"Fuck off to your safe space" and that's my drink all over the keyboard.
Damn this was spot on
This guys always really on point with his shit.
Thank you camera man for your... interesting positioning.
Jesus, I wish some of the Sensationalist Headlines users had seen this :v:
Anyone interested in Politics really should watch more of this guys videos he is generally spot on about everything.
Hoping that out of all this mess at least we can learn to talk to each other.
But probably not.
Spot on
This whole video is me
He's half right.
The only thing I really don't agree with this whole generalizing "The left are responsible for Trump" rhetoric considering how insulting it actually is to the left, and the right with its implications.
Here are the arguments I've heard that are total bullshit.
1. The left should've elected bernie!
[I]"The left" did vote for bernie, and it was discovered to be rigged by the DNC.[/I]
2. The left should've protested the rigged DNC!
[I]No one actually knew that the DNC was rigged. Everything that was said about the DNC was a conspiracy theory at the time, and it was dumb to believe it. It wasn't until it was too late before we realised that it was indeed rigged.[/I]
3. The left caused people to vote Trump because of how much hate the right is getting!
[I]Really? Do you genuinely think that the right consists of children who vote only because the left wasn't accepting of radical views about Minorities, Welfare, LGBT folk, and Climate change? Do you think it's because we started shitposting on internet forums, making fun of anyone who thought the ultimate solution to our terrorist problem is to ban muslims from entering the country? Do you think that the majority of people who voted Trump were like the high school bully victim, where liberal bullies were making fun of his shitty views and interests, and when he was older he took vengeance and said "I'LL SHOW THEM. I'M VOTING FOR TRUMP. #MAGA"? Do you really think that the right is so shallow, that they voted for an absolute bigot with absolute garbage policies because they had their feelings hurt?[/I]
Trump won because he told everyone want they wanted to hear. He spoonfed everyone fears that don't exist, and promised that he would give solutions to end those fears.
Trump won because he was running against an absolutely unelectable candidate.
Anyone who says that the left are responsible for Trump are either looking for someone to blame or are trying to make themselves feel like a victim even more.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51349779]He's half right.
The only thing I really don't agree with this whole generalizing "The left are responsible for Trump" rhetoric considering how insulting it actually is to the left, and the right with its implications.
Here are the arguments I've heard that are total bullshit.
1. The left should've elected bernie!
[I]"The left" did vote for bernie, and it was discovered to be rigged by the DNC.[/I]
2. The left should've protested the rigged DNC!
[I]No one actually knew that the DNC was rigged. Everything that was said about the DNC was a conspiracy theory at the time, and it was dumb to believe it. It wasn't until it was too late before we realised that it was indeed rigged.[/I][/QUOTE]
these two, to me, sounded like it was intended for the DNC and left-wing media to hear. these are things THEY should've known better. but also, the left in terms of civilians are still not protesting the rigging of the DNC even after Trump slid in and it's made very clear Bernie would've beaten him by a land slide. instead they're protesting... Trump. we still need to be protesting the party here or else it'll all just happen again.
[quote]3. The left caused people to vote Trump because of how much hate the right is getting![/quote]
he's still right about this one. it's not the only thing that caused this but it certainly didn't help. conservative discussion has been banned before on twitter and reddit, for example. censorship and the shame game definitely swayed some to vote for Trump as a protest vote.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51349779]3. The left caused people to vote Trump because of how much hate the right is getting!
[I]Really? Do you genuinely think that the right consists of children who vote only because the left wasn't accepting of radical views about Minorities, Welfare, LGBT folk, and Climate change? Do you think it's because we started shitposting on internet forums, making fun of anyone who thought the ultimate solution to our terrorist problem is to ban muslims from entering the country? Do you think that the majority of people who voted Trump were like the high school bully victim, where liberal bullies were making fun of his shitty views and interests, and when he was older he took vengeance and said "I'LL SHOW THEM. I'M VOTING FOR TRUMP. #MAGA"? Do you really think that the right is so shallow, that they voted for an absolute bigot with absolute garbage policies because they had their feelings hurt?[/I][/QUOTE]
I don't think his point is that bigots had hurt feelings, but that their views were unchallenged since "the left" just point and laugh from their moral high ground instead of trying to educate them.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;51349861]I don't think his point is that bigots had hurt feelings, but that their views were unchallenged since "the left" just point and laugh from their moral high ground instead of trying to educate them.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone on the left. I hate that shit just as much as anyone else.
[editline]10th November 2016[/editline]
Though, maybe I'm not on the left at all.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;51349854][quote]He's half right.
The only thing I really don't agree with this whole generalizing "The left are responsible for Trump" rhetoric considering how insulting it actually is to the left, and the right with its implications.
Here are the arguments I've heard that are total bullshit.
1. The left should've elected bernie!
"The left" did vote for bernie, and it was discovered to be rigged by the DNC.
2. The left should've protested the rigged DNC!
No one actually knew that the DNC was rigged. Everything that was said about the DNC was a conspiracy theory at the time, and it was dumb to believe it. It wasn't until it was too late before we realised that it was indeed rigged.
[/quote]
these two, to me, sounded like it was intended for the DNC and left-wing media to hear. these are things THEY should've known better. but also, the left in terms of civilians are still not protesting the rigging of the DNC even after Trump slid in and it's made very clear Bernie would've beaten him by a land slide. instead they're protesting... Trump. we still need to be protesting the party here or else it'll all just happen again.[/quote]
No, one on Sensationalist Headlines have blamed the election on me, a Canadian grade shitposter, for being too mean to the alt-right when they suggest bigoted ideas.
[quote][quote]3. The left caused people to vote Trump because of how much hate the right is getting![/quote]
he's still right about this one. it's not the only thing that caused this but it certainly didn't help. conservative discussion has been banned before on twitter and reddit, for example. censorship and the shame game definitely swayed some to vote for Trump as a protest vote.[/QUOTE]
Then blame the Social Justice Warriors, and the elite if the censorship stuff is true. Don't blame an entire ideology.
The left did have a part in the rise of Trump, but it's marginal. Like we're talking 1 in every 10,000 people decided to vote Trump because the left wasn't nice to them.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;51349861]I don't think his point is that bigots had hurt feelings, but that their views were unchallenged since "the left" just point and laugh from their moral high ground instead of trying to educate them.[/QUOTE]
Most of their views were unchallenged because they didn't bother challenging themselves. The left watches CNN, MSNBC. The right watches FOX.
And their perception of the left is just "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS" because that's all they see. Do you think that someone on the right would read and share a video about someone from the left being rational?
[QUOTE=TheJoey;51349854]these two, to me, sounded like it was intended for the DNC and left-wing media to hear. these are things THEY should've known better. but also, the left in terms of civilians are still not protesting the rigging of the DNC even after Trump slid in and it's made very clear Bernie would've beaten him by a land slide. instead they're protesting... Trump. we still need to be protesting the party here or else it'll all just happen again. [/QUOTE]
No it's specifically being thrown at people who went out of their way to not sideline every conversation with "but racism/sexism/bigot/stupid"
Bearing in mind that Jonathan Pie is a performance prioritising comedian that's probably why the "Left is to blame" is most of the video. Partly because smug Trump voters and the people against Trump could agree on that, partly because you can make it a strong point.
But he's identified the fact that Trump's election came down to a mix of factors, not just the overdone attitude of shouting down opposing opinions instead of politely explaining why they're wrong. It was heavily to do with Clinton getting chosen as candidate rather Sanders, and Clinton then going on to do an absolutely, god awful, arrogant campaign where she thought she could get away with murder. (and it really goes to show what a farce the election was when I have to point out I mean that figuratively) It is also to do with a climate of misery and anti-establishment feeling, as well as contempt for traditional liberal values of multi-culturalism.
On the bright side, it's all well and good spouting drivel, but now Trump has to make that drivel into something workable. He'll be remembered as someone who couldn't carry out his promises or someone who presided over a period of stagnation.
[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;51350041]Bearing in mind that Jonathan Pie is a performance prioritising comedian that's probably why the "Left is to blame" is most of the video. Partly because smug Trump voters and the people against Trump could agree on that, partly because you can make it a strong point.
But he's identified the fact that Trump's election came down to a mix of factors, not just the overdone attitude of shouting down opposing opinions instead of politely explaining why they're wrong. [B]It was heavily to do with Clinton getting chosen as candidate rather Sanders, and Clinton then going on to do an absolutely, god awful, arrogant campaign where she thought she could get away with murder[/B]. (and it really goes to show what a farce the election was when I have to point out I mean that figuratively) It is also to do with a climate of misery and anti-establishment feeling, as well as contempt for traditional liberal values of multi-culturalism.
On the bright side, it's all well and good spouting drivel, but now Trump has to make that drivel into something workable. He'll be remembered as someone who couldn't carry out his promises or someone who presided over a period of stagnation.[/QUOTE]
Well a large segment of the left (and basically everyone on FP) already agrees with this so that's why you are seeing pushback on the other claims.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;51349861]I don't think his point is that bigots had hurt feelings, but that their views were unchallenged since "the left" just point and laugh from their moral high ground instead of trying to educate them.[/QUOTE]
We've tried to educate them. We've tried, and tried, and tried, and tried. You can see it here on Facepunch. We put up the facts constantly and whenever the Trump supporters hear them they put up a shield of denial if they dont just bow out completely. There are quite a few particular users here, not to name names, that were actually convinced that they were wrong and [I]voted for Trump anyways.[/I] There's a reason that Trump is the feels before reals candidate, and its because despite the overwhelming hard fact and scientific basis behind issues like the LGBT community, climate change, energy policy, political scandal, law enforcement, minority rights, immigration, you fucking name it, neither Trump nor his supporters can bring a convincing argument to the table.
And now the tables have turned and everyone's finger-pointing at the left for being bullies to the silent majority? When Trumps true intentions are flooding through and his policies are starting to form, and people are saying that it isnt their fault and are refusing to take responsibility? You're right, the guy in the video is right, everyone is right when they say that all of Trumps supporters are not bigots, misogynists and homophobes. But they absolutely must take responsibility for whatever bad things happen to those groups that are affected because of what President Trump does and what rhetoric he pushes when he is in office. Outside of just the concrete policies that are being promised to be put into action that will harm us, so many hateful people and attitudes have been legitimized and will be legitimized for years and perhaps even decades to come because of the outcome of this election.
I am (reasonably) ok with ignorance. But if you are educated on how his term will legitimately hurt me and my friends and still support Trump because of whatever conceited reason you push, then you are not ignorant, you're stubborn, and I have every right to look down on you for it. And if you are either ignorant, stubborn, or even hateful and do not take responsibility if/when we are hurt, then hopefully you'll reconsider playing the victim and see who the real victims actually are.
The notion that some rightists I'm seeing have genuinely tried to argue that this happened solely because leftists have been mean to rightists for the past decade sets me off a bit, not that everything about this man winning the presidency hasn't set me off to some extent.
Maybe the left mocks and dismisses the right so much because they find the right's politics to be morally horrific, and comedy is part of how we cope? Some of us try to be reasonable. I know I've tried to be straight with Trump supporters before, just ask, why? But people are entrenched. Most of the time, it's down to sources- this all consuming fear of the mass media has been instilled in people, and now people only accept their own sources that agree with them. It's ungodly frustrating.
I'm just running out of patience.
This was perfect.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;51349861]I don't think his point is that bigots had hurt feelings, but that their views were unchallenged since "the left" just point and laugh from their moral high ground instead of trying to educate them.[/QUOTE]
This is unfortunately true for a vocal minority. People with poor communication skills, lack of patience, or who are just plain tired get like this.
That said, it's not really fair to say that the left is all like this. Just like we shouldn't be saying everyone on the right is racist and sexist, we probably also shouldn't be saying that everyone on the left are holier-than-thou in that way. It's a spectrum. I for one identify on the left but try always to be diplomatic about my opinion and present my case logically, and so do many of my friends. But that's normal - so it's easily shouted over
hopefully trump's presidency will create more conscientious liberals like this
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350062]We've tried to educate them. We've tried, and tried, and tried, and tried. You can see it here on Facepunch. We put up the facts constantly and whenever the Trump supporters hear them they put up a shield of denial if they dont just bow out completely. There are quite a few particular users here, not to name names, that were actually convinced that they were wrong and [I]voted for Trump anyways.[/I] There's a reason that Trump is the feels before reals candidate, and its because despite the overwhelming hard fact and scientific basis behind issues like the LGBT community, climate change, energy policy, political scandal, law enforcement, minority rights, immigration, you fucking name it, neither Trump nor his supporters can bring a convincing argument to the table.
And now the tables have turned and everyone's finger-pointing at the left for being bullies to the silent majority? When Trumps true intentions are flooding through and his policies are starting to form, and people are saying that it isnt their fault and are refusing to take responsibility? You're right, the guy in the video is right, everyone is right when they say that all of Trumps supporters are not bigots, misogynists and homophobes. But they absolutely must take responsibility for whatever bad things happen to those groups that are affected because of what President Trump does and what rhetoric he pushes when he is in office. Outside of just the concrete policies that are being promised to be put into action that will harm us, so many hateful people and attitudes have been legitimized and will be legitimized for years and perhaps even decades to come because of the outcome of this election.
I am (reasonably) ok with ignorance. But if you are educated on how his term will legitimately hurt me and my friends and still support Trump because of whatever conceited reason you push, then you are not ignorant, you're stubborn, and I have every right to look down on you for it. And if you are either ignorant, stubborn, or even hateful and do not take responsibility if/when we are hurt, then hopefully you'll reconsider playing the victim and see who the real victims actually are.[/QUOTE]
Of course there's always going to be some die-hard Trump fans that just won't listen, but there are also a lot of people who just legitimately don't know any better. People do change their minds, and they can't do so without exposure to different ideas, so it's always worth trying.
FP was already overwhelmingly anti-Trump to begin with so it's not surprising that the handful of Trump supporters here were the kind that can't be reasoned with.
[editline]11th November 2016[/editline]
I mean when people don't believe in evolution or climate change for instance that's definitely a failure of education.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;51350170]Of course there's always going to be some die-hard Trump fans that just won't listen, but there are also a lot of people who just legitimately don't know any better. People do change their minds, and they can't do so without exposure to different ideas, so it's always worth trying.
FP was already overwhelmingly anti-Trump to begin with so it's not surprising that the handful of Trump supporters here were the kind that can't be reasoned with.[/QUOTE]
Well then what more can we possibly do? If Trump supporters are the silent type that dont contest anything and stay hidden in the shadows until we vote, then how are we supposed to challenge them or debate them? Everyone is yelling at us for not engaging in conversation enough but if people are unwilling to have their minds changed then what good could we ever have done? I already support better education to the highest.
I do agree with your sentiment behind exposure to different ideas though. Thats why I get ticked off whenever people tell me that marching in protests for "no reason" is a waste of time.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350182]Well then what more can we possibly do? If Trump supporters are the silent type that dont contest anything and stay hidden in the shadows until we vote, then how are we supposed to challenge them or debate them? Everyone is yelling at us for not engaging in conversation enough but if people are unwilling to have their minds changed then what good could we ever have done?
I do agree with your sentiment behind exposure to different ideas though. Thats why I get ticked off whenever people tell me that marching in protests for "no reason" is a waste of time.[/QUOTE]
Even if you engage someone who won't change their mind it can still affect the people who are reading/listening. If there's no one else then it's a lost cause and you move on.
As far as FP goes there's wasn't much more to do. Trump supporters are already a tiny fraction and you'll never bring it to zero.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;51350227]Even if you engage someone who won't change their mind it can still affect the people who are reading/listening. If there's no one else then it's a lost cause and you move on.
As far as FP goes there's wasn't much more to do. Trump supporters are already a tiny fraction and you'll never bring it to zero.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the country is already incredibly politically stratified. Rural counties are usually overwhelmingly red and urban centers are usually overwhelming blue, for instance. There are simply a lack of ideological battlegrounds where ideas can be challenged. Even on the internet, which you think would do the opposite, people stick to their hugboxes and typically just get even more entrenched. The lack of upward mobility through societal class also has a lot to do with it, as families tend to be a lot more stationary and thus pass down their political beliefs to their children (and are cemented by their communities) without opposition from their surroundings.
I really think the only solution is for vastly improved and more affordable education, going so far as to be compulsive for the entire population. Schools and Universities aren't just places to learn about subjects that will no doubt leave you to make more educated choices and decisions, but they also function as possibly the most effective ideological melting pot in the country. I have had many forming debates about our country in both formal and informal settings throughout my education.
I kinda agree with some points of this video, especially with the Clinton/Sanders part. However, I do not agree with his stance that just discussing and educating Trump supporters is so easy. How do you discuss with someone who
- Ignores correct facts
- Uses wrong information
- Is active in communities, where wrong information is commonly shared, and no dissent is allowed (e.g. The_Donald on Reddit, seriously, it's just a safe space - look at the rules if you haven't yet)
- Talks to you via the internet, which is the case for this forum
I think the only way the democrats would have had a chance against Trump if they had a candidate who was able to appeal on the same emotional level. "I'm with her" just doesn't have the same ring to it like "Make America Great Again". Sanders would have had a way easier time, since he was able to do both - use of emotions and use of scientific facts as a basis for his arguments. Trump can't do the latter.
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51350549] How do you discuss with someone who
- Ignores correct facts
- Uses wrong information
- Is active in communities, where wrong information is commonly shared, and no dissent is allowed (e.g. The_Donald on Reddit, seriously, it's just a safe space - look at the rules if you haven't yet)
- Talks to you via the internet, which is the case for this forum[/QUOTE]
The problem with this list is that you can say the exact same thing about the opposite side.
I don't support either candidate, but the simple fact is that both sides have entrenched themselves in their respective hugboxes that ban dissenting opinion.
How do you quantify what information is 'wrong' to someone who has been told that all of their information is wrong all the time, to the point where they're so used to defending themselves that 'wrong' is another word for 'I dont agree'.
As someone who is as close to a neutral party as discussions like these will see, the hate and vitriol on both sides rose to such intense levels that both sides were just shitposting to shitpost, with the intelligent discussion all but drowned out by 'BUILD THE WALL XDDD' and 'LOL SHILLARY'
It didn't help that a lot of Hillary supporters were SO certain that they would win that they burned all of their bridges and opted for the ever-popular 'scorched-earth' policy of argument.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350062]We've tried to educate them. We've tried, and tried, and tried, and tried. You can see it here on Facepunch. We put up the facts constantly and whenever the Trump supporters hear them they put up a shield of denial if they dont just bow out completely. There are quite a few particular users here, not to name names, that were actually convinced that they were wrong and [I]voted for Trump anyways.[/I] There's a reason that Trump is the feels before reals candidate, and its because despite the overwhelming hard fact and scientific basis behind issues like the LGBT community, climate change, energy policy, political scandal, law enforcement, minority rights, immigration, you fucking name it, neither Trump nor his supporters can bring a convincing argument to the table.
And now the tables have turned and everyone's finger-pointing at the left for being bullies to the silent majority? When Trumps true intentions are flooding through and his policies are starting to form, and people are saying that it isnt their fault and are refusing to take responsibility? You're right, the guy in the video is right, everyone is right when they say that all of Trumps supporters are not bigots, misogynists and homophobes. But they absolutely must take responsibility for whatever bad things happen to those groups that are affected because of what President Trump does and what rhetoric he pushes when he is in office. Outside of just the concrete policies that are being promised to be put into action that will harm us, so many hateful people and attitudes have been legitimized and will be legitimized for years and perhaps even decades to come because of the outcome of this election.
I am (reasonably) ok with ignorance. But if you are educated on how his term will legitimately hurt me and my friends and still support Trump because of whatever conceited reason you push, then you are not ignorant, you're stubborn, and I have every right to look down on you for it. And if you are either ignorant, stubborn, or even hateful and do not take responsibility if/when we are hurt, then hopefully you'll reconsider playing the victim and see who the real victims actually are.[/QUOTE]
The way it always went in SH was a clear demonstration of how [I]not[/I] to convince someone
[editline]11th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51350549]
- Ignores correct facts
- Uses wrong information
- Is active in communities, where wrong information is commonly shared, and no dissent is allowed (e.g. The_Donald on Reddit, seriously, it's just a safe space - look at the rules if you haven't yet)
- Talks to you via the internet, which is the case for this forum.[/QUOTE]
This can be applied to many Clinton/Dem supporters too. Within this forum.
Clinton is corrupt, her party threw their best candidate under the bus to get her the candidacy and there's still reasonable suspicion among the public that she's done and got away with some shady shit, or at the very least beholden to foreign and corporate interests. I would never vote for her/the DNC on those principles. I don't think Trump will necessarily do a bad job because it's any guess as to how much of what he has to say is truly held vitriol and how much of it was political maneuvering to appeal to a significant portion of his voter-base. His actions (And those of the GOP) will tell.
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