Home wiring assistance - General

Hello, I recently purchased a home and found that it has a main breaker panel and an edison style fuse panel. The problem I'm having is that the fuse sub-panel is wired into a 2 pole breaker on the main board, but the hot and neutral connect to both terminals on the breakers screws. The ground is wired to the neutral rail. At the fuse panel it splits the two wires to run each column of fuses, in effect using just one fuse per circuit, and using the middle "ground" as the neutral, which means I have no ground for any circuits wired from this panel. I'm trying to repair that but the problem I'm having is how to wire to the main panel correctly, since the current sub-panel breaker is a 2-pole 30 amp unit wired as described above. 2 important outlets, the furnace, the radon pump, and the water pump are all running of this fuse panel. I'd really like to restore ground functionality, but I do not know where to start. I feel I'm going to need to upgrade the wiring to the sub-panel, and possibly run a different combination to get the right amp rating for the circuit.

Usually this kind of wiring needs to be done by a licensed electrician otherwise in the case of an electrical fire your insurance company is gonna tell you to go sodomize yourself and you won't get a cent.

I'm not sure i read your description correctly (a diagram or picture would help), but it sounds like its possibly an MEN link?

Sounds like the place you got is really old. Edison fuse panels were phased out of new installations in the late 70's.

Pictures WOULD help. Most likely it's wired correctly to the code way back in the year it was added. Doubtful it was ever ment to have a "Ground". Changing the subpanel wouldn't be all that difficult in theory (A lot of little rules you would nave to know, might be smart to higher an electrician). You would still require a double pole breaker, as it would still need 2 "hot" legs and the neutral for the sub. You would want to size it based the load going on the sub, and it needs to be 20% bigger than that load. Grounding could be easily accomplished by using EMT conduit if the Sub is beside, or near the Main. The Sub Panel MUST have an isolated (insulated) neutral bus bar unlike the Main panel (The Neutral bus is not connected to the Panel enclosure OR the ground bus due to risk of shock).

I agree with FoxDonuT. Also, I believe the 30 amp breaker the sub panel is running off of is very undersized. To power all that equipment, I would want at the very least a 75 amp AFCI breaker.

It's wired as foxdonut says, I've attached a basic image of what I've determined the electrics look like.[IMG]http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u246/rcdraco/subpanel_zps37e06918.jpg[/IMG] I believe I just need a 4 wire, but the wire is only 10/3 going in, which seems way undersized to drive the furnace, water heater, lighting, radon fan, refrigerator, and microwave outlet.

I have gone over the wiring about 10 times, the house was operating for years with the current setup and it has been working perfectly for over 2 months of me being in it. The only fear that I have is that somehow either the wiring or the main fuse is too little for the load. Someone told me that a 30 amp two pole breaker has 30 amps per leg, so the circuit has 30 amps for the fridge and basement lighting, and 30 amps for starting/controlling a 98,000 btu propane furnace and a radon fan. The only fear would be with being unable to have a ground for the refrigerator and 2 outlets in the basement. I found that there was an empty circuit that was meant to take over the kitchen outlets with a 20amp breaker which was not wired to the kitchen. I'm in the process of running the cable to the kitchen currently. I figure worst case scenario I can run the 3 wires on a single pole breaker with the a good amperage rating. Then just run 2 fuses per circuit. I was unable to do that before because there were 5 fuses on an 8 fuse panel, but now with 4 on 8 I can just run a fuse for hot and a fuse for neutral as it should be.

[quote]Someone told me that a 30 amp two pole breaker has 30 amps per leg[/quote] Using a 240v breaker (120v breakers only have one pole while 240 uses two) for two individual circuits isn't allowed. A 30 amp two pole is strictly for running up to 30A on 240v.

It is for one circuit to feed the sub-panel. But as it splits the 2 hots at an edison fuse panel which is unable to ever produce 220v outputs it's kinda silly to have it. I was attempting to understand if it's 30 amps rated per side of my panel or 30 amps for the entire panel. I'd assume though since the furnace can use anywhere from about 2 amps to 18 amps to light that I would probably have blown the sub-panel's circuit breaker already if it was just 30 amps for the entire sub-panel on 120v

I wouldn't advice trying to turn it into a 60A single phase Panel. It's most likely rated for 30A per Side, you would burn down your house. You would also need to run bigger gauge wire from the main panel to the sub. You would need to replace the panel if you really want to ground the circuits at this point. 30A Is low and probably against code for that amount of load, but If you haven't tripped The breaker or constantly blow Fuses I wouldn't worry about it too much. [QUOTE=pentium;43469932]Using a 240v breaker (120v breakers only have one pole while 240 uses two) for two individual circuits isn't allowed. A 30 amp two pole is strictly for running up to 30A on 240v.[/QUOTE] Theres nothing in the NEC that prohibits the use of a 2 pole to feed 2 seperate (120V) circuits. Its just a 2 breakers Built as one assembly. MOST Single breakers are rated & Marked 240V or 120/240V them selves.

So just basically add a ground rail to the fuse box case, get the same or a few gauges higher in a /3 or /4 cable correct? Then it should be perfect.

If you REALLY want to add a ground to that existing box (not supposed to but better than nothing), get an insulated Ground bus-bar, and just ground it via a 8 guage bare conductor to the Main panel's Ground bar. It HAS to be an insulated ground bar unless the neutral busbar is insulated from the panel's metal box. The reason being the neutral and ground must be isolated from each other in a subpanel, otherwise if something went wrong with a neutral somewhere the panel's box would be live. Real pictures would be a great help if you had some. Even a manufacturer name/model off the Fuse panel would help.

[QUOTE=chipset;43385889]Usually this kind of wiring needs to be done by a licensed electrician otherwise in the case of an electrical fire your insurance company is gonna tell you to go sodomize yourself and you won't get a cent.[/QUOTE] It can even fuck you over even if there's no electrical fire.

[URL="https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9sQ2Gnsus4JNkhaNkdodWo0VHNqVFpoMVVYRk90NkN5S01R/edit?usp=sharing"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9sQ2Gnsus4JNkhaNkdodWo0VHNqVFpoMVVYRk90NkN5S01R/edit?usp=sharing[/URL] There is a link to a photo I just took of the panel. I believe I can just ground to the case and just have to run a ground wire and it's set.

Ok i see what they did. They used 10/2 instead of 10/3 to feed it. At Least I hope they used 10 guage. Technically wrong but I don't see too big of an immediate danger issue. Turn the breaker off, and pull the bare copper (neutral) away from the box to be sure it wont touch. I'd also double check for continuity between The Neutral bus and the box it self (With a multimeter). As long as there's no continuity between them just buy a regular Ground bus and 10 gauge Bare copper wire. Easy wire job. Also those other circuits shouldn't have 20A Fuses unless they are all 12g wire.

They are all 12/2 with ground wiring going into the fuse box. There's only 4 actual circuits, the propane furnace, the radon fan, the basement lights (about 5 incandescent bulbs), and the circuit for the fridge. The only real fear would be the fridge being on the circuit. That central bar is normally supposed to be the ground bus, but I did just test it. It beeps the second you tap to the neutral bar and the case, but it goes out and there's infinite resistance. I guess because it tries to ground or something? It sorta sparks before it does that.

That center bar is/was never ment to be a ground. Its wired exactly how it should be. Anywho, you need to find an insulated ground bus since they share continuity. And When you say they are all 12 guage, are you including the Feed TO the panel from the main? If so thats a fire hazard!