North Korean economy mysteriously growing, baffling experts - Polidicks

[quote]When tanks rolled down Kim Il Sung Square in Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea on 10 October, the image given to the rest of the world was one of business as usual in the isolated country. However, away from the bombast and sabre-rattling, a change is simmering at the very heart of the North Korean state and an economy once driven by a tightly-controlled communist command economy, largely synonymous with rationing and material deprivation. Though not officially acknowledged, a "grey economy" has evolved over the past two decades, a development that has accelerated under leader Kim Jong Un, experts say. The Pothonggang department store, opened by the late Kim Jong-il in December 2010, is an illustration of the marked changes taking place. The nondescript shop situated down a back road in the capital sells everything from flat screen TVs to sports goods and imported wine. Significantly, the goods are priced in US dollars, Chinese yuan and North Korean won - at a black market rate of 8,400 won to the dollar.[/quote] [url]http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/north-korea-black-economy-swelling-disposable-incomes-1526324[/url] [url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/29/us-northkorea-change-insight-idUSKCN0SN00320151029[/url] [quote]Shoppers openly slapped down large stacks of U.S. dollars at the cashier's counter. They received change in dollars, Chinese yuan or North Korean won - at the black market rate. The same was true elsewhere in the capital: taxi drivers offered change for fares at black market rates, as did other shops and street stalls that Reuters visited. For the last twenty years, North Korea has been undergoing economic changes, the fruits of which are now more visible than ever in the capital, Pyongyang, where large North Korean companies now produce a diverse range of domestically made goods to cater to this growing market of consumers. People are spending money they once hid in their homes on mobile phones, electric bicycles and baby carriers.[/quote] Ever since Kim Jong-Un came to power, he's implicitly accepted the existence of the black markets and allowed them to operate with decreasing restrictions. One of the results has been the growth of a tiny middle class in Pyongyang and economic development in some parts of the country (although most of it remains still little better off than ten years ago). The big oddity however is that they used to get loads of cash from selling China things like coal, but with prices down and massive sanctions they still seem to be getting money somehow. Wealth and economic development is slowly advancing, much of it now driven by what is effectively a market economy.

I guess those produce stands have actual produce now, not cardboard and styrofoam.

well when you're at the bottom the only way to go is up helps that they border an economic superpower too

oh look, ANOTHER sobotnik thread about a random "communist" country. :v: [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Wizards Court;49018501]oh look, ANOTHER sobotnik thread about a random [b]"[/b]communist[b]"[/b] country. :v:[/QUOTE] Are you trying to imply that North Korea isn't a communist country? Its political ideology was described in its own propaganda as the "most effective revolutionary theoretical structure that leads to the future of communist society." Until 2009, the constitution of North Korea compared its official political ideology to communism. Even now that its mention in the constitution has been omitted, it is still at the least an oppressive socialist country. This is very much an interesting topic. It's strange to see that the black market is being allowed to flourish in the way it is, and even stranger to see people who can afford what's being sold. Like, that is some seriously exorbitant stuff, the official government rate is ₩105:$1 (in reality, ₩105 = about 12 cents). The black market rate is literally 80 times that. Crazy stuff.

[QUOTE=Flicky;49018626]Are you trying to imply that North Korea isn't a communist country? Its political ideology was described in its own propaganda as the "most effective revolutionary theoretical structure that leads to the future of communist society." Until 2009, the constitution of North Korea compared its official political ideology to communism. Even now that its mention in the constitution has been omitted, it is still at the least an oppressive socialist country. This is very much an interesting topic. It's strange to see that the black market is being allowed to flourish in the way it is, and even stranger to see people who can afford what's being sold. Like, that is some seriously exorbitant stuff, the official government rate is ₩105:$1 (in reality, ₩105 = about 12 cents). The black market rate is literally 80 times that. Crazy stuff.[/QUOTE] Right and DPRK Stands for Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. This means that it is also Democratic because they say they are.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;49018669]Right and DPRK Stands for Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. This means that it is also Democratic because they say they are.[/QUOTE] A lot of their economy revolved around communism and socialism. How can you deny this?

[QUOTE=proboardslol;49018669]Right and DPRK Stands for Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. This means that it is also Democratic because they say they are.[/QUOTE] So what you are implying is that it's a monarchy, yes?

Probably making money producing goods to export to china with slaveish labor It's no secret that the boarder between China and NK is more pourus than the US Mexican one, goods already flow into NK, its not inconceivable that somebody is making money on that stuff It also could be that they're gaming the official exchange rates

I'm not surpised because the thing about Communist countries like this is your given a job, the goverement controls production and everything else so if the market dives you aren't really affected e.g china's case they built massive cities to keep their economy running however they had to make a lot of loans for this as well which wasn't the best choice. And whats worest is those cities don't have people living in them, you would think they would of said this is your house your building, this is your shop your building and so on. I'd say the incentive to move would of been very high for those living on land that they aren't official allowed to live on.

[QUOTE=Passing;49018839]I'm not surpised because the thing about Communist countries like this is your given a job, the goverement controls production and everything else so if the market dives you aren't really affected e.g china's case they built massive cities to keep their economy running however they had to make a lot of loans for this as well which wasn't the best choice. And whats worest is those cities don't have people living in them, you would think they would of said this is your house your building, this is your shop your building and so on. I'd say the incentive to move would of been very high for those living on land that they aren't official allowed to live on.[/QUOTE] Are these sentences or just random words

[QUOTE=UberMunchkin;49018857]IIRC some fabric work, and other tat which is the equivalent of the western world's 'made in China' are outsourced to North Korea, but I'm not sure how else NK gets money.[/QUOTE] they might also be doing immigrant labor, like people leave to go work in the chinese factories along the NK boarder and send the money back, i'm sure chinese factories would love to use undocumented illegal workers because they don't even have to pay them competitively

I wonder if they're still manufacturing drugs to export abroad.

aren't north korea the biggest producers of meth?

if only Rayhalo was still here to see this...

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;49018799]So what you are implying is that it's a monarchy, yes?[/QUOTE] It's a failed state with economic and political/ideological structures that can't be adequately defined within even the broadest understandings of modern terms. Politically, it's as close to hereditary monarchy as it can get without calling itself one.

Yeah seriously I'm just gonna guess they've gotten better at exporting drugs.

[QUOTE=UberMunchkin;49018857]IIRC some fabric work, and other tat which is the equivalent of the western world's 'made in China' are outsourced to North Korea, but I'm not sure how else NK gets money.[/QUOTE]They export slave labour to mainly Russia and China, and then there's the aforementioned drug manufacturing. [URL]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34664440[/URL]

Oh man, north korean mafia sounds like a possible future, and a good cyberpunk villain.

[QUOTE=gudman;49019591]It's a failed state with economic and political/ideological structures that can't be adequately defined within even the broadest understandings of modern terms. Politically, it's as close to hereditary monarchy as it can get without calling itself one.[/QUOTE] This is true, also DPRK arent communist, or even socialist by any standards. They are a terrible country with a tiny ruling class that wants to stay rich. That's it.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;49018799]So what you are implying is that it's a monarchy, yes?[/QUOTE] Monarchy and Socialism really boil down to one in practice

[QUOTE=T553412;49019546]if only Rayhalo was still here to see this...[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure he is unbanned by now

North Korea follows their own ideology,called Juche. God knows what the fuck it is,but the closest thing that resembles it,in my opinion,is national "socialism". Aka they are very heavily into ethnic purity and all that crap.

[QUOTE=Wizards Court;49018501]oh look, ANOTHER sobotnik thread about a random "communist" country. :v:[/QUOTE] north korea is more of a monarchy with quasi-market economy these days it's about as communist as china these days, in that all of the hammer symbols they have and music they play serves more as window dressing than anything else [QUOTE=NeverGoWest;49020033]This is true, also DPRK arent communist, or even socialist by any standards. They are a terrible country with a tiny ruling class that wants to stay rich. That's it.[/QUOTE] socialism in north korea died in the early 1990s (same as in cuba) when their benefactors (the ussr) collapsed and stopping sending them free shit the result was a mixture of economic collapse and famine that in north korea (and many other former communist states) only stopped after black markets grew and developed to constitute most of the actual functioning economy, making it increasingly a market economy in practice.

[QUOTE=Flicky;49018626]Are you trying to imply that North Korea isn't a communist country? Its political ideology was described in its own propaganda as the "most effective revolutionary theoretical structure that leads to the future of communist society." Until 2009, the constitution of North Korea compared its official political ideology to communism. Even now that its mention in the constitution has been omitted, it is still at the least an oppressive socialist country. This is very much an interesting topic. It's strange to see that the black market is being allowed to flourish in the way it is, and even stranger to see people who can afford what's being sold. Like, that is some seriously exorbitant stuff, the official government rate is ₩105:$1 (in reality, ₩105 = about 12 cents). The black market rate is literally 80 times that. Crazy stuff.[/QUOTE] North Korea had a very...unique path even for a 'communist' country in the 20th century. It's really hard to just sum it up as 'this is communism, it isn't working well'.

I actually talked to my friend about this yesterday. I'm thinking that China is paying nk to manufacture things, trading whatever they can and sending it back to China in exchange for foreign aid

[QUOTE=Conscript;49020858]North Korea had a very...unique path even for a 'communist' country in the 20th century. It's really hard to just sum it up as 'this is communism, it isn't working well'.[/QUOTE] I think people who are empathetic to communism have issue with the comparison because apparently the DPRK always intended for there to be a clear hierarchy. Eliminating the 'class struggle' was never an intention in their economic system, something Lenin and Marx ultimately intended (correct me if I'm wrong). Is it communist/socialist in the sense that the state owns the means of production? Yes, but that is changing luckily. Nationalism is the road to hell paved with good intentions.

[QUOTE=Funcoot;49023191]I think people who are empathetic to communism have issue with the comparison because apparently the DPRK always intended for there to be a clear hierarchy. Eliminating the 'class struggle' was never an intention in their economic system, something Lenin and Marx ultimately intended (correct me if I'm wrong). Is it communist/socialist in the sense that the state owns the means of production? Yes, but that is changing luckily. Nationalism is the road to hell paved with good intentions.[/QUOTE] State ownership of the MoP isn't a pretense for communism or socialism nor is it the definition of it. Italy and Germany under fascist regimes all practically nationalized much of the economy but they were fascist. The DPRK has been working off a revisionist model of Juche, which while originally loosely a revision of Leninism, has long since been transformed into something far different that honestly more closely, in practice and in theory, is some form of weird despotism. It's hard to place because it shares features of extreme nationalism and reaction, and even features of fascism (the extreme state control by right, hero-leader cult of personality, and autarky) and also features of traditional communism (loose ideals of equality, workers' power, elimination of class divisions, and in rhetoric at least some socialist goals on an abstract timeline). But it certainly isn't Marxism at this point and it's a far cry from communism.

I am surprised nobody made the news about the fact that astronauts from North Korea came back from landing on the Sun I mean this is more sensational than NK's growth of economy.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];49024809']State ownership of the MoP isn't a pretense for communism or socialism nor is it the definition of it. Italy and Germany under fascist regimes all practically nationalized much of the economy but they were fascist. The DPRK has been working off a revisionist model of Juche, which while originally loosely a revision of Leninism, has long since been transformed into something far different that honestly more closely, in practice and in theory, is some form of weird despotism. It's hard to place because it shares features of extreme nationalism and reaction, and even features of fascism (the extreme state control by right, hero-leader cult of personality, and autarky) and also features of traditional communism (loose ideals of equality, workers' power, elimination of class divisions, and in rhetoric at least some socialist goals on an abstract timeline). But it certainly isn't Marxism at this point and it's a far cry from communism.[/QUOTE] Ideology doesn't really matter for North Korea. They have displayed a rather flexible attitude towards Marxist philosophy nearly as much so as the Chinese or Vietnamese. [QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;49023061]I actually talked to my friend about this yesterday. I'm thinking that China is paying nk to manufacture things, trading whatever they can and sending it back to China in exchange for foreign aid[/QUOTE] To a degree this is true, but industry in North Korea is pretty underdeveloped and backwards. Most of what they have sold to China and made money from has usually been bulk raw ores (such as iron ore, anthracite coal, etc). Chinese companies have made some nice cash by making cheap versions of consumer goods in China and then smuggling it into North Korea to be sold (such as rice cookers or radios). North Korea gets some cash inflow (I think) by producing clothing for export, subcontracting out work from South Korea/China (ranging from light industry to animation), and tourism. One way North Korea is trying to get more money is by encouraging tourism (they have about 100,000 visitors annually right now, of which 5,000 are westerners), they plan on increasing annual tourist visits to 1 million over the next 2-3 years (presumably because they bring in shitloads of hard currency for the regime).