Nasa validates 'impossible' reactionless space drive [Wired]
110 replies, posted
[QUOTE]Nasa is a major player in space science, so when a team from the agency this week presents evidence that "impossible" microwave thrusters seem to work, something strange is definitely going on. Either the results are completely wrong, or Nasa has confirmed a major breakthrough in space propulsion.[B]British scientist Roger Shawyer[/B] [B]has been trying to interest people in his [URL="http://emdrive.com/"]EmDrive[/URL][/B] for some years through his company SPR Ltd. [B]Shawyer claims the EmDrive converts electric power into thrust, without the need for any propellant by bouncing microwaves around in a closed container. He has built a number of demonstration systems, but critics reject his relativity-based theory and insist that, according to the law of conservation of momentum, it cannot work.[/B]
According to good scientific practice, an independent third party needed to replicate Shawyer's results. As Wired.co.uk reported, this happened last year when a Chinese team built its own EmDrive and[B][URL="http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-02/06/emdrive-and-cold-fusion"]confirmed that it produced 720 mN[/URL][/B][B] (about 72 grams) of thrust[/B], enough for a practical satellite thruster. Such a thruster could be powered by solar electricity, eliminating the need for the supply of propellant that occupies up to half the launch mass of many satellites. The Chinese work attracted little attention; it seems that nobody in the West believed in it.
[B]However, a US scientist, Guido Fetta, has built his own propellant-less microwave thruster, and managed to persuade Nasa to test it out. [/B]The [URL="http://www.aiaa.org/EventDetail.aspx?id=18582"]test results were presented[/URL] on July 30 at the 50th Joint Propulsion Conference in Cleveland, Ohio. [B]Astonishingly enough, they are positive.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[URL]http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impossible-space-drive[/URL]
Shawyer's site:
[URL]http://www.emdrive.com/[/URL]
Paper from Chinese scientists confirming the idea of the drive and some test results:
[url]http://cpb.iphy.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=53411[/url]
Cannae Drive (aka the American version by Guido Fetta):
[URL]http://cannae.com/[/URL]
NASA's abstract of the test of the Cannae Drive:
[URL]http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20140006052.pdf[/URL]
Quote from the NASA abstract:
"Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion
device, [B]is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon [/B]and
therefore is [B]potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma[/B]."
No one seems to be able to explain what's happening. Shawyer has his own idea, and the Chinese scientists have their own, and guys behind NASA's paper has their idea. Anyhow despite the apparent positive results, we should view this with extreme skepticism, especially since it seems to break physical laws (but Shawyer says it doesn't).
I hope this isn't some bullshit. Because that'd mean some crazy crazy shit. 1000 W + some superconductors are able to provide 3 tonnes of thrust, without any propellant.
Quantuum vacuum virtual plasma sounds like something straight out of sci-fi.
This is something like the Casmir effect, right? It's somehow exploiting the random fluctuations of quantum particles to produce a non-zero net force.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;45562653]1000 W + some superconductors are able to provide 3 tonnes of thrust, without any propellant[/QUOTE]
my UFO is ready
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45562696]my UFO is ready[/QUOTE]
Yeah more or less. If it's true it's change a lot of things. Like... HOVERBOARDS.
Let's hope this is real, although considering that this is a universe that fucks us over at every opportunity, it's probably not.
Reactionless drives using the virtual plasma of the quantum vacuum, thus not being able to run out of fuel, would be a GOOD thing, and humanity doesn't get good things.
Please be true, once we get flying cars we are officially living in sci-fi
We're living in the future
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45562737]Please be true, once we get flying cars we are officially living in sci-fi[/QUOTE]
No, as soon as we develop flying cars, the definition of "sci-fi" increases to something vastly more preposterous.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;45562735]Yeah more or less. If it's true it's change a lot of things. Like... HOVERBOARDS.[/QUOTE]
We could be on target for 2015?
Are those potential implications of this potential new thruster tech? If so, then holy shit I want this to be real and everywhere. Compact safe jetpacks might even be a thing if it works out, although it'll probably be years before we get an actual hoverboard, and even then the military will probably have made a hovertank before then.
If this is true, god damn, make hover boards and a fuckton of jaws movies, STAT!
JohnnyMo1, we need you to legitimize, or dismiss these claims!
If the only thing that makes it impossible is the conversation of momentum, it would be interesting if the apply special relativity, and prove that time would be distorted.
I was actually doing some research into this principle, And I was able to show that you could, essentially, leave a trail of dilated time (areas in space where time would be distorted), and either the original object would be pulled back as space contracted to compensate, or other objects would experience a drag like force, as time was compensated for by decreasing the second objects velocity.
All theoretical, but there are quite a few ways to prove it.
[QUOTE=Bradyns;45562772]JohnnyMo1, we need you to legitimize, or dismiss these claims![/QUOTE]
Nahh I don't want him raining on our parade.
while interesting always have the back of your mind that it is a good rule of thumb to be skeptical of positive results when the measurements are at the limit of accuracy.
and also
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emdrive#Criticism[/url]
but this is all highly interesting regardless
Ha! I knew future spaceships wont use propellant!
So how does this work exactly, do they just tape a microwave to the back of something and put a box over it?
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;45562818]Nahh I don't want him raining on our parade.[/QUOTE]
Rather have him rain on it, then hoping for something that never comes.
[QUOTE=MrBob1337;45562691]This is something like the Casmir effect, right? It's somehow exploiting the random fluctuations of quantum particles to produce a non-zero net force.[/QUOTE]
The Casimir effect does produce zero net force though, the component forces are just separated in space and as such can do a little non-reversible work.
I'm going to say I'm cautiously optimistic about this (without having read anything), mostly because there's a ton of weird stuff out there (and permeating everything) that we have no idea about.
Hopefully it doesn't turn out to just hook into magnetic fields or mess with nearby matter, though even that would be pretty cool.
This is really really interesting, potential area for some quantum research.
It's good to see a high efficiency thruster appearing
[QUOTE=Swebonny;45562653][...]
I hope this isn't some bullshit. Because that'd mean some crazy crazy shit. 1000 W + some superconductors are able to provide 3 tonnes of thrust, without any propellant.[/QUOTE]
I think you got some units wrong, judging by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emdrive#Flight_thruster_programme"]the efficiency data on Wikipedia[/URL] you need about [URL="http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%283+tonnes%29+*+%289.81m%2Fs^2%29+%2F+%28326mN%2FkW%29"]90MW[/URL] or 90 000 000 W to lift that much.)
It's still a pretty crazy amount considering there's no ejected propellant.
[editline]1st August 2014[/editline]
Oh wait, it's his site that says 3 tonnes can be suspended per kW. That would indeed be really really awesome, though also very far from the tests currently being performed.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;45563055]I think you got some units wrong, judging by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emdrive#Flight_thruster_programme"]the efficiency data on Wikipedia[/URL] you need about [URL="http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(3+tonnes)+*+(9.81m%2Fs^2)+%2F+(326mN%2FkW)"]90MW[/URL] or 90 000 000 W to lift that much.)
It's still a pretty crazy amount considering there's no ejected propellant.
[editline]1st August 2014[/editline]
Oh wait, it's his site that says 3 tonnes can be suspended per kW. That would indeed be really really awesome, though also very far from the tests currently being performed.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I took it from his site, I was assuming he's referring to his "2nd generation" drive that uses superconductors and some other magic to raise this Q factor he's talking about, which results in more thrust.
Lead engineering scientists at NASA, after a discussion with the theoretical physicists, described the breakthrough to be "fucking sweet as balls".
[QUOTE=Swebonny;45563114]Yeah I took it from his site, I was assuming he's referring to his "2nd generation" drive that uses superconductors and some other magic to raise this Q factor he's talking about, which results in more thrust.[/QUOTE]
I think the superconductors are just for reducing the energy loss, right now there's probably a crazy amount of power dissipating as heat into the surrounding material.
The liquid helium required to get stuff superconducting though... I really hope we find a good higher-temperature superconductor soon. Preferably working with liquid nitrogen as coolant, or something else that's available abundantly.
[QUOTE=Tamschi;45563187]I think the superconductors are just for reducing the energy loss, right now there's probably a crazy amount of power dissipating as heat into the surrounding material.
The liquid helium required to get stuff superconducting though... I really hope we find a good higher-temperature superconductor soon. Preferably working with liquid nitrogen as coolant, or something else that's available abundantly.[/QUOTE]
There's superconductor materials now that use liquid nitrogen. They're 100X more expensive than the usual material but it works with LN2. There's some levitation demonstrations using a disc of this ceramic superconductor, just hunt around and you'll find them.
Be very skeptical at this point, in NASA's abstract they mentioned they will be performing multiple independant validation and verification tests at other facilities. There is nothing confirmed right now.
[QUOTE=zombini;45563213]There's superconductor materials now that use liquid nitrogen. They're 100X more expensive than the usual material but it works with LN2. There's some levitation demonstrations using a disc of this ceramic superconductor, just hunt around and you'll find them.[/QUOTE]
yeah but those require some sort of magnetic field, it's still pretty cool, but not nearly as impressive once you find out all the requirements it has for working
[video=youtube;PXHczjOg06w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXHczjOg06w[/video]
I want this to be real.
[QUOTE=zombini;45563213]There's superconductor materials now that use liquid nitrogen. They're 100X more expensive than the usual material but it works with LN2. There's some levitation demonstrations using a disc of this ceramic superconductor, just hunt around and you'll find them.[/QUOTE]
Ah right, now that you mention it I remember seeing something like that. No idea how I could forget about it :v:
[editline]1st August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=apurplerock;45563307]yeah but those require some sort of magnetic field, it's still pretty cool, but not nearly as impressive once you find out all the requirements it has for working
[...][/QUOTE]
That's just for magnetic levitation though, the property of no electrical resistance is just temperature dependent I think.
[QUOTE=KILLTHIS;45563318]I want this to be real.[/QUOTE]
I NEED THIS TO BE REAL
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