I am a flamboyant, Texan, Libertarian who hates taxes, progressives, foreign intervention, FDR, Carter and Johnson. Evidently I don't agree with either party since both parties love foreign intervention and taxes more than sex. Though these two things seem retarded, many disagree. Obama being one of them, he believes we need to raise taxes. I don't know why. I'm someone who doesn't really follow a political ideal because of it's personality, I prefer the science of it.
So I'm going to start a [b]civil and open-minded[/b] political discussion based not on how much of a douchebag said person is, or how stupid something is. I want an elaborated answer to questions such as:
[list][*]Why we need this specific healthcare bill
[*]Why we should stay in Afghanistan
[*]Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
[*]Why higher taxes will help the country
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[b][i]Go.[/i][/b]
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]
[list][*]Why we need this specific healthcare bill
[*]Why we should stay in Afghanistan
[*]Why we should stay in any other country
[*]Why higher taxes will help the country
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[/QUOTE]
1. That specific bill is shit. Either go with a single-payer system like the rest of the developed world or keep your archaic system as-is. It's a leaky dam, stop hammering sheet metal onto it in an attempt to repair it.
2. You shouldn't. That war isn't going much better than Iraq.
3. You should stay in America because that's where your stuff is.
4. Look at tax rates in Canada and most of Europe. Now look at their quality of life. Make a connection.
5. See 1
1. I haven't read it. I'm Canadian. All I know, is that I'm protected, if I don't have money for a $100,000 surgery that will save my life, I can still have it. (Optical, Dental, and cosmetic surgeries are not covered in Canadian Healthcare). It works well for us, it works for you too.
2. Afghanistan is more important than Iraq. Ever read "The Kite Runner"? The conditions in Afghanistan were horrible. No school for girls. That kind of stuff. The UN said that there would be a mission. It's everyone's job to.
3. That's America's business. Get out if you want to. You guys have most of the worlds military equipment. Do something with it.
4. Higher taxes = More government subsidies = Cheaper or Free Stuff. In Norway, they have ludicrously high taxes, and they get free university. All they want. And Amazing labor laws. And free healthcare. The list goes on.
5. Read it yo. People need exceptions. That's why it's written down.
Because Barack Obama is Muhs-lam, and happens to be the Anti-Christ.
[QUOTE=Loompa Lord;19093317]Because Barack Obama is Muslim, and happens to be the Anti-Christ.[/QUOTE]
Yes, he's Muslim and also a being that exists in Christian mythology it's very confusing
he's the bad guy in Hinduism as well
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]
[list]
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[/QUOTE]
i rated you dumb for that
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]I am a flamboyant, Texan, Libertarian who hates taxes, progressives, foreign intervention, FDR, Carter and Johnson. Evidently I don't agree with either party since both parties love foreign intervention and taxes more than sex. Though these two things seem retarded, many disagree. Obama being one of them, he believes we need to raise taxes. I don't know why. I'm someone who doesn't really follow a political ideal because of it's personality, I prefer the science of it.
So I'm going to start a [b]civil and open-minded[/b] political discussion based not on how much of a douchebag said person is, or how stupid something is. I want an elaborated answer to questions such as:
[list][*]Why we need this specific healthcare bill
[*]Why we should stay in Afghanistan
[*]Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
[*]Why higher taxes will help the country
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[b][i]Go.[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
-What we need is single-payer health reform that completely covers everybody, once and for all. Why? Because I don't think your right to continue living should be determined by how many assets you can afford to sell to buy overpriced treatment for yourself.
-We shouldn't.
-We shouldn't. Occupying other countries to steal their oil and continue having an excuse to dump money into the military-industrial complex is a decidedly right-wing goal.
-Higher taxes on the rich will, they will help distribute wealth from the massive bank accounts of an elite few to the tens of millions that desperately need it. It's nothing short of obscene for 80% of a nation's wealth to rest in the hands of 20% of the people.
-It's not our fault you're so fucking stupid that the number of words scares you.
If you did any research you wouldn't have to ask these fucking questions. All the arguments you're asking for can easily be found through a simple google search. Why the fuck should I waste any time on someone too lazy to do anything himself?
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]I am a flamboyant, Texan, Libertarian who hates taxes, progressives, foreign intervention, FDR, Carter and Johnson. Evidently I don't agree with either party since both parties love foreign intervention and taxes more than sex. Though these two things seem retarded, many disagree. Obama being one of them, he believes we need to raise taxes. I don't know why. I'm someone who doesn't really follow a political ideal because of it's personality, I prefer the science of it.
So I'm going to start a [b]civil and open-minded[/b] political discussion based not on how much of a douchebag said person is, or how stupid something is. I want an elaborated answer to questions such as:
[list][*]Why we need this specific healthcare bill
[*]Why we should stay in Afghanistan
[*]Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
[*]Why higher taxes will help the country
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[b][i]Go.[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
- From what I understand the bill is shitty anyways and more and more people are going against it.
-Because that's where the lump sum of terrorist activity that related to 9/11 was based, which needs to be flushed out. We can't just leave without fixing the shit we made or the whole damn region would fall into a hell hole bigger than it's ever been.
- Because we can. Having bases around the world increases our global reach in both times of war, and times of peace, such as natural disaster and other crysis and what not. The US is technically an Imperial state.
- governments make money from taxes, our goverment just shat a fuckton of money away on a stimulus if you didn't notice, you think that money is just going to come out of thin air? No. We have to pay for our politicians decisions bad or good.
- No answer.
And please leave Texas out of this. We don't need our image lower than it already is.
Note: I'm a Centrist. However I tend to agree with the Right more than the Left. Though I try to be as unbiased as possible.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]Libertarian who hates progressives[/QUOTE]
:confused:
Oh nevermind...
all you need to do is study the great depression to realize that we do need SOME government intervention in things - a completely free market society would fail in a capitalistic society as a successful one requires two things: an informed public and good hearted companies; we have neither nor
[QUOTE=Majache;19093701]If you did any research you wouldn't have to ask these fucking questions. All the arguments you're asking for can easily be found through a simple google search. Why the fuck should I waste any time on someone too lazy to do anything himself?[/QUOTE]
also
this guy's got the right attitude
[QUOTE=OvB;19093751][B]Because Germany, Japan, and every other place on earth has oil.[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, cause every country on Earth is a barren useless wasteland.
Use your head. We have a massive military, probably the strongest individual one in the world. Now, what can you get out of placing that military in foreign nations?
Uh.
If you're a Libertarian you're supposed to be about half progressive.
Libertarianism is impossible in a democracy. You can't win an election on a "fuck everyone equally" ticket.
I'd be less surprised to find that the US went to Iraq to stop Saddam from opening the gates of hell than to get oil. Losing billions of dollars in an extended quagmire, tons of public support, and international respect doesn't sound very profitable to me.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]I am a flamboyant, Texan, Libertarian who hates taxes, progressives, foreign intervention, FDR, Carter and Johnson. Evidently I don't agree with either party since both parties love foreign intervention and taxes more than sex. Though these two things seem retarded, many disagree. Obama being one of them, he believes we need to raise taxes. I don't know why. I'm someone who doesn't really follow a political ideal because of it's personality, I prefer the science of it.
So I'm going to start a [b]civil and open-minded[/b] political discussion based not on how much of a douchebag said person is, or how stupid something is. I want an elaborated answer to questions such as:
[list][*]Why we need this specific health-care bill
[*]Why we should stay in Afghanistan
[*]Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
[*]Why higher taxes will help the country
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[b][i]Go.[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
[1]Because having millions of people who can't get health-care and are jobless makes them suffer. And as you know, jobless, suffering people get violent, turn to gangs, and elect charismatic people like Hitler into power. And having an entire nation full of them, without any sense of direction will inevitably lead to civil unrest, meaning it's eventually going to come knocking on your door. So we fix it by finding a way to make people not suffer, making sure they don't find an outlet for their violence because their grandmother can't afford cancer medication. Otherwise, it's just compassionate. Could there be better bills? Yes. Could there be worse ones? Most likely.
[2]Good question. We might end up getting bombed again and the Taliban might come back into power and send more zealots our way if we don't. So we're "staying the course" to make sure it won't happen.
3]Humanity will always be violent. We prevent war before it happens, and world domination pays for the gas in your SUV - plus when you join the army, apart from killing people, you can go see foreign countries for adventure/escape/character building/serving the nation/etc. Alternately, having a military presence makes worldwide stability, and gives us the convenience of not having rampaging armies and dictators slaughtering millions of people in foreign countries, eventually becoming a threat to us, like every other time period throughout human history. Think about it like this - when people suffer, they get violent, do stupid things, and eventually start killing each other. And if nobody does anything about it, it eventually comes to us. Like the Japanese and Pearl Harbor. Alternately we could say "just fuck it", and let somebody else take all the power, influence, and wealth when billions are dead and the next world war is over.
[4]Because if there were no taxes, and absolutely no laws regarding corruption, eventually due to human nature and greed all wealth would eventually end up in the hands of a few, small number of power-holders, kind of like how a sink or a pool has water ending up in a few drains when they are opened, except the water is money and the drains are organizations/people/entities/factions/governments/corporations with power. Thus making you unable to do what you want 30 years down the road when you're picking cotton for Pepsi-Co. That and paying for roads, paying for the guns that prevented you from ending up in a German death camp, and paying for the schools, government contracts that build computers, cars, basically everything that prevents us from returning to feuding dark-age rabble. I think personally that somewhat higher taxes on rich households, and some serious budget reform is due. Cut the social programs, cut spending aid on foreign countries that don't give a shit about us, spend the money on contracts and development and problem will solve itself.
[5]You can write out a 100,000,000 bill to a ten word one - it doesn't matter. If it does what it is supposed to do, or if is abused by who enforces it, then that is the deciding factor.
In other words, if we let people do whatever the hell they wanted, nothing would get done. Everything would fall to temptation. The world would not be a very nice place to live in at all. It would be short, brutish, dirty, filled with helicopters, guns, rape, slavery, genocide, disease, oppression, extortion, insanity, abuse, and ignorance.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[b][i]Go.[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
I ask you this:
What the fuck? Are you honestly asking why a bill that's been worked on for several months by 500+ people, that is supposed to completely change our entire failing healthcare system, is over 1000 pages? Troll or Moron
Because Libertarians think of individual benefit instead of the benefits of society as a whole. Great if you're at individual level, bad when it comes in term of society.
[QUOTE=Majache;19093817]Oh yeah, cause every country on Earth is a barren useless wasteland.
Use your head. We have a massive military, probably the strongest individual one in the world. Now, what can you get out of placing that military in foreign nations?[/QUOTE]
Global Security. Great for a power thirsty country like the United States. If we wanted Oil we wouldn't be wasting our time with bases EVERYWHERE and would probably just take over the middle east on a full scale or just bribe/covertly take over OPEC.
[img]http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8008/usmilitarybases200103.jpg[/img]
We have bases world wide. Each serve a purpose. For example we have a lot of our bombers in Guam because we can reach other countries better than if we had them in the US.
We have Rammstein AFB in Germany as a hub for all our Cargo planes flying troops and supplies into the region.
Hawaii serves as a HQ for the Pacific fleet.
The shit up north keep an eye on those pesky Russians.
We have a base in South Korea so the North Koreans don't occupy it one evening.
The bases in the Middle East... Well. We have been at war for nearly 10 year's in the region. Bases are going to pop up. Plus we need to keep Iran on edge so they don't do anything retarded. Also protect our allys from the blood thirsty dogs that surround them. Who have tried to take them over times before.
[editline]01:07AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=lmaoboat;19093857]I'd be less surprised to find that the US went to Iraq to stop Saddam from opening the gates of hell than to get oil. Losing billions of dollars in an extended quagmire, tons of public support, and international respect doesn't sound very profitable to me.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. The profit we would be making from stealin' their only would not cover the debts. We would still be digging ourselves in a hole.
Us going in for oil is just as stupid a conspiracy theory as the Government doing 9/11. It's not happening.
[QUOTE=Aegis°;19094033]Because Libertarians think of individual benefit instead of the benefits of society as a whole. Great if you're at individual level, bad when it comes in term of society.[/QUOTE]
That's not correct.
Libertarianism is essentially all of the forward thinking of the "liberals" with none of the social democratism included.
[QUOTE=thisispain;19094140]That's not correct.
Libertarianism is essentially all of the forward thinking of the "liberals" with none of the social democratism included.[/QUOTE]
Hardly. Libertarianism as I understand is that there should be little government involvement, to none, money should flow freely, all private organizations and individuals should be able to "do whatever the hell they want", and it will all work out. But that's just a few of many principles.
It's idealistic. But they're forgetting that people tend to be ignoble savages, and that power and it's abuse have no preferences to it's source.
[QUOTE=Jewsus;19093910]I ask you this:
What the fuck? Are you honestly asking why a bill that's been worked on for several months by 500+ people, that is supposed to completely change our entire failing healthcare system, is over 1000 pages? Troll or Moron[/QUOTE]
[B][url]http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/07/14/the-new-house-health-care-bill-is-1018-pages-long[/url][/B]
In any case, Xystas provided a pretty good statement. Sales Tax is fine by me, I'm more concerned about Income Tax. I'm not so far right as a Libertarian that I believe we should let laissez faire dominate absolutely everything, taxes are needed, but taxing a citizen's capital is utterly immoral. If you're so concerned about society as a whole, don't keep wiping their asses like children and don't make the responsible children suffer for the irresponsible ones. Families exist to support each other, corporations exist to handle themselves, sellout, or file bankruptcy and that's their usual death.
There's the moment where I do consider monopolies, but in a Libertarian world, people have guns and vigilante justice in mind. Everyone has a breaking point, and most Southern Libertarians don't mind defining where that point is. At the same time, Libertarians rich or poor believe in a very understandable and very basic "Fuck you" philosophy. It's true. We believe that if we busted our asses for it, it's ours until you bust your ass to earn our keep. Until my congressman sells as many copiers as I do, he's not seeing a penny of [b]my[/b] money and it's because I'm an honest guy. I give no false compassion to the government to seem kind and sensible. I give it to people who need it because the government is too bureaucratic to decide for me, and it's my money, I say where it's fucking going. I also believe that you have that right too.
I don't see anymore logical a way of doing things. I'd take monopolies over big government anyday, as long as we can make our own god damn currencies to replace their inflated ones such as the Liberty Dollar alternative, we're set. If they deny us that right, someone's either getting shot or tarred and feathered. Call it savage, but it's an expressway to due Justice.
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19094322][B][url]http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/07/14/the-new-house-health-care-bill-is-1018-pages-long[/url][/B][/QUOTE]
no, what he means is that healt hcare is a major, complicated issue and to expect a bill that addresses the health care of the entire nation to be short is dumb.
"why can't I casually leaf through this bill on hospital safety protocol in 15 minutes?! GODDAMNED LIBERALS AND THEIR UNNECESSARILY COMPLICATED TEXTS"
[QUOTE=Sir_Theseus;19093051]
[list][*]Why we need this specific healthcare bill
[*]Why we should stay in Afghanistan
[*]Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country
[*]Why higher taxes will help the country
[*]Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted.[/list]
[b][i]Go.[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
[list][*]We don't. Shit works so-so as is. Government needs to stop throwing money at the wind.
[*]It's like cleaning up half your mess and calling it a done deal. Finish what you start.
[*]Russia and China aren't invading.
[*]Because Government wants more money to pay people off. It makes perfect sense, right?
[*]It shouldn't, especially considering no one's really read the fucking thing.[/list]
[QUOTE=Xystus234;19093879][1]...elect charismatic people like Hitler into power. And having an entire nation full of them, without any sense of direction will inevitably lead to civil unrest, meaning it's eventually going to come knocking on your door...
[2]Good question. We might end up getting bombed again and the Taliban might come back into power and send more zealots our way if we don't. So we're "staying the course" to make sure it won't happen.
[3]Humanity will always be violent. We prevent war before it happens, and world domination pays for the gas in your SUV - plus when you join the army, apart from killing people, you can go see foreign countries for adventure/escape/character building/serving the nation/etc. Alternately, having a military presence makes worldwide stability, and gives us the convenience of not having rampaging armies and dictators slaughtering millions of people in foreign countries, eventually becoming a threat to us, like every other time period throughout human history. Think about it like this - when people suffer, they get violent, do stupid things, and eventually start killing each other. And if nobody does anything about it, it eventually comes to us. Like the Japanese and Pearl Harbor. Alternately we could say "just fuck it", and let somebody else take all the power, influence, and wealth when billions are dead and the next world war is over.
[4]Because if there were no taxes, and absolutely no laws regarding corruption, eventually due to human nature and greed all wealth would eventually end up in the hands of a few, small number of power-holders, kind of like how a sink or a pool has water ending up in a few drains when they are opened, except the water is money and the drains are organizations/people/entities/factions/governments/corporations with power. Thus making you unable to do what you want 30 years down the road when you're picking cotton for Pepsi-Co. That and paying for roads, paying for the guns that prevented you from ending up in a German death camp, and paying for the schools, government contracts that build computers, cars, basically everything that prevents us from returning to feuding dark-age rabble. I think personally that somewhat higher taxes on rich households, and some serious budget reform is due. Cut the social programs, cut spending aid on foreign countries that don't give a shit about us, spend the money on contracts and development and problem will solve itself.
[5]You can write out a 100,000,000 bill to a ten word one - it doesn't matter. If it does what it is supposed to do, or if is abused by who enforces it, then that is the deciding factor. [/QUOTE]
[list][*]Kinda like how George Soros helped stir a lot of poor and non-voters into voting for Obama.
[*]I agree with you here, here's a complementary :v: face.
[*]Once more, I agree.
[*]I'm mixed here, but you have the right morals. The thing is, we already have taxes. There are more jobless, and taxes aren't exactly going to make them jump up with big smiles on their faces. Jobless counts from any class too, so saying that the poor, unemployed will get off free gets you nowhere.
[*]Right idea, but you might want to take a deeper look at who is enforcing them; better yet, who's voting for them. The same people who probably haven't read past the title page of the proposed healthcare bill.[/list]
broke my damn automerge
I'd ask some other places, while you're at it.
I find facepunch to be full of people who go "We should stop doing anything with our military because waw is bad" When they don't have a clue what they're talking about.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;19094436]I'd ask some other places, while you're at it.
I find facepunch to be full of people who go "We should stop doing anything with our military because waw is bad" When they don't have a clue what they're talking about.[/QUOTE]
no one does
OP is probably a troll, but here is how I interpret his post anyways.
[quote=OP]I have a massive ego and I think I can take on any argument that anyone with a different opinion can throw at me. Let me list some things I want to argue about:
* Why we need this specific healthcare bill (I'll make this argument even though it is completely invalid due to the fact that this was not the healthcare bill that the Democrats originally supported)
* Why we should stay in Afghanistan (The Dems support this so I have to be against it, even though people in my own party support the war.)
* Why we should keep our military forces based in any other country ("")
* Why higher taxes will help the country (I won't admit I haven't studied economics at all.)
* Why a 1000+ page long bill should be trusted. (Even though most bills these days reach massive lengths just the same.)
[b][i]Go[/b][/i][/quote]
And this would go for anyone that has a post like the OP. Posts like these just reek of close-mindedness.
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