• More U.N. peacekeepers than ever fail to stop African wars
    105 replies, posted
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/record-number-of-un-peacekeepers-fails-to-stop-african-wars/2014/01/03/17ed0574-7487-11e3-9389-09ef9944065e_story.html[/url] [QUOTE]NAIROBI — The United Nations has dispatched a record number of peacekeepers in Africa in recent years, deploying soldiers to trouble spots such as the Central African Republic and South Sudan. Yet the “blue helmets” and thousands of other soldiers sent by African regional groups have failed to prevent fresh spasms of violence. The peacekeeping forces have cost billions of dollars, largely paid by the United States and European nations. But they have been hobbled by weak mandates and a shortage of manpower and equipment. Some critics also say Washington, its allies and U.N. officials are at fault in the peacekeeping failures, for not following through with enough political pressure to prevent crises... “The U.N. peacekeepers have not been able to stop the violence in Darfur, and so I came here,” Muhammed, a shopkeeper, said in an interview last weekend in Malakal. “But in South Sudan now, the situation is similar to Darfur. It is tribe against tribe. The peacekeepers won’t be able to stop the attacks.” [/QUOTE] Because its an impossible task.
-snip holy fuckballs I was wrong.
why do we think it's our job to stop these wars Set up camps, have a DMZ of x number of meters, let anyone who wants to escape the shitfest in. Done.
[QUOTE=katbug;43412246]why do we think it's our job to stop these wars Set up camps, have a DMZ of x number of meters, let anyone who wants to escape the shitfest in. Done.[/QUOTE] It can be like Escape from New York, but with africa. [I]Escape from Central African Republic[/I]
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;43412275]It can be like Escape from New York, but with africa. [I]Escape from Central African Republic[/I][/QUOTE] Glory to Ethiopia!
[QUOTE=katbug;43412246]why do we think it's our job to stop these wars Set up camps, have a DMZ of x number of meters, let anyone who wants to escape the shitfest in. Done.[/QUOTE] Yeah, okay, sure, because the last time the UN attempted to establish DMZ's in the middle of a war zone turned out so well for the targeted locals. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Turquoise[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre#The_Srebrenica_.22safe_area.22[/url]
Well when all the peacekeepers can do is sit and look pretty then nothing will get done. The factions will just ignore the UN because as long as they ignore the UN the UN ignores them.
Maybe they should write more angry letters and then veto some things or I don't know
The UN Peacekeepers can't do shit unless people target them, I believe, it's in their mandate, and people are loathe to give them more power. It's like the UN in general, stuck in an impossible place - it's derided as powerless, but if it tried to to exert more power then people would decry it as being too powerful and threatening the sovereignty of member states.
Boy remember when the UN was actually able to do... anything productive? seriously why even send them? the only thing they're good at in the long run is moral support.
We should just let everything solve itself because trying to meddle in foreign affairs NEVER results in long-term gains
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;43412996]We should just let everything solve itself because trying to meddle in foreign affairs NEVER results in long-term gains[/QUOTE] It's not that black and white - sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. That doesn't mean we should meddle, though. I vote to stay out in this case.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;43412275]It can be like Escape from New York, but with africa. [I]Escape from Central African Republic[/I][/QUOTE]this time with less Plissken and more constrictors from the jungle
They are [B]peacekeepers[/B] not active soldiers. Your just making them target practice because they can't actually do anything unless they are forced into a bad situation.
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;43412232]It'd be better to just not send men and women into these third world shitholes that are never going to get better and just let them kill themselves off and be done with it all.[/QUOTE] Wow. It would be better to just lets thousands of people die, just let them fight it out, let countless atrocities be committed because YOU fucking think they won't get better? Hey, you've got yours right? So fuck 'em, right? Why should you bother helping them, it's obviously their fault they were born there? It could never get better right? That area of the world is just fucked right? Fuck you. Lemme tell you my favourite story to tell to people like you. Cambodia is a tiny, desperately poor country in the middle of south east asia. Sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam. During the vietnam war, something happened that a lot of people don't know about. The UN did of course, they just kept on fighting in vietnam. The khmer rouge happened. Pol Pot, a guy i think is roughly on par with Adolf Hitler. Pol Pot was a fanatical communist who took power from the democratically elected Cambodian government way back in the 70's. He was supplied with weapons by his communist friends in North Vietnam, and using that, waged a terrible civil war that caught almost the entire country in it's grasp. The Americans carpet bombed most of east Cambodia as well, destroying pretty much everything. This isn't actually the bad part. It was the precursor to the hell that the Cambodians would suffer with for the next few years. See, Pol Pot hated intelligent people, he hated city people. He believed that Cambodia would be strong if everyone got out of the cities and worked the land. So, as the armies of the Khmer rouge marched into Phnom Phen, the capital, they were welcomed as liberators. With in 12 hours, phnom phen was completely empty. Sent to live off in the countryside. Families were of course split up. That's when the real horror began. Remember when i said Pol Pot didn't like intelligent people? He responded to this by killing them. Their families. Anyone who they were associated with. Each would be photographed, tortured to produce a confession, and then killed. Bullets were expensive. Children, even babies were subject to no such special treatment. In fact, at a certain killing field, there is a big tree where the heads of babies were smashed against trees. You can still see teeth on the ground, forty fucking years later. What qualified as being intelligent? Well, any sort of degree, speaking another language, old governmental positions, no matter how small, and glasses. Wearing glasses got you and your entire family killed. Oh, and i don't know why, but the Kher Rouge loved mines. Mines to deter attackers, mines to keep people in, all kinds. Big ones, little ones, ones that shoot out glass. Cambodia is one of the worlds most heavily mined countries. It also has one of the worlds highest amputee rates. But then things got better. Pol Pot was ousted by the Vietnamese after the war. They stayed behind and helped rebuild the country. It was a slow process, but things are getting better. The region stabilised. Help was given. Mines were cleared. 800 people died a year from mines in 2004, now it's only 250, largely due to the efforts of overseas charities. Things are still bad, but it's incredible for a country recovering from literal total destruction. In the end, the death toll was one third of Cambodians population. Equal across men, women and children. Would you guess that this national horror left the Cambodians bitter? Fuck no. They are the nicest people i've ever met, hands down. The people i've met there are some of the most genuinely lovely people. Things do get better, and there is no excuse to stop trying at all. Maybe if America, instead of bombing the fuck out of east Cambodia to settle their grudge match had, say done some God damn peacekeeping in a country that needed it's help far more than Vietnam did maybe this wouldn'tve happened. It doesn't have to even be the US, god knows they are fucking shitty at peacekeeping. Australia's involvement in East Timor is an example of it done right. I don't have the solution. People smarter than me are much better suited. But the answer in no way is to just fucking "let them duke it out". I can not put into words the level of fucking ignorance, teenage edginess and disregard for humanity your comment contains. I can't actually put into words how much this comment pisses me off. Your mindset. Your fucking mindset is what's wrong. The mindset of i've got mine so who fucking cares is the problem with first world thinking. I just can't understand. Is the lives of few for the lives of many so hard for you to get? This isn't "meddling" as some of you put it. This is about preventing a large scale war that is almost guaranteed to be bloody and end up in the deaths of many, many innocent people. This isn't an Afghanistan situation, it's a Rwanda one.
[QUOTE=goon165;43412911]Boy remember when the UN was actually able to do... anything productive? seriously why even send them? the only thing they're good at in the long run is moral support.[/QUOTE] yup and the UN still is productive why even send them? Because UN peacekeepers have saved absolutely thousands of lives thread absolutely stinks of people that have no idea about what the UN actually does, and also mistake peacekeeping to be the ONLY thing the UN does
[QUOTE=mac338;43413010]It's not that black and white - sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. That doesn't mean we should meddle, though. I vote to stay out in this case.[/QUOTE] I think we need to reexamine our approach to the situation, I'd rather we not play a crap-shoot and hope things "suddenly" get better.
[QUOTE=katbug;43412246]why do we think it's our job to stop these wars Set up camps, have a DMZ of x number of meters, let anyone who wants to escape the shitfest in. Done.[/QUOTE] because that's kinda the point of a world government like the u.n. is to prevent deaths from war, disaster, dissease and genocide. granted they have been hobbled on the last one but they can stop this war if they are given the right to do so, the problem is like what happened in Korea they were hobbled by the crappy instructions from the top and can't really do much other than be there to begin with
[QUOTE=The Aussie;43413482]Wow. It would be better to just lets thousands of people die, just let them fight it out, let countless atrocities be committed because YOU fucking think they won't get better? Hey, you've got yours right? So fuck 'em, right? Why should you bother helping them, it's obviously their fault they were born there? It could never get better right? That area of the world is just fucked right? Fuck you. Lemme tell you my favourite story to tell to people like you. Cambodia is a tiny, desperately poor country in the middle of south east asia. Sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam. During the vietnam war, something happened that a lot of people don't know about. The UN did of course, they just kept on fighting in vietnam. The khmer rouge happened. Pol Pot, a guy i think is roughly on par with Adolf Hitler. Pol Pot was a fanatical communist who took power from the democratically elected Cambodian government way back in the 70's. He was supplied with weapons by his communist friends in North Vietnam, and using that, waged a terrible civil war that caught almost the entire country in it's grasp. The Americans carpet bombed most of east Cambodia as well, destroying pretty much everything. This isn't actually the bad part. It was the precursor to the hell that the Cambodians would suffer with for the next few years. See, Pol Pot hated intelligent people, he hated city people. He believed that Cambodia would be strong if everyone got out of the cities and worked the land. So, as the armies of the Khmer rouge marched into Phnom Phen, the capital, they were welcomed as liberators. With in 12 hours, phnom phen was completely empty. Sent to live off in the countryside. Families were of course split up. That's when the real horror began. Remember when i said Pol Pot didn't like intelligent people? He responded to this by killing them. Their families. Anyone who they were associated with. Each would be photographed, tortured to produce a confession, and then killed. Bullets were expensive. Children, even babies were subject to no such special treatment. In fact, at a certain killing field, there is a big tree where the heads of babies were smashed against trees. You can still see teeth on the ground, forty fucking years later. What qualified as being intelligent? Well, any sort of degree, speaking another language, old governmental positions, no matter how small, and glasses. Wearing glasses got you and your entire family killed. Oh, and i don't know why, but the Kher Rouge loved mines. Mines to deter attackers, mines to keep people in, all kinds. Big ones, little ones, ones that shoot out glass. Cambodia is one of the worlds most heavily mined countries. It also has one of the worlds highest amputee rates. But then things got better. Pol Pot was ousted by the Vietnamese after the war. They stayed behind and helped rebuild the country. It was a slow process, but things are getting better. The region stabilised. Help was given. Mines were cleared. 800 people died a year from mines in 2004, now it's only 250, largely due to the efforts of overseas charities. Things are still bad, but it's incredible for a country recovering from literal total destruction. In the end, the death toll was one third of Cambodians population. Equal across men, women and children. Would you guess that this national horror left the Cambodians bitter? Fuck no. They are the nicest people i've ever met, hands down. The people i've met there are some of the most genuinely lovely people. Things do get better, and there is no excuse to stop trying at all. Maybe if America, instead of bombing the fuck out of east Cambodia to settle their grudge match had, say done some God damn peacekeeping in a country that needed it's help far more than Vietnam did maybe this wouldn'tve happened. It doesn't have to even be the US, god knows they are fucking shitty at peacekeeping. Australia's involvement in East Timor is an example of it done right. I don't have the solution. People smarter than me are much better suited. But the answer in no way is to just fucking "let them duke it out". I can not put into words the level of fucking ignorance, teenage edginess and disregard for humanity your comment contains. I can't actually put into words how much this comment pisses me off. Your mindset. Your fucking mindset is what's wrong. The mindset of i've got mine so who fucking cares is the problem with first world thinking. I just can't understand. Is the lives of few for the lives of many so hard for you to get? This isn't "meddling" as some of you put it. This is about preventing a large scale war that is almost guaranteed to be bloody and end up in the deaths of many, many innocent people. This isn't an Afghanistan situation, it's a Rwanda one.[/QUOTE] The UN, and the peacekeeping forces specifically, can't do a damn thing to "stop the violence". As long as the people of these countries keep killing themselves, there's absolutely nothing the UN can do other than declare war on the country, which of course will never happen in the UN as a political entity, due to internal dispute and the veto rights. There is literally nothing that can be done, unless these people stop killing eachother. Other than massacring the entire populace yourself, the only other option is to stand by and watch.
the whole point of the peacekeepers is by virtue of being a large third party they can help both sides deescalate from war, they are an impartial fair mediator, but it only works if both sides want to negotiate
[QUOTE=goon165;43412911] seriously why even send them? the only thing they're good at in the long run is moral support.[/QUOTE] If it wasn't for peacekeepers in Rwanda, the death toll would have been much higher then 800,000- they saved and sheltered thousands of refugees that were being targeted, though they did slip a couple of times. They are there for a reason- to observe the 'peace' and also help in refugees. I mean shit hits the fan but the peacekeepers arn't targeted, they can't do anything- exactly what happened initially in Srebrenica in 95'
"But they have been hobbled by weak mandates and a shortage of manpower and equipment." This is a problem of policy and politics, the concept is still a good idea. Even if it's not perfect, it's worth doing if lives are saved.
[QUOTE=Miskav;43413722]The UN, and the peacekeeping forces specifically, can't do a damn thing to "stop the violence". As long as the people of these countries keep killing themselves, there's absolutely nothing the UN can do other than declare war on the country, which of course will never happen in the UN as a political entity, due to internal dispute and the veto rights. There is literally nothing that can be done, unless these people stop killing eachother. Other than massacring the entire populace yourself, the only other option is to stand by and watch.[/QUOTE] Exactly, even when relief is sent, (Medical supplies and the like from charity organizations) in many cases, it doesn't even reach those who really need it. The faction's soldiers either get to it first or steal it from the civilians. So tell me, peacekeeping isn't working, DMZ's are a huge risk, and relief fails most of the time. What is the next course of action?
[QUOTE=ExplosiveCheese;43413885]Exactly, even when relief is sent, (Medical supplies and the like from charity organizations) in many cases, it doesn't even reach those who really need it. The faction's soldiers either get to it first or steal it from the civilians. So tell me, peacekeeping isn't working, DMZ's are a huge risk, and relief fails most of the time. What is the next course of action?[/QUOTE] why do we have to abandon the concept of peacekeeping altogether? because you say it isn't working?
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;43414031]why do we have to abandon the concept of peacekeeping altogether? because you say it isn't working?[/QUOTE] I guess people don't mind hearing people being slaughtered over what tribe they are in because they don't have to see it.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;43414031]why do we have to abandon the concept of peacekeeping altogether? because you say it isn't working?[/QUOTE] When did I say we should abandon that concept? If you bothered to read my first post in this thread, I said that we should reexamine our approach to the conflict, if one method doesn't work, try another, or in conjunction with our current peace keeping efforts. I'm simply asking this "Ok, methods A, B, and C didn't work. Does anyone have another suggestion?"
[QUOTE=ExplosiveCheese;43414253]When did I say we should abandon that concept? If you bothered to read my first post in this thread, I said that we should reexamine our approach to the conflict, if one method doesn't work, try another, or in conjunction with our current peace keeping efforts. I'm simply asking this "Ok, methods A, B, and C didn't work. Does anyone have another suggestion?"[/QUOTE] Before you think that I am saying you are wrong or whatnot I was merely responding to his quote. People in the US are pretty lazy over this sorta subject, we're all for flexing our muscles in conflicts that get us shit but when it's for the right cause fuck we can't be found. It's embarrassing.
[QUOTE=MattSif;43414296]Before you think that I am saying you are wrong or whatnot I was merely responding to his quote. People in the US are pretty lazy over this sorta subject, we're all for flexing our muscles in conflicts that get us shit but when it's for the right cause fuck we can't be found. It's embarrassing.[/QUOTE] My fault, I assumed that my post gave off the automatic assumption that I didn't care about these people or about our efforts.
[url]http://www.economist.com/node/21556608[/url] a less shit article will this still be a shit thread full of uninformed posters? Likely.
wow sucks to be them but why should [I]we[/I] have to help let them die to genocide and famine im gonna go play blops -Signed, uninformed Internet nerds across the western world
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