• Cliff Bleszinkski responds to 'Tropes vs. Women' furor
    215 replies, posted
[quote][[B]Disclaimer[/B]: I was a key creative in what is often considered one of the more “dudebro” franchises out there, Gears of War. I’d also like to remind everyone out there that I went out of my way in working with our team, the writers, and Epic’s artists to make sure that female characters are represented well in that franchise. By the time we got around to Gears 3 the female soldiers were kicking butt right alongside the men in outfits that weren’t drastically different than the men’s, and with a restrained depiction of hair and makeup. (I was just tired of seeing stripper looking female game characters after all of those years…ironic, considering how exaggerated the men were.) (I’m also not the best person to post about misogyny on the internet as I’ll be the first one to post a sexy picture of my wife or give young boys tips on how to flirt with girls.) However, I can’t let this one slip, because there’s a deeper cancer plaguing our business. Let’s talk about [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian"]Anita Sarkeesian[/URL]. The “Tropes Vs. Women” controversy caught my attention when I noticed, right on Anita’s main [URL="http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/245217"]Kickstarter[/URL] image for her campaign, that there was Anya, front and center. I was surprised and a bit confused by this. As I mentioned above, she wasn’t an object to “win” in the Gears franchise. She was far from helpless as the franchise matured. Even then the franchise was famous or characters such as fan favorite Bernie, who was an older woman who kicked plenty of enemy butt as well. Once her first [URL="http://kotaku.com/5989286/heres-anita-sarkeesians-first-tropes-vs-women-in-games-video"]video [/URL]launched, I found it to be smart, informative, and well put together. She clearly knows what she’s doing and, even if you knew a lot of the information she was sharing it’s worth watching for the nostalgia of how comedic the repetitive nature the business has been with the Damsel in Distress motif. After watching the video I went to my Twitter feed to see what the fuss was about … were there really people out there who were still so very angry at what this woman was doing? As it turns out, yes, there were. I heard a variety of responses. Before we dive into some of the thinking behind them, let’s look at some of the Kickstarter numbers and break it down a bit. Anita was asking for 6000$ for her campaign. News hit the internet of the campaign, and the Taliban of videogaming responded in droves. Who was this…this…woman who wanted to [I]analyze[/I] women in video games? How dare she! An army of bold (and, naturally, largely anonymous) men…no, wait, boys, because even adult males that acted in this manner are boys – proceeded to give her a digital stoning. We saw a public display that mirrored the worst of what the anonymous internet male culture has to offer. That young guy who assumes that a girl playing an online game is fat, ugly or slutty now had a CAUSE to rally behind! And then a funny thing happened. Anita shared some of the heinous virtual abuse – [B]bullying[/B], in fact – on her website and people rallied behind her to the tune of over 150K. Folks who responded to my Twitter query were[I]enraged[/I] by this fact! How dare she ask for money and then get … well, a whole lot more money! One guy even made a flash game where you can beat her up. [I]How much of a bored, hateful loser must you be to even consider doing something like that?![/I] I’d like to take this moment and remind everyone out there that my good friends at Doublefine, not so long ago, also killed it on Kickstarter. After asking for 400K on Kickstarter they wound up with a final tally of 3.3m. Now, I read the Kickstarter page about campaigns that succeed and I didn’t find a single line about doing [I]too[/I] well at Kickstarter. As far as I can tell, if you put up a campaign where you ask for 500 bucks to artistically photograph your ham sandwich and it becomes a [I]thing[/I] online you’re welcome to do whatever you need to with the difference as long as you fulfill your promises to each backer. So let me get this straight. Doublefine can win Kickstarter but a woman who wants to analyze the treatment of her gender in our business is somehow…[I]exempt from this?[/I] What color is the sky in the world you trolls live in?[/quote] The full text is [URL="http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/45150472512/anonymous-internet-boy-taliban-tropes"]here.[/URL] I think he about nailed it. I was disappointed that the first episode wasn't particularly original and didn't take any risks, but I think the cause is a good one and the hilariously excessive uproar against it is probably something to be ashamed of. Even if her execution isn't quite up to par (yet), it'll be worth it if gets more people to think and I'm glad to see CliffyB coming out in support of it.
Since when did someone's opinion become news? And isn't Cliffy who also said that PC is a dead platform full of only pirates?
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;39883224]Since when did someone's opinion become news? And isn't Cliffy who also said that PC is a dead platform full of only pirates?[/QUOTE] Sorry, I didn't know where else to post it. Should this maybe be moved to 'Gaming Discussion' instead?
Taliban is a good way to describe it.
The thing is, Tropes vs Women really has no point. "Lots of teenage and young adult gamers play our games. We should add hot women into these games to make them appeal to this audience." It's not really a hard problem to figure out.
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;39883224]Since when did someone's opinion become news? And isn't Cliffy who also said that PC is a dead platform full of only pirates?[/QUOTE] Who cares, the dude is still a big name in the industry, and I think he hit the nail on the head with this Although yeah, not sure how Anya was a negative image for girls, I don't really remember anything from GoW but I'm pretty sure she was able to hold her own
I could say that I skimmed her first video and could say that it made sense, but then again all she said was that women in videogames are stereotyped and shit like that. But when you're marketing to a mostly male community, sex sells
well yes sure but its the circle of demographics your market share can only get so big if you are shoving tits in the players face but you don't want to lose your current market share by taking away some tits
Before this thread turns into a justification for people decrying feminism and Anita's efforts in combating inherent misogyny in many (not all) video games, I will post what I said in the last thread, which neatly sums everything up. [quote=person11;39855812][quote=Devodiere;39853503] you really do believe in this patriarchy bullshit, don't you? well at least i got a response rather than "you're stupid, grow up" like every other one of your posts. responding to every one of your points would be long and arduous so i'll cut to the core of it. i'm more than aware of how society is shaped and despite most of your statistics being from completely different societies, there are obvious real issues other than petty shit in video games, the cause of these issues is where we differ. your claim is that white males are the ones shaping it whether intentionally or unintentionally, according to their views, that they are the reason for all of this misogyny whether directly or indirectly, which is complete garbage. the self esteem issue is a complex one with many root causes through media and the beauty industry which is pretty diverse, but you know it's really the fault of white males and the women they brainwashed. there are anthropological and biological reasons ranging from differences in brain structure to maternal bonding to women just not being physical as strong, but none of that matters because the axiom of equality doesn't take into account any actual differences.if you want to get specific there's even enough sexism within the african american community that they formed their own black feminism, but it doesn't really matter if they're white or not, it's still all males oppressing women. even when no-one influences anything one way or the other and it's just the inertia of a society barely out of worse days, it's still white men perpetuating it because they're not doing enough to stamp out sexism and bring things to the horribly ambiguous equal that you define. white people are the majority in western countries and with men obviously influencing a lot, it makes a nice target to blame all your issues on, but it's bullshit. gender inequality is a complex issue, particularly in how you define equality, and pushing the blame on any one person or group for something in the entirety of society is simplistic crap. there are actual issues that you won't make go away by policing everyone who might perpetuate something you disagree with. if you're really interested in fixing something, learn why it actually occurs and how it is possible to change it rather than vilification and using the utter stupidity of the patriarchy concept. [/quote] I would not say they are the reason for all misogyny, but in our society, they are the ones who help perpetuate it. Despite the fashion and make up industries being seen as women dominated, men, most of whom are white, still lead these companies and direct their efforts towards marketing the ideals of a skinny, white, and submissive woman. Some might do it on purpose because that is how they think women should be, such as the head of American Apparel, who is notable in his being a huge douchebag, but others may simply do it because it makes them the most money, contributing to the image without meaning to. The patriarchy is not some dumb bullshit conspiracy theory. It obviously sounds like one when you use the word, as if there was a secret illuminati like council of men in a room deciding how to promote women's inequality, but the word refers to more subtle forces continuing tropes of inequality that have existed for centuries. It is not that men in power are trying to find new ways to oppress women, it is that society and those who control it benefit the most from keeping things the same, and the same happens to be a society in which we appeal to a man's strength but to a woman's sexuality to judge them. I am glad you are somewhat aware of the issues of pay gaps, etc, but being an ally to feminism does not entail cherry picking the issues you want to stand behind. While combating pay gaps is more important in the short term than fixing the video game industry in terms of their stories and characters, both do need to eventually be fixed. In fact, and this may sound farfetched, but fixing all the tropes about women's roles in stories and societies may make people treat them better, and actually not try to, or accidentally, pay them less than men. That is what videos like this are about: the hope that solving little things like women used as objectives in video games will make the players less likely to be assholes to women, explicitly (get in the kitchen!) or implicitly (condemning "radical feminism", which does not exist, or choosing a guy over a girl for a job without realizing it). The little things can turn into big things, especially when you factor in the fact that many kids are growing up with these types of stories, and that these tropes can easily get acculturated into them. Once again, not to sound like an asshole, all of this is clear from an academic standpoint. The combination of all the problems that women face in this society can easily be defined by a society in which the heads of most media corporations and departments in governments, the most respected creative writers, etc, ie the so called "heads" of societies, are male, and continue to push a vision of women and men having to act a certain kind of way. People always underestimate the power of society and the way it forces everyone living in it to think a certain way. If we were all raised to think that women should be stronger than men, and that men should work at home, we would have found all sorts of ways to justify that, and we would have video games in which strong women save men from the bad guys. So what we need to do is raise awareness of how we can make the video game industry better in terms of equality for women, minorities, and LGBT groups, and then start scholarships for women in writing and coding games, as well as managing the business side of it. Before, women were not in the industry because only guys played video games, and that still influences how many women want to get into it. There is still a notion that video games are for guys only, and that notion needs to be corrected. After that, the only way we can encourage women to get into the gaming industry and become more active in the video gaming community is to not respond like assholes every time a video like things comes around. I made my little sister promise not to reveal that she is a girl when she plays Team Fortress 2, despite the fact that many here would say that it is a more friendly atmosphere than, say, xbox live. I told my older sister about this, and it turns out she stopped playing it. She told me that, as soon as she said something, the entire server swarmed over her, and started to say that the fact she was not doing well (it was her 5th or so time playing) meant that she was only playing to get a guys attention. All she was doing was trying to play a game when she was harassed. My older sister also wanted to get a job in programming, but dropped her third major, COmputer Science, after being constantly harangued by her all male classmates. While many structural reasons exist for why women are not in management positions in the video game industry (the notion that games are for guys, and the fact that entrenched companies started out nearly all male), what is really holding us back from equality in this industry alone is the fact that we tend to act like dicks around women. I mean, just look at some of the initial comments in this thread. Anyway, I know a lot of you arguing with me mean well, but it is your attitude that led to my sister giving up an entire area of interest of hers, and keeping with more "feminine things". When a girl sees a video that simply shows that plenty of video games use the damsel trope get panned like this by a bunch of guys who think it is not a real issue, it is not exactly encouraging to her. I will just conclude by saying that there should never have been such a harsh and negative reaction to this video, and the discussions prompted should not have even happened, considering how simple her point is.[/quote]
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;39883238]Sorry, I didn't know where else to post it. Should this maybe be moved to 'Gaming Discussion' instead?[/QUOTE] It's a fine place for it, no one complained when someone posted another opinion from Cliff B talking about monetization. [editline]11th March 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=LordCrypto;39883496]well yes sure but its the circle of demographics your market share can only get so big if you are shoving tits in the players face but you don't want to lose your current market share by taking away some tits[/QUOTE] Do you seriously know anyone who buys games because boobs? It adds nothing. Most games that are critically acclaimed have strong female characters.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;39883252]The thing is, Tropes vs Women really has no point. "Lots of teenage and young adult gamers play our games. We should add hot women into these games to make them appeal to this audience." It's not really a hard problem to figure out.[/QUOTE] So rather than trying to broaden your audience, you instead would prefer to zero in on one demographic? One demographic that wouldn't even really care if the women in the games they were playing weren't running around in 75% less battle armor than everyone else, as Gears of War did show with its popularity.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39883612]Do you seriously know anyone who buys games because boobs? It adds nothing. Most games that are critically acclaimed have strong female characters.[/QUOTE] If browsing the nexus taught me anything its that boobs is the only reason a lot of people bought skyrim.
clifford b said a thing I disagree with how dare he support women in any way shape or form women shouldnt be in gaming at all i think gaming should be for men only i mean we dont have any safe spaces left at all in the world the lblt people get safe spaces and women get safe spaces and i mean even disabled people get safe spaces so why cant men have safe spaces women want to take away our safe spaces and send us all back to the stone age well i mean like an inverse stone age because in the stone age men were in control and honestly thats the way it should be i mean do you ever hear of nuclear wars or anything in the stone age no you dont and thats because men should be in charge and when women show up men only think about sex and then nuclear bombs go off thats just a fact of life but anyway back to video games i think anita is a feminist who wants to oppress men by taking away their video games but thats just my opinion whats yours facepunch edit i mean differently unabled i wouldnt want to upset the political correct policeofficers
[QUOTE=Zeke129;39884174]clifford b said a thing I disagree with how dare he support women in any way shape or form women shouldnt be in gaming at all i think gaming should be for men only i mean we dont have any safe spaces left at all in the world the lblt people get safe spaces and women get safe spaces and i mean even disabled people get safe spaces so why cant men have safe spaces women want to take away our safe spaces and send us all back to the stone age well i mean like an inverse stone age because in the stone age men were in control and honestly thats the way it should be i mean do you ever hear of nuclear wars or anything in the stone age no you dont and thats because men should be in charge and when women show up men only think about sex and then nuclear bombs go off thats just a fact of life but anyway back to video games i think anita is a feminist who wants to oppress men by taking away their video games but thats just my opinion whats yours facepunch[/QUOTE] ja mon i mean fuck women right they oppress alpha men in the computer game zone i mean really where will i ever get my steam sales ever again fuck women wow
[QUOTE=Ownederd;39884193]ja mon i mean fuck women right they oppress alpha men in the computer game zone i mean really where will i ever get my steam sales ever again fuck women wow[/QUOTE] this is right i mean look at all the big name game developers we have gabe newel and we have mr. nintendo and neither of those are women at all so i think that speaks for itself
[QUOTE=Zeke129;39884213]this is right i mean look at all the big name game developers we have gabe newel and we have mr. nintendo and neither of those are women at all so i think that speaks for itself[/QUOTE] HEIL HITLER Fuck I missed my cue again.
I saw her damsel in distress video and it is obvious this is at least partly aimed at young girls. There is no other reasonable explanation for why she deems it necessary to define 'damsel in distress'. She not only defines it, but goes into a long(for a short video) history of it. Kids, particularly the target audience of girls, are the ones who benefit from setting this kind of foundation. As far as why games are sexist, no one disputes why. To make money, duh. What is in dispute is the question of why, even in this late date of 2013, the videogame industry is STILL ignorant of this huge market of customers they are alienating, when they could be raking in the cash from them? It's not either/or, you can include the standard male lead and the sexy damsel in distress, just include a female lead and a nutless wonder of a dude who needs saving. Fair play.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;39884413]As far as why games are sexist, no one disputes why. To make money, duh.[/QUOTE] I don't think sexism is a conscious decision; nearly all the time, it's more of an ever-lingering presence in the background, which leads most people to assume "that's how it should be, that's how it is". And that's why there are people like Anita who want to educate others
My problem with misogyny in video games is that a lot of women claim developers are only appealing to men, when many games have been put forward for women that just didn't sell. I'm against the portrayal of women in games like Duke Nukem, but that's really as far as this cause needs to go. The controversy behind CDPR's Cyberpunk trailer is proof that feminism is becoming far too touchy in the industry.
[QUOTE=sedarahC;39884897]My problem with misogyny in video games is that a lot of women claim developers are only appealing to men, when many games have been put forward for women that just didn't sell. I'm against the portrayal of women in games like Duke Nukem, but that's really as far as this cause needs to go. The controversy behind CDPR's Cyberpunk trailer is proof that feminism is becoming far too touchy in the industry.[/QUOTE] I reckon Duke is fine because it doesn't portray it seriously. The polar opposite, really. Though Forever was a bit gross, in the earlier ones I reckon it was fine.
i think Sarkeesian missed a large point in her first movie, if you seriously need someone locked up, trap that asshole in a large crystal or stone, it's a basic evil-person thought-process. i mean ganondorf trapped zelda in a crystal because he needed that tri-force piece to rule the world, what was he gonna do? let the girl who's already obviously a fucking ninja disappear again? also the reason link was never trapped in a crystal was because ganon didn't know who the fuck he was or that he had a tri-force piece as well. isn't it a normal trope that the main villain always under-estimates the hero by throwing him in shitty traps that have a 1% chance of killing him? this kind of shit is normal for any genre, its not exclusive to video-games.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;39883252]The thing is, Tropes vs Women really has no point. "Lots of teenage and young adult gamers play our games. We should add hot women into these games to make them appeal to this audience." It's not really a hard problem to figure out.[/QUOTE] It's kind of insulting that developers feel this way. I didn't buy Mass Effect 2 because of Miranda's boobs, I bought it because it's a good game. It's been taken too far in my opinion, and I'm glad people are forcing the issue.
Posting her bullying online was the smartest thing Anita could've possibly done for her cause.
What was this fuss about anyway? Why did people get so angry about this?
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;39885018]What was this fuss about anyway? Why did people get so angry about this?[/QUOTE] games + women + internet communities =
[QUOTE=UnknownDude;39885018]What was this fuss about anyway? Why did people get so angry about this?[/QUOTE] They thought somebody questioning the role of women in games was an attack on games in general.
[QUOTE=omggrass;39884957]i think Sarkeesian missed a large point in her first movie, if you seriously need someone locked up, trap that asshole in a large crystal or stone, it's a basic evil-person thought-process. i mean ganondorf trapped zelda in a crystal because he needed that tri-force piece to rule the world, what was he gonna do? let the girl who's already obviously a fucking ninja disappear again? also the reason link was never trapped in a crystal was because ganon didn't know who the fuck he was or that he had a tri-force piece as well. isn't it a normal trope that the main villain always under-estimates the hero by throwing him in shitty traps that have a 1% chance of killing him? this kind of shit is normal for any genre, its not exclusive to video-games.[/QUOTE] can you name a mainstream game where the entire point of the game was for a female character to rescue a completely passive male character?
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;39885003]Posting her bullying online was the smartest thing Anita could've possibly done for her cause.[/QUOTE] Instead of calling it bullying can we call it what it actually was, death and rape threats (with some bullying too)
Somewhere, I read that a good female character can be genderbent without the character's personality changing too much aside from obvious physical quirks. Alyx Vance comes to mind. So does Liara T'Soni. Genderbend them and tell me; would they be any different if they were male to begin with?
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;39883224]Since when did someone's opinion become news? And isn't Cliffy who also said that PC is a dead platform full of only pirates?[/QUOTE] well he made some good points I agree with. The problem is I find that people who make games probably find this hole business of addressing sexist female tropes and what not is entirely optional so these video's may not achieve anything but its worth a shot for teaching some gamer's and perhaps developers about the situation.
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