Catalonia independence: Puigdemont 'will not accept' Rajoy plan - Polidicks

[QUOTE][B]Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says Catalonia will not accept Madrid's plan to impose direct rule on the region.[/B]He described it as the worst attack on Catalonia's institutions since General Franco's 1939-1975 dictatorship, under which regional autonomy was dissolved. Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy's plans include the removal of Catalonia's leaders and curbs on its parliament. It follows the independence referendum that went ahead despite being banned by Spain's Constitutional Court. He said he would call for a session in the Catalan parliament to debate a response to Mr Rajoy's plans. Addressing European citizens in English, he added that the European Union's founding values were "at risk in Catalonia". [h=2]What is the Spanish government planning?[/h]Earlier Mr Rajoy said he was triggering article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows for direct rule to be imposed in a crisis on any of the country's semi-autonomous regions. Speaking after an emergency cabinet meeting on Saturday, Mr Rajoy stopped short of dissolving the region's parliament but put forward plans for elections. He insisted that the measures would not mean Catalan self-government itself was being suspended - instead, he said, the plan was to remove those people who had "taken self-government outside the law and the constitution". The measures, which are supported by opposition parties, must now be approved by Spain's Senate in the next few days.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41710873[/url]

Rightfully so. If they laughed the referendum off it would've been so much better, but they have to keep antagonizing them and every slashing of liberty will fuel the liberty tree even more. Perhaps world leaders should take this and the Scottish referendum as examples of how not to and how to handle an independence referendum.

[QUOTE=Megadave;52807817]Rightfully so. If they laughed the referendum off it would've been so much better, but they have to keep antagonizing them and every slashing of liberty will fuel the liberty tree even more. Perhaps world leaders should take this and the Scottish referendum as examples of how not to and how to handle an independence referendum.[/QUOTE] You know, I've heard a few times the Scotland comparisons. I'm curious. Let me check real quick... [QUOTE]A referendum on Scottish independence from the United Kingdom took place on 18 September 2014.[1] The referendum question, which voters answered with "Yes" or "No", was "Should Scotland be an independent country?"[2] The "No" side won, with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour. The turnout of 84.6% was the highest recorded for an election or referendum in the United Kingdom since the introduction of universal suffrage. The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013, setting out the arrangements for the referendum, was passed by the Scottish Parliament in November 2013, following an agreement between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom government. To pass, the independence proposal required a simple majority. With some exceptions, European Union (EU) or Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland aged sixteen years or over could vote, a total of almost 4,300,000 people. This was the first time that the electoral franchise was extended to include sixteen and seventeen year olds in Scotland.[/QUOTE] Wait a second. [QUOTE]The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013, setting out the arrangements for the referendum, was passed by the Scottish Parliament in November 2013,[/QUOTE] What does that mean...? [QUOTE]The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 is an Act of the Scottish Parliament, which was passed on 14 November 2013 and came into force on 18 December.[1] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]After decades of ups and downs, the nationalists won their first election in 2007, forming a minority government, before becoming the first party to win an overall majority at Holyrood in the 2011 poll - securing a mandate for an independence referendum.[/QUOTE] Hold the fuck up. So the Scottish had to -have a pro-referendum party winning a majority -present the referendum act in parliament -have it agreed upon by the parliament (by what I guess was a majority) and THEN be able to vote? Holy shit it's almost like [B]that exact procedure[/B] is ALSO needed in Spain and if the scottish skipped all those steps and held a referendum you wouldn't be saying that!!! "b-but coment their parliament was willing and urs wasnt" The parliament is filled with elected people in both countries. If everyone voted in Spain is against independence, you need to change that (and holding more privileges, paying your pensions by indebting yourself to the central govt and trying to force your way against the rest of the country is NOT the way to do that). And if people doesn't want to do that (and the mere idea of it happening scares half of your production away) (and you don't have any kind of economic or military plan were it to succeed)? Well, maybe it's time to rethink the whole thing and if it's actually worth it.

So the appropriate response is police overkill basically? A heavyhanded response to a problem that the Spanish government should have no worries about? I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that the police have no business acting like they are against something so benign. And when the police act violently towards it's citizens over something like this, they set a precedent that the Catalonia voices will never be heard. This gives the Catalonia people right to take freedom into their own hands. I know pro-government people will use any excuse to keep power, but face it your police are corrupt to the bone.

[QUOTE]Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says Catalonia will not accept Madrid's plan to impose direct rule on the region.[/QUOTE] "Can we have independence?" "Complete control you say? Sure thing!"

[QUOTE=Coment;52808117]Hold the fuck up. So the Scottish had to -have a pro-referendum party winning a majority -present the referendum act in parliament -have it agreed upon by the parliament (by what I guess was a majority) and THEN be able to vote? Holy shit it's almost like [B]that exact procedure[/B] is ALSO needed in Spain and if the scottish skipped all those steps and held a referendum you wouldn't be saying that!!![/QUOTE] You seem to have not read the stuff you quoted. Let's point out the key parts. [quote]The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013, setting out the arrangements for the referendum, was passed by the [B]Scottish Parliament[/B] in November 2013, following an agreement between the Scottish Government and the United Kingdom government. To pass, the independence proposal required a simple majority. With some exceptions, European Union (EU) or Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland aged sixteen years or over could vote, a total of almost 4,300,000 people. This was the first time that the electoral franchise was extended to include sixteen and seventeen year olds in Scotland.[/quote] [quote]The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013, setting out the arrangements for the referendum, was passed by the [B]Scottish Parliament[/B] in November 2013,[/quote] [quote]The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 is an Act of the [B]Scottish Parliament[/B], which was passed on 14 November 2013 and came into force on 18 December.[1][/quote] [quote]After decades of ups and downs, the nationalists won their first election in 2007, forming a minority government, before becoming the first party to win an [B]overall majority at Holyrood[/B] in the 2011 poll - securing a mandate for an independence referendum.[/quote] [quote]The document also provides for the entry into force of the Law of juridical transition and foundation of the Republic and the beginning of a constituent process. The text was signed by the[B] pro-independence majority of the Parliament of Catalonia[/B] on October 10, 2017[/quote] whoops not sure how that last one got in there [quote]"b-but coment their parliament was willing and urs wasnt" The parliament is filled with elected people in both countries. If everyone voted in Spain is against independence, you need to change that (and holding more privileges, paying your pensions by indebting yourself to the central govt and trying to force your way against the rest of the country is NOT the way to do that).[/quote] The Scottish referendum was approved by the UK government but that doesn't mean the majority of the UK were pro-independence. Spain preventing a referendum isn't a matter of being against independence, it's a matter of being against democracy.

[QUOTE=Glent;52808207]You seem to have not read the stuff you quoted. Let's point out the key parts. whoops not sure how that last one got in there The Scottish referendum was approved by the UK government but that doesn't mean the majority of the UK were pro-independence. Spain preventing a referendum isn't a matter of being against independence, it's a matter of being against democracy.[/QUOTE] As a Scot, this guy gets it. And the plan was always to go ahead even if the UK Gov' didn't approve, because Right to Self Determination > Westminster approval.

[QUOTE=Glent;52808207] whoops not sure how that last one got in there [/QUOTE] Congrats for their system to allow that then!! But here all parliaments are still bound by the Constitution, and signing laws that go against them is forbidden. Seems like quite the difference, huh? Maybe the situation is different enough that they can't be compared so easily then...?

[QUOTE=Coment;52808259]Congrats for their system to allow that then!! But here all parliaments are still bound by the Constitution, and signing laws that go against them is forbidden. Seems like quite the difference, huh? Maybe the situation is different enough that they can't be compared so easily then...?[/QUOTE] You're kidding yourself if you think the situations can't be compared. Both are cases of local governments wanting independence from the central government. Spain decided that the basic principles of democracy weren't worth upholding and that force was a more effective form of control than persuasion. They weren't forced to do so, they could have supported a local referendum, campaigned against independence and altered the constitution to allow for it if necessary. Instead they chose to send in their jackboots and try to further suspend the democratic rights of the people living there.

[QUOTE=Glent;52808298]You're kidding yourself if you think the situations can't be compared. Both are cases of local governments wanting independence from the central government. Spain decided that the basic principles of democracy weren't worth upholding and that force was a more effective form of control than persuasion. They weren't forced to do so, they could have supported a local referendum, campaigned against independence and altered the constitution to allow for it if necessary. Instead they chose to send in their jackboots and try to further suspend the democratic rights of the people living there.[/QUOTE] Supporting a local referendum for independence goes right against the 2nd article of the Constitution, which mentions "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, and the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards". Ignoring that and giving in makes the entire document worthless. Altering those parts from the Constitution CAN still be done, but requires the [I]democracy [/I]of majority from both Congress of deputies and Senate. They then present the modification, which gets [I]democratically [/I]voted from both Senate and Congress. And then the basic principle of democracy gets applied by the public, who votes for it. And you want the anti-independence political party holding majority in one of them to go through all that process? And FYI, those jackboots will be there to PROTECT the people living there once the next regional elections are in motion. Because, as much as they dislike them, they're still part of Spain and thus protected by all spanish forces. And that vote will be legal.

Literally the only argument you're giving that catalonia shouldn't be independent is that it would be illegal I never trust a "it's bad cause it's illegal" argument unless you can ethically justify why it's so bad that it is illegal

[QUOTE=Craigewan;52808212]As a Scot, this guy gets it. And the plan was always to go ahead even if the UK Gov' didn't approve, because Right to Self Determination > Westminster approval.[/QUOTE] More like UK doesn't really have a written constitution. Just saying. Spain has a written constitution instead, which is even better but strict, designed to be unflexible, or flexible only if the majority is ok.

[QUOTE=Coment;52808259]Congrats for their system to allow that then!! But here all parliaments are still bound by the Constitution, and signing laws that go against them is forbidden. Seems like quite the difference, huh? Maybe the situation is different enough that they can't be compared so easily then...?[/QUOTE] perhaps the constitution is unjust? it's not self-determination if people other than the ones who want independence get to decide on it.

[QUOTE=Coment;52808333]Supporting a local referendum for independence goes right against the 2nd article of the Constitution, which mentions "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, and the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards". Ignoring that and giving in makes the entire document worthless. Altering those parts from the Constitution CAN still be done, but requires the [I]democracy [/I]of majority from both Congress of deputies and Senate. They then present the modification, which gets [I]democratically [/I]voted from both Senate and Congress. And then the basic principle of democracy gets applied by the public, who votes for it. And you want the anti-independence political party holding majority in one of them to go through all that process? And FYI, those jackboots will be there to PROTECT the people living there once the next regional elections are in motion. Because, as much as they dislike them, they're still part of Spain and thus protected by all spanish forces. And that vote will be legal.[/QUOTE] what's so good about the spanish constitution that seems to have become the sacred text for many people? the constitution also says "All Spaniards have the right to enjoy decent and adequate housing" and "All the wealth of the country in the different forms and whatever its ownership is is subordinated to the general interest" the problem here is that some people like too much being the lap dogs of the ones while they ignore the will of voting of some people

[QUOTE=eirexe;52811043]what's so good about the spanish constitution that seems to have become the sacred text for many people? the constitution also says "All Spaniards have the right to enjoy decent and adequate housing" and "All the wealth of the country in the different forms and whatever its ownership is is subordinated to the general interest" the problem here is that some people like too much being the lap dogs of the ones while they ignore the will of voting of some people[/QUOTE] The fact that it's the supreme law of the land and is literally the only thing that protects the independence movement's right to take place at all, rather than its leaders being shot and its demonstrators gunned down in the streets like in a tinpot dictatorship If you hate and distrust the government in Madrid you should thank fuck you live in a rule of law state where that government is constrained

Illegal or not, Catalonian independence is just flat out a bad idea.

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52811305]The fact that it's the supreme law of the land and is literally the only thing that protects the independence movement's right to take place at all, rather than its leaders being shot and its demonstrators gunned down in the streets like in a tinpot dictatorship If you hate and distrust the government in Madrid you should thank fuck you live in a rule of law state where that government is constrained[/QUOTE] It being the supreme law of the land doesn't mean I have to have a particular liking for it. The government isn't constrained, the police brutality that happened during the voting is proof of this. [editline]23rd October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=David29;52811406]Illegal or not, Catalonian independence is just flat out a bad idea.[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter, at least some form of voting should take place. This would have been so simple, considering no would have probably won.

[QUOTE=eirexe;52811043]what's so good about the spanish constitution that seems to have become the sacred text for many people? the constitution also says "All Spaniards have the right to enjoy decent and adequate housing" and "All the wealth of the country in the different forms and whatever its ownership is is subordinated to the general interest" the problem here is that some people like too much being the lap dogs of the ones while they ignore the will of voting of some people[/QUOTE] I know my post history in these threads might've made me look like a huge constitution fanatic who believes the govt don't do anything wrong, but far from the truth. I know they've broken, break and will continue to break those with shitty laws (lol gender violence, have fun being a man!) that only get approved by the supreme court because they're hand-picked by the political party ruling. Precisely because I know they do, I want the least number of violations to succeed. It's bad enough as it is, and I feel like allowing and encouraging them (specially this one, which threatens 4 or 5 autonomous communities even if you only see one right now) will only lead to a normalization and/or a WAY bigger civil unrest through the ENTIRE country (seriously, imagine for a second that a pro-independence was ruling over Spain and just gave it to them). I liked the "ignoring the will of voting of some people" though, sounds pretty nice considering you took the results of [I]less than half the country[/I] to go through with it, which didn't even reach 50% of yes from the population (and something as serious as it should require more than 50% to pass IMO). [QUOTE=eirexe;52811563]It being the supreme law of the land doesn't mean I have to have a particular liking for it. The government isn't constrained, the police brutality that happened during the voting is proof of this. [/QUOTE] Only two hospitalized and out of millions. Some of those 800 'hurt', at home, and/or due to panic attacks. In comparison, there were 12 out of 121 hurt on May 15th, disallowing a single place of 30k m2 by the Mossos... Was that our govt too?

[QUOTE=Coment;52811646]encouraging them (specially this one, which threatens 4 or 5 autonomous communities even if you only see one right now) will only lead to a normalization and/or a WAY bigger civil unrest through the ENTIRE country (seriously, imagine for a second that a pro-independence was ruling over Spain and just gave it to them).[/QUOTE] so whats the problem if they did grant independence? [editline]23rd October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=David29;52811406]Illegal or not, Catalonian independence is just flat out a bad idea.[/QUOTE] why so

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52811651]why so[/QUOTE] Because it's an economical and political shitshow, the extent of which, most of the people who support it surely have no actual idea. This kind of independence should be seen as the absolute worst-case scenario, not the ideal solution one should strive for.

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52811305]The fact that it's the supreme law of the land and is literally the only thing that protects the independence movement's right to take place at all, rather than its leaders being shot and its demonstrators gunned down in the streets like in a tinpot dictatorship If you hate and distrust the government in Madrid you should thank fuck you live in a rule of law state where that government is constrained[/QUOTE] Just because one part of the constitution (the don't shoot protester part you mention) is good, doesn't mean the rest of the law is good. It does not in any way have to be "all good" or "all bad".

[QUOTE=Loadingue;52811667]Because it's an economical and political shitshow, the extent of which, most of the people who support it surely have no actual idea. This kind of independence should be seen as the absolute worst-case scenario, not the ideal solution one should strive for.[/QUOTE] why is Catalonian independence an economical and political shitshow though the Spanish government has regularly and historically shit on catalonia - why shouldn't they have the freedom to decide what they want to do?

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52808492]More like UK doesn't really have a written constitution. Just saying. Spain has a written constitution instead, which is even better but strict, designed to be unflexible, or flexible only if the majority is ok.[/QUOTE] ya but constitutions are notoriously bad at dealing with independence movements, and kinda by definition if you want independence it means you don't recognize the law anyways. [editline]23rd October 2017[/editline] I still don't support these regions of wealth that think they can leave larger groups and take that with them, scottland wanted all of britains oil and the EU, the kurds wanted to take most of iraq's oil, catalonia seems to use similar arguments.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52811651]so whats the problem if they did grant independence? [editline]23rd October 2017[/editline] why so[/QUOTE] I feel like I'm repeating myself from other posts... But it's okay. Anyways. Out of my head, without fact-checking (correct me if I'm wrong): Cons for Spain: -Loss of a considerable part of its GDP (less each day, but still) -Other communities like Galicia and País Vasco would follow their steps, worsening the situation -Loss of a key airport and touristic point (sure, eventually Madrid could take some of it back and there are more beaches and nice things to see in the rest of the countr, but until then...) -Shitstorm due to all the non-indepentist spaniards living in Catalonia -Assuming part/all of Catalonia's debt, losing more or less money (or they don't and then it's Catalonia's con, starting their shiny republic with a big debt to pay) -Mass riots, calls for elections, (call me paranoid if you want but it wouldn't be unreasonable) even possibility of civil wars Cons for Catalonia: -Also loss of a considerable part of its GDP (more than 1k of businesses have been leaving since it was announced, around 100 every day. Right now it's only a legal change and factories will still work there, but for how long...? That's up to them) -With businesses and factories leaving, loss of jobs -HUGE tariffs to trade with the big lump of earth it surrounds, for products that can be replaced (small productors are already worrying about their business since they're getting boycotted and losing a big chunk of their consumers, by the way) -Not being part of the EU --Losing a part of its tourism (which is ALREADY happening), and not being able to use the Euro (?) -Not having NATO's support --Would have to turn part of its GDP into creating an army --Would lose part of its regional police forces (Mossos), which would lose the spanish-given bonus, and their stability (nobody knows how the Generalitat will pay them), and many already want to go back to the national and civil forces (even getting paid less) due to job stability and a feeling of betrayal from their pro-independent chief -Not many natural resources to exploit in its land, exactly -No spanish autonomic credit (FLA) or european ones to obtain: have fun paying welfare, pensions, healthcare... (which has come from said credit this year IIRC) -Social conflict for the part that didn't want to separate. Best case, mass migrations. Worst case, protests/riots/unrest/war/choose yourself -Loss of a democratic state structure. Juditial, legislative and executive powers go back to the catalonian government. What could go wrong...

it sounds more like you have some personal vendetta against Catalans and don't wish to see them get the independence and full autonomy that the Catalan [B]people[/B] want.

[QUOTE=Quark:;52812187]it sounds more like you have some personal vendetta against Catalans and don't wish to see them get the independence and full autonomy that the Catalan [B]people[/B] want.[/QUOTE] My really nice cousins, uncles and even my grandfather are catalonian and my mother is Basque. But thanks for the revelation, next family meeting is going to be interesting.

[QUOTE=Coment;52812167] Cons for Catalonia: -Not being part of the EU --Losing a part of its tourism (which is ALREADY happening), and not being able to use the Euro (?) -Not having NATO's support --Would have to turn part of its GDP into creating an army -Loss of a democratic state structure. Juditial, legislative and executive powers go back to the catalonian government. What could go wrong...[/QUOTE] The points I erased were pretty correct, but these ones I think I have an issue with. Not being part of the EU is a short term problem. Though I'm sure Spain would do anything in its power to prevent it from entering, long term I don't see them not joining. Catalonia doesn't really [I]need[/I] NATO support. It's no where near Russia, and unless Spain decides to aggressively invade it, it won't really need that large of an army or military support. I do not see Catalonia power projecting across the globe that would require big military spending or alliances. Why exactly would Catalonia immediately stop being a democratic state once it is independent? What proof do you have it would go to some other type of government?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52812460]Spain can indefinitely block Catalonia. Unanimous approval is required for the expansion of EU. [editline]23rd October 2017[/editline] This is 99% the possibility if Catalonia declares independence without Madrid's approval and goes rogue and (somehow) Spanish Military can't stop it.[/QUOTE] Long term I can see other EU nations putting pressure on Spain to allow it. Not saying Catalonia will join in the next few years, or even the next decade. But long term, they'll get in.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52811949]why is Catalonian independence an economical and political shitshow though the Spanish government has regularly and historically shit on catalonia - why shouldn't they have the freedom to decide what they want to do?[/QUOTE] They should. But separating from Spain to form their own country should be a last resort, but a lot of supporters don't see it like that. You look like you're trying to say that this is for the good of the people. With the independence, they're going to suffer far more than if they stayed, at the very least in the short term (by which I mean, at least a decade).