solving system. Capitalism worked for the last couple hundred years, but even now it's starting to fall apart in most western countries.
[QUOTE=elowin;49596338]There is no perfect, all solving system. Capitalism worked for the last couple hundred years, but even now it's starting to fall apart in most western countries.[/QUOTE]
Explain how it's falling apart, please. Because from what I see the United States still has the strongest economy in the world due to capitalism.
Capitalism serves fine right now as opposed to literally no other real alternative that Americans can be comfortable with.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;49596451]Explain how it's falling apart, please. Because from what I see the United States still has the strongest economy in the world due to capitalism.[/QUOTE]
That's not really a remotely accurate measure of how well the system is faring, quite honestly.
Same goes for the reasons it's slowly starting not to work as well as it used to, there are a lot of factors involved. Three of the major ones are technology, social change and monopolies, I'll go over them in extremely simplified format.
I'll start with technology. Pretty simple, this one. As time goes on, less and less entry level jobs will be available as many of them get replaced by cheaper robotics, especially within manufacturing. The many low level factory workers get slowly replaced by a lesser amount of higher education maintenance jobs. Although recently this trend has been somewhat reversed as China got onto the market, but that won't last forever.
Secondly, there's social change. Basically, people are starting to think that all people deserve to have a decent life, even if they don't make a lot of money. This has given rise to things like universal health care and welfare systems. This is progressing a lot faster in most of Europe than in America, but it's happening both places. Besides that, people are also starting to realize that success in capitalism is not a direct result of hard work, which undermines the entire system.
Thirdly, monopolies. This is something that just naturally forms through long periods of pure capitalism, eventually some companies will rise to the top and completely dominate the market. I'm not going to go over the many ways that this is bad for everyone involved except the guys with the monopoly, but it is. Even America has realized this, and tries to regulate the economy to avoid monopolies, with mixed successes. In the modern world, a startup doesn't really stand much of a chance unless they've found some completely new market, and even in cases like those, successful new companies almost always get purchased by larger corporations very quickly.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;49596451]Explain how it's falling apart, please. Because from what I see the United States still has the strongest economy in the world due to capitalism.[/QUOTE]
It also has rampant inequality and an economy that's naturally completely controlled by the mega rich. But to be perfectly honest nobody has came up with a viable alternative... so yeah.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;49596621]It also has rampant inequality and an economy that's naturally completely controlled by the mega rich. But to be perfectly honest nobody has came up with a viable alternative... so yeah.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it didn't suck, it's just something we've worked with for ages, like Democracy. There's no alternative yet, and until then we're still gonna be capitalists.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;49596294]She isn't right about a lot of stuff. A lot of European countries have adopted stuff like free healthcare and free education, and it's a lot better than pure balls-to-the-wall capitalism some people in America propose. The perfect system is somewhere between capitalism and socialism, that takes elements from both systems[/QUOTE]
I think she's talking in the more solid definitions of Capitalism vs Socialism, saying that a capitalist system (even a mixed economy that you're talking about) is better than a Marxist (not even soviet) system.
[QUOTE=LiquidNazgul;49593925]So when are we going to stop lumping together socialism and communism? They're not interchangeable.[/QUOTE]
You're right, they're not interchangeable. However all "Communist" Governments, call themselves Socialist such as the USSR, China, North Korea and Cuba.
[QUOTE=elowin;49596617]I'll start with technology. Pretty simple, this one. As time goes on, less and less entry level jobs will be available as many of them get replaced by cheaper robotics, especially within manufacturing. The many low level factory workers get slowly replaced by a lesser amount of higher education maintenance jobs. Although recently this trend has been somewhat reversed as China got onto the market, but that won't last forever.[/quote]
The main difference is that most employment shifts into other jobs. People work in services instead of factories these days. Like it's not just high-education jobs, but jobs are created all the time everywhere in an economy. Every time a machine reduces the cost of labour for some task and destroys the job, another job is freed up/created somewhere else.
Imagine if a factory laid off ten workers because of some new process. The factory can afford to increase production, increase wages, lower prices, etc in order to retain market share.
Let's say they lowered prices. Consumers will have more money left off from buying such goods, and consequently they will spend it on other goods and services. In turn this means that other sectors of the economy will see increased demand for those goods and services, and ultimately will increase employment.
[quote]Thirdly, monopolies. This is something that just naturally forms through long periods of pure capitalism, eventually some companies will rise to the top and completely dominate the market. I'm not going to go over the many ways that this is bad for everyone involved except the guys with the monopoly, but it is. Even America has realized this, and tries to regulate the economy to avoid monopolies, with mixed successes. In the modern world, a startup doesn't really stand much of a chance unless they've found some completely new market, and even in cases like those, successful new companies almost always get purchased by larger corporations very quickly.[/QUOTE]
Monopolies often tend to break down and don't last particularly long. Smaller markets are easier to dominate, but extremely large organisations become rather incompetent and cumbersome, so in the global market it would be difficult for a corporation to dominate. As the economy becomes increasingly complex and integrated, it will only get harder for them.
[QUOTE=joshuadim;49593270]I don't think you quite understand the definition of regime if you say the United States is one.[/QUOTE]
You don't think that from the perspective of Native Americans or African slaves that the USA was a regime? Maintained its power through violence and terror, destroyed all opposition.
Only after like 200 years did U.S. democracy extend to include people besides land-owning white males.
[QUOTE=Flameon;49597646]You don't think that from the perspective of Native Americans or African slaves that the USA was a regime? Maintained its power through violence and terror, destroyed all opposition.
Only after like 200 years did U.S. democracy extend to include people besides land-owning white males.[/QUOTE]
So? I don't see where your going with this. You're talking about the past, even saying the US [U]was[/U] a regime.
A lot of the shit the US did 200 years ago was normal for countries, Look at GB, France, and Spain, they killed hundreds of millions, wiped the Aztecs, Mayans, and several other ethnicities off the map completely, and probably enslaved several times more people than the US did
While I'm not condoning the actions of the US when it was forming, I am saying that you shouldn't keep a grudge on something after everybody involved has been dead for longer than you've been alive, and a shit ton has changed from the times when that shit happened and now (Such as the UN being formed, the Spanish, French, and British empire falling, and the US outlawing slavery, and allowing blacks and women to vote).
Countries aren't given a "free pass" anymore because its no longer acceptable to do it in this age, and because they refuse to better themselves.
[QUOTE=Flameon;49597646]You don't think that from the perspective of Native Americans or African slaves that the USA was a regime? Maintained its power through violence and terror, destroyed all opposition.
Only after like 200 years did U.S. democracy extend to include people besides land-owning white males.[/QUOTE]
You're right. Only land owning whites could vote until 1976.
I don't get the "it's hypocritical to use twitter/drink coffee/etc.." argument. I mean, it could be applied to so many things. If you dislike child labour why tf are you wearing clothes manufactured in the third world? If you hate slavery, why do you ride trains? Just shit like that. It's dumb.
I don't use twitter cause it's a cancer, but the video does make it out to be that the people on there are advocating for old-school tried-and-true authoritarian socialism, and yeah, if you still support that, you're crazy.
[QUOTE=Toro;49597839]So? I don't see where your going with this. You're talking about the past, even saying the US [U]was[/U] a regime.
A lot of the shit the US did 200 years ago was normal for countries, Look at GB, France, and Spain, they killed hundreds of millions, wiped the Aztecs, Mayans, and several other ethnicities off the map completely, and probably enslaved several times more people than the US did
While I'm not condoning the actions of the US when it was forming, I am saying that you shouldn't keep a grudge on something after everybody involved has been dead for longer than you've been alive, and a shit ton has changed from the times when that shit happened and now (Such as the UN being formed, the Spanish, French, and British empire falling, and the US outlawing slavery, and allowing blacks and women to vote).
Countries aren't given a "free pass" anymore because its no longer acceptable to do it in this age, and because they refuse to better themselves.[/QUOTE]
Totally! I'm not disagreeing and saying that the USA was "uniquely" evil for the time - the whole history of the time was barbarity. But, the American/European experience was redeemed. Today we say, "Yes, we comitted great evil just like everyone else, but we have redeemed ourselves by being committed to democracy/ethics/human rights/humanism/etc". I'm just reflecting that all it takes is a couple bad runs in Communism for us to say, "NEVER AGAIN!" but Capitalism, with a history that is essentially equally as bloody, is allowed the chance for redemption.
@Duct:
Landless white men - 1856
Non-whites - 1870 (in theory... in practice wait another ~90 years)
Women - 1920
Native Americans - 1924
So you are right. More like 150 years not 200. My mistake.
[QUOTE=Flameon;49598380]Totally! I'm not disagreeing and saying that the USA was "uniquely" evil for the time - the whole history of the time was barbarity. But, the American/European experience was redeemed. Today we say, "Yes, we comitted great evil just like everyone else, but we have redeemed ourselves by being committed to democracy/ethics/human rights/humanism/etc". I'm just reflecting that all it takes is a couple bad runs in Communism for us to say, "NEVER AGAIN!" but Capitalism, with a history that is essentially equally as bloody, is allowed the chance for redemption.
@Duct:
Landless white men - 1856
Non-whites - 1870 (in theory... in practice wait another ~90 years)
Women - 1920
Native Americans - 1924
So you are right. More like 150 years not 200. My mistake.[/QUOTE]
The difference is that most communist states were totalitarian dictatorships, and combined with the massive propaganda efforts by the western world in the 50s-80s, it left a really bad impression on communism even through today, and a lot of the bad shit that happened with communism (Like the tens of millions of people who starved under Stalin / Zedong) was very available when it happened due to how much faster news could be spread in the 20th century compared to all earlier centuries, all this made people have a way lower patience level with communism.
Another reason I believe a lot of people like capitalism more is because it offers the biggest chance of huge material gain, In a capitalist society you can have as much money as you work for, while in a Communist / marxist society, everyone gets paid the same wage, and the government gets pretty uneasy if anyone has too much money (A good example of this is Dong Nguyen, at his peak he was raking in $50,000 a day from Flappy Bird, and then iirc he started getting threatened by the Vietnamese Government because he was making too much money compared to everyone else)
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