Turkey 'to escort Gaza aid ships' amid row with Israel - Polidicks

[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/55121000/jpg/_55121543__48693347_009946286-1-1.jpg[/img] [release] Speaking to Al Jazeera, Mr Erdogan also said Turkey had taken steps to prevent Israel unilaterally exploiting natural resources in the eastern Mediterranean. He spoke amid a growing row over Israel's refusal to apologise for a deadly raid on an aid ship last year. Turkey has already cut military ties and expelled Israel's ambassador. It has also said it will challenge Israel's blockade of Gaza at the International Court of Justice (ICJ). Relations between Turkey and Israel have worsened since Israeli forces boarded the Mavi Marmara aid ship in May last year as it was heading for Gaza. Nine Turkish activists were killed during the raid. Israel has refused to apologise and said its troops acted in self-defence. In his comments to Al-Jazeera, Mr Erdogan said Turkish warships were "authorised to protect our ships that carry humanitarian aid to Gaza". "From now on, we will not let these ships to be attacked by Israel, as what happened with the Freedom Flotilla," he said, referring to the Mavi Marmara incident. The BBC's Jonathan Head in Istanbul says Turkey's decision to increase its naval presence in the eastern Mediterranean - and not just to deter Israeli operations against Gaza activists - is a serious one. Turkey is protesting against the exploration of gas reserves by the government of Cyprus, because it does not recognise the area as Cypriot territorial waters. Israel has recognised them, and hopes to source future natural gas supplies there. This could spark a conflict that mixes the current Turkish-Israeli friction with the 50-year-old dispute over Cyprus, our correspondent says. "You know that Israel has begun to declare that it has the right to act in exclusive economic areas in the Mediterranean," said Mr Erdogan. "You will see that it will not be the owner of this right, because Turkey, as a guarantor of the Turkish republic of north Cyprus, has taken steps in the area, and it will be decisive and holding fast to the right to monitor international waters in the east Mediterranean." In response to Mr Erdogan's comments, Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor was quoted by Reuters news agency as saying: "This is a statement well-worth not commenting on." [highlight]tl;dr[/highlight] [B]Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said his country will in future escort aid ships travelling to the Gaza Strip.[/B] [/release] Israel won't be happy about this. Their military won't be able to storm aid vessels without starting a war anymore, how sad.

Israel wanted to check the cargo was denied and boarded the ship. I'm almost certain they will do the same even if there is military present nearby or in close proximity. This is bedded for a conflict if turkey decide to protect another ship to Gaza operation.

I don't know how people can even justify getting all up in arms over the fact that Israel boarded that ship that ignored the blockade. Say what you will about the morality or legality of the blockade itself, you can't just totally ignore a militarily enforced naval blockade and expect the people doing the blockading to instantly realize the error of their ways and back off as soon as you cross it. They knew going in what would happen if they crossed the blockade, they were warned what would happen as they approached it, and then as they were boarded they attacked the boarding party, they knew full well what they were getting into. It's like if I decided the security policies around the president of the United States were wrong so I decided to run at him with some sort of replica weapon or something.

it only took 4 posts for godwin's law to prove itself again

[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;32190184]it only took 4 posts for godwin's law to prove itself again[/QUOTE] Godwin's law is a fast motherfucker.

[QUOTE=Novistador;32190041]I don't know how people can even justify getting all up in arms over the fact that Israel boarded that ship that ignored the blockade. Say what you will about the morality or legality of the blockade itself, you can't just totally ignore a militarily enforced naval blockade and expect the people doing the blockading to instantly realize the error of their ways and back off as soon as you cross it. They knew going in what would happen if they crossed the blockade, they were warned what would happen as they approached it, and then as they were boarded they attacked the boarding party, they knew full well what they were getting into. It's like if I decided the security policies around the president of the United States were wrong so I decided to run at him with some sort of replica weapon or something.[/QUOTE] Isn't the blockade illegal under international law ([B]please[/B] someone correct me if I am wrong, it is an important detail), if it is then you can just completely ignore it. International law actually has provisions allowing it. As for the second bit about them attacking the boarding party, I think most people would in the same situation. I do hope the Israeli's don't attack any of the Turkish military, if they do the shit really will hit the fan (Article 5 anyone?).

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190060]You're an idiot. You're basically what the Nazis did to the Jews in WW2 was justified because the camps were guarded by the military. Just because something is enforced by a military blockade doesn't make it right.[/QUOTE] I didn't say it was right what the Israelis did, I said this whole matter of acting all shocked and offended by what happened to the aid flotilla or whatever they called it is silly because they knew once they crossed the line the Israelis would board, and they knew that if they starting attacking the Israeli boarding party with knives and metal poles they would be fired upon. To expand on your silly Nazi argument, its more like if I left a safe allied country in a civilian caravan of trucks with the mission of delivering aid to the Jews of Germany, without sufficient manpower or weapons to ever possibly make it past the German military. Also I informed many international press agency of my journey and exactly where we would enter Germany. And then when some of us are shot we act surprised and outraged about this fact.

Now we will see just how much balls Israel has. Personaly, i'm on the Israeli side.

One does not provoke a wild animal and expect not to be bitten.

[QUOTE=Novistador;32190401]One does not provoke a wild animal and expect not to be bitten.[/QUOTE] One does not oppress their neighbor and expect to be unopposed.

[QUOTE=Jsm;32190280]Isn't the blockade illegal under international law ([B]please[/B] someone correct me if I am wrong, it is an important detail), if it is then you can just completely ignore it. International law actually has provisions allowing it. As for the second bit about them attacking the boarding party, I think most people would in the same situation. I do hope the Israeli's don't attack any of the Turkish military, if they do the shit really will hit the fan (Article 5 anyone?).[/QUOTE] International law, or any law for that matter doesn't mean shit if you don't have the means of enforcing it. As far as I know the flotilla had no sort of international law enforcement escort so my point that they knew exactly what they were getting into still holds. Also any sane person would know that in the situation of a bunch of untrained civilians with poles and kitchen knives vs highly trained military commando boarding parties, the civilians will always lose and your best bet is to just surrender, or at least not directly initiate force.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190425]Except Turkey is part of NATO, if Israel fucks with them it'll be like a rat trying to fight a 500 pound gorilla.[/QUOTE] Article 5 doesn't require assistance in the event of one member being attacked, it just paves the way for it. I honestly can't see certain NATO members taking the side of Turkey etc against Israel.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190425]Except Turkey is part of NATO, if Israel fucks with them it'll be like a rat trying to fight a 500 pound gorilla.[/QUOTE] The USA is 80% of NATO. They would not allow any action against Israel.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32190418]One does not oppress their neighbor and expect to be unopposed.[/QUOTE] Once again, where am I defending Israel here. I'm not. My point is they knew Israel would react like a irritated Bear if they carried out what they said they did, yet they did it anyway. Its like they were betting on Israel backing down or something, which if you really believe your opponent is "evil" and ideologically committed is a ridiculously bad bet to make.

I seriously doubt the Israeli's would risk doing [B]ANYTHING[/B] against the Turkish military, and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't being realistic. Let's think about it for a second: Israel and Turkey have been friendly for far too long to risk degrading their relationship any farther. The people of both Israel and Turkey would never let any sort of conflict to take place (seeing as both nations are of a democratic nature). It would be absolute [B]suicide[/B] for Israel to instigate combat of any nature towards Turkey simply because Turkey has a larger Navy, a larger Air Force, a larger Army, they basically outnumber Israel by a ridiculous sum. Lastly, it simply [B]would not be worth it[/B]. [editline]9th September 2011[/editline] Shite, did I use enough bolding?

[QUOTE=Novistador;32190497]Once again, where am I defending Israel here. I'm not. My point is they knew Israel would react like a irritated Bear if they carried out what they said they did, yet they did it anyway. Its like they were betting on Israel backing down or something, which if you really believe your opponent is "evil" and ideologically committed is a ridiculously bad bet to make.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't be suprised if they wanted Israel to react harshly, then they would creat public outcry against the blockade.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;32190505] It would be absolute [B]suicide[/B] for Israel to instigate combat of any nature towards Turkey simply because Turkey has a larger Navy, a larger Air Force, a larger Army, they basically outnumber Israel by a ridiculous sum.[/QUOTE] And they have the power of NATO (what ever that is worth against Israel) with them. It would be pretty stupid for all involved.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190550]Honestly, if it came down to either Turkey or Israel, I'm pretty sure the US would choose Turkey.[/QUOTE] Considering Turkey has the second largest armed forces in NATO next to the US I wouldn't be surprised if nobody would step into a fight between them and Israel.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190550]Honestly, if it came down to either Turkey or Israel, I'm pretty sure the US would choose Turkey.[/QUOTE] I don't know about that.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190550]Honestly, if it came down to either Turkey or Israel, I'm pretty sure the US would choose Turkey.[/QUOTE] If anything, the US would stay neutral for a while. At least, that's what I see.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190550]Honestly, if it came down to either Turkey or Israel, I'm pretty sure the US would choose Turkey.[/QUOTE] But it wont. You think NATO will stand by while one of their members is dragged into a war with one of their close allies? War does not spring out of nothing and if there was even the slightest hint, they would try and bring resolution to it rather than draw battle lines. It's not going to happen. Who thinks this will lead to war anyway? It's not like when two warships see each other they have to immediately start shooting. At most this will force everyone to be on their best behaviour and along with everything else might give Israel the kick in the ass they need, but war isn't going to come of it.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190794]I didn't say they'd drag it into a war, I'm just saying that if shit hits the fan (which, with how idiotic Israel has been acting, wouldn't surprise me) I think Israel would be dropped like a rock.[/QUOTE] We would more than likely halt any and all forms of aid to both nations until they came to the table to talk.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;32190794]I didn't say they'd drag it into a war, I'm just saying that if shit hits the fan (which, with how idiotic Israel has been acting, wouldn't surprise me) I think Israel would be dropped like a rock.[/QUOTE] But [B]it's not going to happen.[/B] It takes more than being a dick to start a fucking war nowadays and even if the warships did go full retard and sink each other, both sides would be reluctant to start a war and everyone else would be completely against it. It's a moot issue who would win because there will be no war.

[QUOTE=Devodiere;32190918]But [B]it's not going to happen.[/B] It takes more than being a dick to start a fucking war nowadays and even if the warships did go full retard and sink each other, both sides would be reluctant to start a war and everyone else would be completely against it. It's a moot issue who would win because there will be no war.[/QUOTE] This is complete unsubstantiated assumption.

[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;32191010]This is complete unsubstantiated assumption.[/QUOTE] And this is a useless post. What you think's going to happen? They sink a few of the warships because they're Israel, they've gotta be insane. That one incident is enough to cause everyone to want a war which is obviously going to kill millions and with Israel having nukes it's likely to fuck everything up even if you did win. Then there's the rest of the world who will obviously forget all their relations with Israel and side with Turkey who they don't really care for much anyway and not even intervene in the issue until war is declared. It's not going to happen because no-one would let it happen.

You don't actually know what would happen, and while it's true modernized nations tend to try to steer away from war with eachother, no one is saying there is even going to be a clash at seas, but honestly to assume there wouldn't be incredible outcry if either sunk another ship is quite retarded considering how many lives would be lost in such a situation. I would say that in the unlikely scenario that Israel did decide to go full on against Turkish warships, there would be a very likely chance for war.

[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;32191646]You are just spewing nonsense what if situations and using them to reinforce some sort of point. The fact of the matter is, you don't actually know what would happen, and while it's true modernized nations tend to try to steer away from war with eachother, no one is saying there is even going to be a clash at seas, but honestly to assume there wouldn't be incredible international outcry if either sunk another ship is quite retarded considering how many lives would be lost in such a situation.[/QUOTE] International outcry is still a long way from war. If you have a problem with lives being lost in the sinking of a ship, imagine how many would die in a war between Israel and Turkey. I'm using the what if of them actually sinking a ship to show that even if the shit hits the fan, there won't be war. Modernised nations tend to steer away from war because it would devastate both of them so much that they would be fucked over for years. It's not from any civility or treaties, with the weapons they both have neither one would come out of it looking pretty.

Sinking another nation's vessel is far from steering away from war. Check my post edit.

although any naval incident between Turkey and Israel would be highly publicized, I don't think it would do much beyond that. Consider how little attention the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan received.

[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;32191688]Sinking another nation's vessel is far from steering away from war. Check my post edit.[/QUOTE] No, it still wouldn't be war. NK has sunk numerous SK vessels, France sunk a New Zealand ship, Israel even sunk a US ship once, they are incidents but do not force them into war. They will look for every possible alternative but to think they would be so bloodthirsty from it as to jump into war immediately is absurd.