[IMG]http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/HT_India_Clarke_mm_150723_16x9_992.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]The transgender community and the family of a transgender woman named India Clarke are in mourning after police said she was found apparently beaten to death in a Tampa, Florida, park this past Tuesday morning.
Clarke was discovered with "obvious signs of homicidal violence to the upper body," lying on the ground next to basketball courts at a park by Tampa's University Area Community Center, the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office told ABC News today in a statement. Officials found the body after a center employee called authorities around 9 a.m. on Tuesday, the sheriff's office said.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://abcnews.go.com/US/trans-woman-found-beaten-death-florida-believed-10th/story?id=32638584"]Source[/URL]
[QUOTE][B]The Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office referred to India Clarke as a "male dressed in women's clothing" in a news release.[/B] A spokesman for the department declined to comment on criticism about the gender reference and referred ABC News back to the news release. [/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/About-HCSO/Press-Releases/Releases/2015/July/15-374.aspx"]Press Release[/URL]
Wow.
That's 6 "Florida amirite?" articles in the past 2 days.
Take a fucking break man.
10 threads is enough for today
Someones got serious beef with Florida
[t]http://i.gyazo.com/7d95dca739d1b057f974cb4a87bad0c9.png[/t]
even in death she was still misgendered
[QUOTE=Levithan;48280253]even in death she was still misgendered[/QUOTE]
"Excuse me dead person whose ID has an M on it, do you consider yourself male or female?"
Gender identity isn't something you can glean from someone's dead body on a preliminary report.
Wait a second, that name, that avatar, could it be?
-snip-
[QUOTE=Snowmew;48280355]"Excuse me dead person whose ID has an M on it, do you consider yourself male or female?"
Gender identity isn't something you can glean from someone's dead body on a preliminary report.[/QUOTE]
Except for, you know, the breasts and the obvious gender presentation. And they had clearly contacted the family by the time they did the news release.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280487]Except for, you know, the breasts and the obvious gender presentation. And they had clearly contacted the family by the time they did the news release.[/QUOTE]
There are, in fact, people with breasts who identify as male. Also, if I was told my daughter just died, I don't think my first priority would be to make sure the person urgently typing up the press release from the first responding officer's report has her gender right on the form, especially when the victim's records show a male name and their sex is listed as male. Florida allows you to change your name & listed sex if you start any clinical transitioning process (which includes breast augmentation and hormone therapy); why the victim didn't do so is anyone's guess.
Yes, because if a person has feminine breasts and clearly presents themselves as a woman it is [I]most likely[/I] that this person is a half done-up drag queen with an exceptional case of gynecomastia.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280556]Yes, because if a person has feminine breasts and clearly presents themselves as a woman it is [I]most likely[/I] that this person is a half done-up drag queen with an exceptional case of gynecomastia.[/QUOTE]
"Okay, well this person's identification card says they identify as male. But clearly they look like a woman, so I think they are a female."
"Okay, well this person told me they identify as female. But clearly they look like a dude, so I think they are a male."
I don't see the difference in stupidity between these two statements... but okay.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280487]Except for, you know, the breasts and the obvious gender presentation. And they had clearly contacted the family by the time they did the news release.[/QUOTE]
He said male, not man. You get to be pissed when they say man, but male and female is all about what's in your pants. If you want to call her a woman go ahead, but you can't call her a female. The cop did nothing wrong.
Now as for the murder itself, "obvious signs of homicidal violence to the upper body" is pretty vague. But also slightly gruesome, somehow.
maybe the best solution is to not assume people's gender and to use "they" until one knows otherwise
[editline]23rd July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=davidrb18;48280582]He said male, not man. You get to be pissed when they say man, but male and female is all about what's in your pants. If you want to call her a woman go ahead, but you can't call her a female. The cop did nothing wrong.
Now as for the murder itself, "obvious signs of homicidal violence to the upper body" is pretty vague. But also slightly gruesome, somehow.[/QUOTE]
Hello biological determinism, my old friend
[QUOTE=Levithan;48280586]
Hello biological determinism, my old friend[/QUOTE]
I have [I]not[/I] come to talk with you again
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280487]Except for, you know, the breasts and the obvious gender presentation. And they had clearly contacted the family by the time they did the news release.[/QUOTE]
He could have worded it better in the crime report, but it's unlikely that he did it out of spite. He was probably unaware of the community.
[QUOTE=Levithan;48280586]maybe the best solution is to not assume people's gender and to use "they" until one knows otherwise[/QUOTE]
Go for it yourself, but the police department is not in the business of being anything less than bureaucratic, fact-oriented writers. They aren't really keen on being vague when there's a government-issued identification card to refer to.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;48280576]"Okay, well this person's identification card says they identify as male. But clearly they look like a woman, so I think they are a female."
"Okay, well this person told me they identify as female. But clearly they look like a dude, so I think they are a male."
I don't see the difference in stupidity between these two statements... but okay.[/QUOTE]
An ID doesn't mean much when it's still quite difficult and time consuming to change one's gender marker.
[QUOTE=davidrb18;48280582]He said male, not man. You get to be pissed when they say man, but male and female is all about what's in your pants. If you want to call her a woman go ahead, but you can't call her a female. The cop did nothing wrong.
Now as for the murder itself, "obvious signs of homicidal violence to the upper body" is pretty vague. But also slightly gruesome, somehow.[/QUOTE]
Sex is determined by 5 biological factors actually: External genitals, gonads, hormones, chromosomes, and secondary sex characteristics.
For a trans woman in transition, even pre-op, the hormones no longer match as male, neither do the secondary sex characteristics, or even the gonads really because of the chemical castration that occurs. The chromosomes don't have much sway just by themselves either because there are about 16,000 men in the US that have XX (female) chromosomes and we don't call them women.
So to call a trans woman, especially in transition, a male, isn't quite accurate either.
[editline]24th July 2015[/editline]
I'm being a little picky but misgendering a dead trans woman is like taking a big old shit right on their grave. If they actually cared or felt bad about it then they would have changed it by now, but it's still in there.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280655]So to call a trans woman, especially in transition, a male, isn't quite accurate either.[/QUOTE]
They can only go by documentation that is available to them. Considering how difficult it is to actual get a legal gender changed appropriately, it's only expected for the documentation to be outdated.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280655]An ID doesn't mean much when it's still quite difficult and time consuming to change one's gender marker.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=gufu;48280670]They can only go by documentation that is available to them. Considering how difficult it is to actual get a legal gender changed appropriately, it's only expected for the documentation to be outdated.[/QUOTE]
In Florida, you just need to get a letter from the doctor overseeing your transition saying that, well, you're transitioning. Florida does not require sex reassignment surgery (or proof thereof). I'd assume someone quite open to the fact could take a few seconds to ask their doctor to fill in a form letter...
[QUOTE=Snowmew;48280677]In Florida, you just need to get a letter from the doctor overseeing your transition saying that, well, you're transitioning. Florida does not require sex reassignment surgery (or proof thereof). I'd assume someone quite open to the fact could take a few seconds to ask their doctor to fill in a form letter...[/QUOTE]
It also costs $450, requires painstaking detailed paperwork that has to be submitted in a very specific way, and is at least a 3 week process, and then you have a short amount of time to notify anybody ever who might care that your name is different. It's by no means easy or accessible.
[editline]24th July 2015[/editline]
And what if you don't have a doctor because you're doing it DIY (buying the hormone therapy illegally online). Many people do it that way because they either can't find a doctor willing to treat them (fairly common), their insurance doesn't cover HRT, their state medicaid might not support it, and there might be no law in their state that ensures they are covered by anything at all!
And what if you can't get to the courthouse for your court date? What if you mess the paperwork up and have to start all over again?
There is a lot more to this than you're aware of.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280708]It also costs $450, requires painstaking detailed paperwork that has to be submitted in a very specific way, and is at least a 3 week process, and then you have a short amount of time to notify anybody ever who might care that your name is different. It's by no means easy or accessible.[/QUOTE]
$450 which can be waived to $0 with proof of income (or no income), "painstaking detailed paperwork" which involves just filling out a form (wow, government agency requiring a government form filled in precisely? what a shock), and takes anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks of just waiting for it to be approved. You don't have to run on a treadmill or something for that period.
You also do have to notify people because, well, it's a legal name change. Of course you need to notify credit card companies, insurance, etc. about it.
Have you done it yourself? You seem to be pretty poorly versed on the topic and just assume it's difficult.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280708]And what if you don't have a doctor because you're doing it DIY (buying the hormone therapy illegally online). Many people do it that way because they either can't find a doctor willing to treat them (fairly common), their insurance doesn't cover HRT, their state medicaid might not support it, and there might be no law in their state that ensures they are covered by anything at all!
And what if you can't get to the courthouse for your court date? What if you mess the paperwork up and have to start all over again?
There is a lot more to this than you're aware of.[/QUOTE]
None of these are the police department's problem. If you are doing a DIY transition, not only are you doing something really dangerous (speaking from personal experience) but you can't really expect a legal agency to acknowledge an illegal act. Trans-friendly doctors are easier to find than you'd think (particularly in Florida), HRT is not required for a doctor to confirm you're transitioning, insurance/medicaid has no play in your transition, and we're talking about a state where there [i]are[/i] laws covering it.
Also, if you can't get to the courthouse, you can file for an extension. You also may not need a court date at all. If you mess up the paperwork, that's your own fault.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;48280762]$450 which can be waived to $0 with proof of income (or no income), "painstaking detailed paperwork" which involves just filling out a form (wow, government agency requiring a government form filled in precisely? what a shock), and takes anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks of just waiting for it to be approved. You don't have to run on a treadmill or something for that period.
You also do have to notify people because, well, it's a legal name change. Of course you need to notify credit card companies, insurance, etc. about it.
Have you done it yourself? You seem to be pretty poorly versed on the topic and just assume it's difficult.[/QUOTE]
You're apparently not going to acknowledge that people sometimes have struggles you don't understand. Not everyone has access to health care, not everyone can qualify for fee waivers. A lot of people are above the poverty line but still live paycheck to paycheck, meaning you get no fee waiver and can't afford the fee either. Not everyone has reliable transportation, nor is everyone good with paperwork. A lot of trans people become hermits because being in public is too painful, let alone going out and handling this very uncomfortable process. I myself didn't get it done because for months I was too nervous to go back to my doctor since it was dreadfully uncomfortable.
I haven't done it myself but I've looked into the process and know quite a few trans people, and I see their struggles.
Good to know Florida is still a dump.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48280808]You're apparently not going to acknowledge that people sometimes have struggles you don't understand. Not everyone has access to health care, not everyone can qualify for fee waivers. A lot of people are above the poverty line but still live paycheck to paycheck, meaning you get no fee waiver and can't afford the fee either. Not everyone has reliable transportation, nor is everyone good with paperwork. A lot of trans people become hermits because being in public is too painful, let alone going out and handling this very uncomfortable process. I myself didn't get it done because for months I was too nervous to go back to my doctor since it was dreadfully uncomfortable.
I haven't done it myself but I've looked into the process and know quite a few trans people, and I see their struggles.[/QUOTE]
And we circle back to the point that the police department has neither the ability nor the inclination to question a corpse about whether they were too worried to get their ID changed.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;48280833]And we circle back to the point that the police department has neither the ability nor the inclination to question a corpse about whether they were too worried to get their ID changed.[/QUOTE]
I'd say its pretty fucking important to refer to the victim respectfully and professionally. She had a family they could've easily asked rather than offend, along with the rest of the trans community.
[QUOTE=soccerskyman;48281288]I'd say its pretty fucking important to refer to the victim respectfully and professionally. She had a family they could've easily asked rather than offend, along with the rest of the trans community.[/QUOTE]
"I know we just told you that your kid was brutally murdered, but some of us guys at the office were wondering, does (s)he identify as a guy or a gal? Even though the ID card we found says male, we want to be shit sure we get it right on the official press release we're writing to try to frantically get any information we can about your child's murderer. First 48 are crucial."
I bet Florida shot and killed the OP's dog.
[QUOTE=Ziron;48281344]I bet Florida shot and killed the OP's dog.[/QUOTE]
Considering it's Florida, it might have eaten it too.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;48281314]"I know we just told you that your kid was brutally murdered, but some of us guys at the office were wondering, does (s)he identify as a guy or a gal? Even though the ID card we found says male, we want to be shit sure we get it right on the official press release we're writing to try to frantically get any information we can about your child's murderer. First 48 are crucial."[/QUOTE]
Nice strawman. Wouldn't you think information like that would be important to the investigation anyways? This is almost certainly a hate crime, after all.
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