• Come the fuck on - Pro Russian rebel leaders say they'll abandon the cease fire because Ukraine want
    49 replies, posted
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/03/18/ukraine-rebels-cease-fire/24948117/[/url] [quote=USA Today]Separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine threatened Wednesday to abandon a cease-fire following changes to a law granting their regions self-rule. Alexander Zakharchenko and Igor Plotnitsky said in a statement that legislation giving areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions special status has been weakened by the amendments. "We agreed to a special status for the Donbass within a renewed Ukraine, although our people wanted total independence. We agreed to this to avoid the spilling of fraternal blood," the statement said. But Ukraine did not renew itself," it continued. Rebels have pushed for revisions to the constitution to decentralize power, but argue that authority is still held by powerful businessmen. A law on granting autonomy to eastern territories was approved by parliament Tuesday, but with a number of changes that have drawn sharp criticism from Moscow-backed rebels and Russia alike. Foremost among the rebels' objections is a requirement for elections — to be held under Ukrainian laws — to take place before the special status can come into effect. A Ukrainian foreign ministry spokesman said in an emailed statement that enacting the special status law without elections approved by Kiev would result in the legitimization of what Ukraine considers unlawful rebel governments.[/quote] And for the other half of the spectrum (First thread about it but using different sources, I also didn't search because honestly I thought this would have been talked about more): [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456405[/url]
Here we go again...
We know Russians are retarded, nothing new [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism/shitposting" - Gurant))[/highlight] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism/shitposting" - Gurant))[/highlight]
Their, "reasoning," is so thin, it's like watching a bad actor try out for a play and while they're reading lines off the paper in their hands in monotone, Mother is in the crowd and is the only one clapping when they're done.
"what do you mean this has to be done democratically" Assholes.
Wow, Putin's got his hand so far up their ass that he can use them as puppets.
Late thread, [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456405[/url] Also, you people should realise that this is violating Minsk agreements. Whenever you like it or not.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47347945]Late thread, [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456405[/url] Also, you people should realise that this is violating Minsk agreements. Whenever you like it or not.[/QUOTE] How is it violating Minsk? You're not exactly an unbiased source - maybe you're right, but I'm not going to just take your word for it. What [i]specific[/i] provisions of the Minsk Protocol is being violated, and by who? Edit: For reference, [url=http://www.osce.org/ru/home/123258?download=true]here is the official document[/url], and [url=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=91e_1410100704]here is an English translation[/url]. It's blatantly clear that the elections were agreed to be held under existing Ukrainian law.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47347945]Late thread, [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456405[/url] Also, you people should realise that this is violating Minsk agreements. Whenever you like it or not.[/QUOTE] Aw fuck.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;47347963]How is it violating Minsk? You're not exactly an unbiased source - maybe you're right, but I'm not going to just take your word for it. What [i]specific[/i] provisions of the Minsk Protocol is being violated, and by who?[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_II#Measures[/url] Fourth and Twelveth one - [quote][B]On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts,"[/B] and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law. [B]Without delays[/B], but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.[/quote] [quote]based on the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts",[B] all questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.[/B] Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.[/quote] Basically, they should've had dialogue over bills like, ten days ago rather than quickly pull them out without any conslultation yesterday (they missed 30 days deadline btw) Ofcourse rebels won't accept terms that were not negotiated with them. Istead they are getting faced with ultimatum that calls for them to simply surrender their territories to ukranian forces in order to "provide security to elections". Why a fuck would they? Also, official document you're citing is outdated by Minsk 2 agreements.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47347945]Late thread, [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456405[/url] Also, you people should realise that this is violating Minsk agreements. Whenever you like it or not.[/QUOTE] [quote=Wikipedia's listing of the Minsk II Agreement]The full text of the agreement is as follows:[23][24] 1 Immediate and full ceasefire in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine and its strict fulfilment as of 00:00 midnight EET on 15 February 2015. 2 Pull-out of all heavy weapons by both sides to equal distance with the aim of creation of a security zone on minimum 50 kilometres (31 mi) apart for artillery of 100mm calibre or more, and a security zone of 70 kilometres (43 mi) for multiple rocket launchers (MRLS) and 140 kilometres (87 mi) for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch, and Tochka U tactical missile systems: for Ukrainian troops, from actual line of contact; for armed formations of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, from the contact line in accordance with the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014 The pullout of the above-mentioned heavy weapons must start no later than the second day after the start of the ceasefire and finish within 14 days. This process will be assisted by OSCE with the support of the Trilateral Contact Group. 3 Effective monitoring and verification of ceasefire regime and pullout of heavy weapons by OSCE will be provided from the first day of pullout, using all necessary technical means such as satellites, drones, radio-location systems etc. [b]4 On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law. Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.[/b] 5 Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine. [b]6 Provide release and exchange of all hostages and illegally held persons, based on the principle of "all for all". This process has to end – at the latest – on the fifth day after the pullout (of weapons).[/b] 7 Provide safe access, delivery, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid to the needy, based on an international mechanism. 8 Define the modalities of a full restoration of social and economic connections, including social transfers, such as payments of pensions and other payments (income and revenue, timely payment of communal bills, restoration of tax payments within the framework of Ukrainian legal field). With this aim, Ukraine will restore management over the segment of its banking system in the districts affected by the conflict, and possibly, an international mechanism will be established to ease such transactions. 9 Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. 10 Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups. [b] 11 Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with a new constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralisation (taking into account peculiarities of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, agreed with representatives of these districts), and also approval of permanent legislation on the special status of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in accordance with the measures spelt out in the attached footnote,[note 1] by the end of 2015.[/b] [b] 12 Based on the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts", questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.[/b] 13 Intensify the work of the Trilateral Contact Group including through the establishment of working groups on the implementation of relevant aspects of the Minsk agreements. They will reflect the composition of the Trilateral Contact Group. Notes [b]^The following measures are to be included in the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts": * Freedom from punishment, harassment, and discrimination of persons connected with the events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts * Right of language self-determination * Participation of local self-government in the appointment of the heads of prosecutors' offices and courts in the particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts * The possibility for central executive bodies to conclude agreements with relevant local authorities on economic, social, and cultural development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts * The state will provide support for the socio-economic development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts * Assistance from central executive bodies for cross-border cooperation by particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts with regions of the Russian Federation * The freedom to create people's militia units by decision of local councils to maintain public order in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts * The powers of local council deputies and officials, elected in early elections, appointed by the Verkhovna Rada according to this law, cannot be prematurely terminated[/b] Signatories The document was signed by:[23] Swiss diplomat and OSCE representative [b]Heidi Tagliavini[/b] Former president of Ukraine and Ukrainian representative [b]Leonid Kuchma[/b] Russian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russian representative [b]Mikhail Zurabov[/b] DPR and LPR leaders [b]Alexander Zakharchenko and Igor Plotnitsky[/b] [/quote] So if there is anything I'm getting is that the DPR and LPR representatives don't know how to read.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47348070]So if there is anything I'm getting is that the DPR and LPR representatives don't know how to read.[/QUOTE] Neither can Ukranian Rada apparently.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47348090]Neither can Ukranian Rada apparently.[/QUOTE] Oh wow 6 extra days, lets go back to war. Seriously? [QUOTE=karimatrix;47348030]Ofcourse rebels won't accept terms that were not negotiated with them. Istead they are getting faced with ultimatum that calls for them to simply surrender their territories to ukranian forces in order to "provide security to elections". Why a fuck would they? [/QUOTE] Give it a read again, because it doesn't say anything like that at all.
Ukrainians broke the terms of agreements, can't blame the rebels here.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47348120]Oh wow 6 extra days, lets go back to war. Seriously?[/QUOTE] How about negleting requirments regarding dialogue in contact group and Ultimatum request for free drive of ukranian military in rebel territories to monitor elections while Minsk agreements clearly state this role is on OSCE? Yeah, Seriously?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47348149]Ukrainians broke the terms of agreements, can't blame the rebels here.[/QUOTE] By doing what the agreement said, save for the 6 extra days the Rada took to pass these laws that only now Alexander and Igor say aren't in accordance? [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=karimatrix;47348153]How about negleting requirments regarding dialogue in contact group and Ultimatum request for free drive of ukranian military in rebel territories to monitor elections while Minsk agreements clearly state this role is on OSCE? Yeah, Seriously?[/QUOTE] Are you just saying things or do you have proof. Oh, you're just not fucking reading it right. Yeah, it says the Ukrainian military are to take control of the whole Ukrainian border, which includes Donetsk and Lugansk, but only after Constitutional reform is enacted. [quote]9 Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, [b]on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11[/b] – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.[/quote] [quote]11 Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with a new constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralisation (taking into account peculiarities of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, agreed with representatives of these districts), and also approval of permanent legislation on the special status of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in accordance with the measures spelt out in the attached footnote,[note 1] by the end of 2015.[/quote] And then this goes back to the approval of special status laws, Donetsk and Lugansk will be considered part of Ukraine till their status is solidified with a local vote on autonomy, which then Ukraine would have to respect.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47348161]By doing what the agreement said, save for the 6 extra days the Rada took to pass these laws that only now Alexander and Igor say aren't in accordance? [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] Are you just saying things or do you have proof. Oh, you're just not fucking reading it right. Yeah, it says the Ukrainian military are to take control of the whole Ukrainian border, which includes Donetsk and Lugansk, but only after Constitutional reform is enacted. And then this goes back to the approval of special status laws, Donetsk and Lugansk will be considered part of Ukraine till their status is solidified with a local vote on autonomy, which then Ukraine would have to respect.[/QUOTE] Now look at this part: [quote]Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start [B]on the first day after the local election[/B][/quote] And add to this claims of Kiev that "they are going to negotiate only with leaders elected in accordance to Ukranian Law", means that they are willing to have dialogue only after they got control of territory, thus destroying even possibility of consulatation with current Rebel leaders since without passing a pardon (wich is again, another point from Minsk 2 agreements) they would be shoot on sight by enrolling ukranian forces. You think Rebels would agree to that? Also, you keep ignoring the fact that bills rada passed [B]HAD[/B] to be discussed in contact group prior being approved.
I won't add nothing to the actual conversation, but it's sad Russians want more of the land but they cannot take care of the land they already own.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47348255]Now look at this part: And add to this claims of Kiev that "they are going to negotiate only with leaders elected in accordance to Ukranian Law", means that they are willing to have dialogue only after they got control of territory, thus destroying even possibility of consulatation with current Rebel leaders since without passing a pardon (wich is again, another point from Minsk 2 agreements) they would be shoot on sight. You think Rebels would agree to that?[/QUOTE] [quote=Again, the Minsk Agreement II]9 Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, [b]which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015[/b], [highlight]on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11[/highlight] – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.[/quote] I mean god forbid after you're done fighting you might want to have CHOICES in who you elect.
[QUOTE=Fourier;47347730]We know Russians are retarded, nothing new[/QUOTE] Haha what the fuck dude I mean I get that you don't like Russia in this whole crisis but holy shit that's a dumb thing to say
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47348275]I mean god forbid after you're done fighting you might want to have CHOICES in who you elect.[/QUOTE] One more time, how are they going to negotiate questions regarding elections, if they are refusing to negotiate untill elections are over. Keeping in mind that they already failed to consult on bills in contact group.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47348255]Also, you keep ignoring the fact that bills rada passed [B]HAD[/B] to be discussed in contact group prior being approved.[/QUOTE] [quote=AGAIN, THE FUCKING MINSK II AGREEMENT][b]4 On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law. Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.[/b][/quote] It actually says nothing about needing to discuss this part with the contact group, but it does here. [quote=YOU GUESSED IT][b]12 Based on the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts", [highlight]questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.[/highlight] Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.[/b][/quote] So what you don't understand is, for them to "work with the contact group", they have to fucking make and sign the laws to do it. Also, you have a better understanding of what the "contact group" is. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilateral_Contact_Group_on_Ukraine[/url] [quote=Wikipedia]The Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine is a group of representatives from Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe that was formed as means to facilitate a diplomatic resolution to the war in the Donbass region of Ukraine.[/quote]
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I'm pro-Ukrainian when it comes to being annexed but they did agree to make concessions, you can't go back on that shit and expect side X to respect their concessions. Better hope the ceasefire holds and the title is rather sensationalist considering they "threatened".
[QUOTE=isreal?;47348391]title is rather sensationalist considering they "threatened".[/QUOTE] I'm sorry I omitted the word "threatened" in the title to make it shorter, but isn't it generally accepted that when you say you're going to do something, opposed to actually doing doing it, that it is a threat? Honestly that's why I wrote it like that. If a moderator feels it's a problem, please change it.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;47348313]One more time, how are they going to negotiate questions regarding elections, if they are refusing to negotiate untill elections are over. Keeping in mind that they already failed to consult on bills in contact group.[/QUOTE] Who says they're refusing to negotiate? The only person I see claiming that is you, and you have no intrinsic trustworthiness. I'll listen to your [b]evidence[/b] but you've still not provided any.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47348322] So what you don't understand is, for them to "work with the contact group", they have to fucking make and sign the laws to do it. [/QUOTE] What. How is discussing details of a law prior it being registred in rada requires that law being passed without discussion? This is lacking logic. And it's also bullshit because they did not need make laws to use contact group prior to discuss weapon withdrawall, and prisoner exchanges. Also, i'd say bills passed are actually "questions related to local elections", therefore they[B] must [/B]be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of DNR adn LNR. By your logic now that the law has passed, law that strictly says they are [B]refusing negotionations[/B] until election is being held, now they are going to negotiate details of this law.
God you're ridiculous. You can not just do things, they have to be solidified. You can't have this supranational organization have any say so in government unless it's on paper. That's what they did. All this organization did before was bring people to the table to organize peace agreements like the Minsk I and II agreements as a mediator with no real say so or power, but for it to work as essentially a governmental agency with authority, it needs those powers, power's it is given with the laws passed on Donetsk and Lugansk special status, giving it power and authority in the Ukrainian state, which means NOW it can be discussed with on the governmental level. Politics. Oh, and another note for you, the Trilateral Contact Group, once again, is comprised of members from Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and the OSCE. No one from the DPR or LPR are involved with the Trilateral Contact Group.
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;47348677]God you're ridiculous. You can not just do things, they have to be solidified. You can't have this supranational organization have any say so in government unless it's on paper. That's what they did. All this organization did before was bring people to the table to organize peace agreements like the Minsk I and II agreements as a mediator with no real say so or power, but for it to work as essentially a governmental agency with authority, it needs those powers, power's it is given with the laws passed on Donetsk and Lugansk special status, giving it power and authority in the Ukrainian state, which means NOW it can be discussed with on the governmental level. Politics.[/QUOTE] Alrightey then, lets see when Kiev will annouce date of contact group meeting to discuss details of bills it passed, i am sure this will happen really soon cause they must be willing to negotiate vital parts regarding elections, all in accordance with Minsk 2 agreements, and they will not try to invert agreed statement further by new impossible attachments.
Why would the separatists make any concessions to the government? They've been absolutely demolishing the Ukrainian Military and could continue to do so if they really wanted to.
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