• Boris Johnson exclusive: "Vote to leave the EU"
    39 replies, posted
[t]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02183/johnson_2183154b.jpg[/t] [quote]I am a European. I lived many years in Brussels. I rather love the old place. And so I resent the way we continually confuse Europe – the home of the greatest and richest culture in the world, to which Britain is and will be an eternal contributor – with the political project of the European Union. It is, therefore, vital to stress that there is nothing necessarily anti-European or xenophobic in wanting to vote Leave on June 23. There is only one way to get the change we need, and that is to vote to go, because all EU history shows that they only really listen to a population when it says No. The fundamental problem remains: that they have an ideal that we do not share. They want to create a truly federal union, e pluribus unum, when most British people do not. David Cameron has done his very best, but a vote to Remain will be taken in Brussels as a green light for the further erosion of democracy.[/quote] Source 1: [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12167643/Boris-Johnson-there-is-only-one-way-to-get-the-change-we-want-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html[/url] Source 2: [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35626621[/url] Source 3: [url]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8023547e-d89c-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09.html[/url]
Boris and Farage will make excellent heads of the Brexit, i wish them both the best of luck in their campaign, it's going to be a tough few months for all out campaigners to go against the bloated establishment and the media's efforts to brainwash people to stay in. As he's quite clearly pointed out, a vote to exit is a vote for true democracy, not the bloated corruption of unelected, grossly overpaid 'officials' in the EU.
[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;49787559]As he's quite clearly pointed out, a vote to exit is a vote for true democracy, not the bloated corruption of unelected, grossly overpaid 'officials' in the EU.[/QUOTE] Yeah we'll stick to British bloated, corrupted, grossly overpaid officials thank you very much!
[QUOTE=CrumbleShake;49788300]Yeah we'll stick to British bloated, corrupted, grossly overpaid officials thank you very much![/QUOTE] Eh, you prefer to paying more people that are corrupt and overpaid?
This is great news, never knew he had it in him to go against the PM and most of the government
I can not understand the people who want to leave the EU. It's the British government who's doing all the retarded shit, like trying to defund the NHS, implementing ridiculous censorship laws, and hiking up taxes left and right. The EU on the other hand shoots down bullshit laws that are discriminatory and enforces consumer rights and fair business practices. I have to wonder where this "media's efforts to brainwash people to stay in" is hiding because literally all I've seen of British media is how awful the EU is and how Britain should leave. Also the idea that "a vote to exit is a vote for true democracy" is fucking laughable with Britain's retarded First-past-the-post system. All I've seen of the supporters of Britain leaving the EU has been nationalist rhetoric with nothing of substance.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49789697]I can not understand the people who want to leave the EU. It's the British government who's doing all the retarded shit, like trying to defund the NHS, implementing ridiculous censorship laws, and hiking up taxes left and right. The EU on the other hand shoots down bullshit laws that are discriminatory and enforces consumer rights and fair business practices. I have to wonder where this "media's efforts to brainwash people to stay in" is hiding because literally all I've seen of British media is how awful the EU is and how Britain should leave. Also the idea that "a vote to exit is a vote for true democracy" is fucking laughable with Britain's retarded First-past-the-post system. All I've seen of the supporters of Britain leaving the EU has been nationalist rhetoric with nothing of substance.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35616768"]There are also all the exceptions the UK gets now.[/URL] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate"]The country also pays reduced membership fees.[/URL] (The latter issue is somewhat complex, but really shouldn't be based on special agreements.) I know quite a few people who'd rather have them leave at this point, though I can't say I've looked into it anywhere near well enough to make a statement about this myself and somehow doubt they're fully informed either. It's really annoying that the UK keeps undermining privacy laws/anti-surveillance efforts though.
Don't let the door hit you
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49789697]I can not understand the people who want to leave the EU. It's the British government who's doing all the retarded shit, like trying to defund the NHS, implementing ridiculous censorship laws, and hiking up taxes left and right. The EU on the other hand shoots down bullshit laws that are discriminatory and enforces consumer rights and fair business practices. I have to wonder where this "media's efforts to brainwash people to stay in" is hiding because literally all I've seen of British media is how awful the EU is and how Britain should leave. Also the idea that "a vote to exit is a vote for true democracy" is fucking laughable with Britain's retarded First-past-the-post system. All I've seen of the supporters of Britain leaving the EU has been nationalist rhetoric with nothing of substance.[/QUOTE] Ironically a few years ago that same media delivered an array of scathing attacks on the same EU. The only people who would benefit from a Brexit are the assholes wishing to go behind Europe's back and implement laws and acts that reduce our basic human rights and take away public services. Wish all these fuckers were dead because, like a cancer, they'll linger around until cut away.
Although I absolutley agree with the sentiment that the EU needs reform, I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would wish to leave it in order to "protest" the current state of things. Yes, Britain will surely be able to set up some form of trading agreement with the EU, just like Norway, but here is the thing; the idea that the british will somehow be completely independent of the policies the EU decides to make is ludicrious. Remember, the EU accounts for about 40-50% of british import/export ([URL]http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/international-transactions/outward-foreign-affiliates-statistics/how-important-is-the-european-union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html[/URL]) so the british economy is tied together with the european market; a market that they, by leaving, will have no influence on at all in regards to the policies that are made in that area... all they will be able to do is sit on the side lines and just accept whatever the EU makes up. And that just in regards to trade; the UK will undoubtley be influenced by the various policies that the EU makes in all manner of fields, and there will be nothing they can do about it. To summarize; no matter how much the UK wants to be independent, they will alway be influnced by the policies of the EU simply due to trade and proximity to the continent. Denmark just recently voted no on giving up our exceptions, where upon we were basicly excluded from the talks about the Shengen agreement that happend awhile ago; all we were allowed to do was just sit and listen, and we had to accept whatever was agreed upon. I expect the UK will be in a similar situation if they decide to leave. Instead of leaving, just vote in euro-sceptics as your EU representatives. Atleast that way you are still sending a message, AND you get to still have a say in what way the EU moves politically. You are more likely to change the system from within, than to change it by leaving.
As soon as shit hits the fan in the EU every country ditches the idea of unity and only looks out for themselves.
cant understand why anyone would care what fucking boris johnson says, the mans an absolute fucking nutter
Look at all these foreign experts on our NHS and tax system lmao [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Anybody who says there hasn't been any substance to any pro-exit arguments has been ignoring the substance posted here almost on a daily basis. Do you think your arguments are actually full of substance? They're a load of shit, especially here. We say FP isn't a hivemind but if you don't follow a certain political alignment you're thrown to the slaughter, hell no. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] All of these people wanting us to save our fucking NHS should be the ones voting to leave the EU. TTIP is gonna throw it around and spit it out, not to mention the further hits on the NHS and benefit applications as the refugee crisis exacerbates this summer. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I'm gonna cheer when we leave and I'm proud as hell that we'd be the first ones to do it. Hello, rest of the world.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790549]Look at all these foreign experts on our NHS and tax system lmao [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Anybody who says there hasn't been any substance to any pro-exit arguments has been ignoring the substance posted here almost on a daily basis. Do you think your arguments are actually full of substance? They're a load of shit, especially here. We say FP isn't a hivemind but if you don't follow a certain political alignment you're thrown to the slaughter, hell no. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] All of these people wanting us to save our fucking NHS should be the ones voting to leave the EU. TTIP is gonna throw it around and spit it out, not to mention the further hits on the NHS and benefit applications as the refugee crisis exacerbates this summer. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I'm gonna cheer when we leave and I'm proud as hell that we'd be the first ones to do it. Hello, rest of the world.[/QUOTE] So the Tories cut the NHS, close A&E's around the country and leaving the EU will fix that. Good to know mate.
[QUOTE=Stopper;49790597]So the Tories cut the NHS, close A&E's around the country and leaving the EU will fix that. Good to know mate.[/QUOTE] Thanks for that mate keep up the condescending petnames pal Being serious here, have you looked up [B]properly[/B] what happens to our NHS when TTIP goes through? It really pisses me off that the same people who are for the NHS are the same people who think that having it raped by economical migrants and private insurance firms via the TTIP is what it actually needs The hospital I was born in has been bulldozed down and I have to wait at least 3 weeks for a GP appointment. Do you think I support what the Tories have done? [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] [img]http://i.imgur.com/0N9KcF3.png[/img] [url]http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/eu-us-free-trade-agreement-or-ttip/[/url] ^This shit is absurd, how could you all be [I]for[/I] this? You give the impression that everybody wanting to leave the EU is on some sort of suicidal crash-run but it comes from caring, believe me. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] And the post above is getting the ratings, unbelievable, the state of this country. Guaranteed less than five of you have actually got up and done your research of various sources rather than just listening to the opinion you heard by your parents or by the girl you want to fuck. It shows that all you're interested in are the zingers and shooting down opposition and not actually the substance you're arguing about. Do you actually care about the NHS and taxes or do you just want to laugh at the eurosceptics because that's the popular thing to do
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790611]Thanks for that mate keep up the condescending petnames pal Being serious here, have you looked up [B]properly[/B] what happens to our NHS when TTIP goes through? It really pisses me off that the same people who are for the NHS are the same people who think that having it raped by economical migrants and private insurance firms via the TTIP is what it actually needs The hospital I was born in has been bulldozed down and I have to wait at least 3 weeks for a GP appointment. Do you think I support what the Tories have done? [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] [img]http://i.imgur.com/0N9KcF3.png[/img] [url]http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/eu-us-free-trade-agreement-or-ttip/[/url] ^This shit is absurd, how could you all be [I]for[/I] this? You give the impression that everybody wanting to leave the EU is on some sort of suicidal crash-run but it comes from caring, believe me.[/QUOTE] "raped by economical migrants", have you heard yourself? You may have a point about the firms and TTIP, but the solution is strong leadership who will protect our interests while working with the EU, not throwing our toys out the pram and leaving. And by the way, that leadership we need isn't going to be found from the tories, because they're way too busy benefitting from those private firms raping our NHS. Our problems have much more to do with our own government than outside influences, but I'm sure they're enjoying the diversion of migrants and the big bad EU.
I have been trying to clue myself up more and it's leaning towards a vote to leave. I never comment in these threads though because they are usually filled with rhetoric like 'people who want to vote to leave just have no idea what they are talking about and are only doing it because others are' without bringing anything of value to the argument themselves. In the grand scheme of things nobody knows exactly what will happen. You can predict some of the guaranteed effects, but other than that it's just going to be layers of arguments and counter arguments to the point of 'agree to disagree'. All I can say to would be voters is try to make it your own vote and don't be dissuaded by people claiming to know all of the answers and saying that anyone who doesn't agree with them is an idiot.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;49790670]"raped by economical migrants", have you heard yourself? You may have a point about the firms and TTIP, but the solution is strong leadership who will protect our interests while working with the EU, not throwing our toys out the pram and leaving. And by the way, that leadership we need isn't going to be found from the tories, because they're way too busy benefitting from those private firms raping our NHS. Our problems have much more to do with our own government than outside influences, but I'm sure they're enjoying the diversion of migrants and the big bad EU.[/QUOTE] Are you trying to insinuate that I'm racist due to using that phrase? That's always the first go-to card for anybody shooting my views down and I'm sure a lot of people here, if they're not blind, have noticed that tactic now. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I actually can't believe your post. "You may have actual valid opinions about the TTIP and economical ramifications but because you referred to migrants then you are therefore a racist and your whole argument is a pile of shit" This is the fucking EU, everybody.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790674]Are you trying to insinuate that I'm racist due to using that phrase? That's always the first go-to card for anybody shooting my views down and I'm sure a lot of people here, if they're not blind, have noticed that tactic now. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I actually can't believe your post. "You may have actual valid opinions about the TTIP and economical ramifications but because you referred to migrants then you are therefore a racist and your whole argument is a pile of shit" This is the fucking EU, everybody.[/QUOTE] Wow yeah, just focus on that first line of my post, ignore my whole argument about how the problems of our country are more due to self interested government than the influence of the EU. I said what I did because the entire notion that what's ailing our health service (pun absolutely intentional) is [I]migrants coming to steal our healthcare[/I], is not only absurd, it's obscene. Am I calling you a racist? Not really, although it is interesting that you would assume I was. Almost as if you'd rather play the victim than actually explain why taking the most extreme action available to us is the best choice.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;49790733]Wow yeah, just focus on that first line of my post, ignore my whole argument about how the problems of our country are more due to self interested government than the influence of the EU. I said what I did because the entire notion that what's ailing our health service (pun absolutely intentional) is [I]migrants coming to steal our healthcare[/I], is not only absurd, it's obscene. Am I calling you a racist? Not really, although it is interesting that you would assume I was. Almost as if you'd rather play the victim than actually explain why taking the most extreme action available to us is the best choice.[/QUOTE] What is going on here? Victim Blame Top Trumps? [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Migrants coming to steal our healthcare is not absurd. It's only absurd when it's your argumentative focal-point but it's merely a needle in the haystack of problems with the NHS. It's not absurd, though. Are you implying that it doesn't happen? That there aren't thousands of people trying to get here for free money and healthcare when they're not entitled to it? The most extreme course of action is trying to reform the EU realistically in the state it's in, with all of the countries at each others throats and two of them even threatening to veto the UK deal. Nothing would be done as what is advantageous for the other will be disadvantageous for everybody else. With raised international tensions, other EU leaders no longer care as much about repercussions i.e. Hungary.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790674]Are you trying to insinuate that I'm racist due to using that phrase? That's always the first go-to card for anybody shooting my views down and I'm sure a lot of people here, if they're not blind, have noticed that tactic now. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I actually can't believe your post. "You may have actual valid opinions about the TTIP and economical ramifications but because you referred to migrants then you are therefore a racist and your whole argument is a pile of shit" This is the fucking EU, everybody.[/QUOTE] he didn't say shit about racism, he said outside influences are less important to why we have austerity cuts than the people actually making the cuts are. he could agree with you completely on immigration for all you know. maybe instead of pretending to get indignant at things no one said you should actually post something relevant.
[QUOTE=Cone;49790777]he didn't say shit about racism, he said outside influences are less important to why we have austerity cuts than the people actually making the cuts are. he could agree with you completely on immigration for all you know. maybe instead of pretending to get indignant at things no one said you should actually post something relevant.[/QUOTE] The irony is fucking astounding and it makes me wish I didn't have eyes.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790740]What is going on here? Victim Blame Top Trumps? [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Migrants coming to steal our healthcare is not absurd. It's only absurd when it's your argumentative focal-point but it's merely a needle in the haystack of problems with the NHS. It's not absurd, though. Are you implying that it doesn't happen? That there aren't thousands of people trying to get here for free money and healthcare when they're not entitled to it? The most extreme course of action is trying to reform the EU realistically in the state it's in, with all of the countries at each others throats and two of them even threatening to veto the UK deal.[/QUOTE] Alright, the focal point of my argument is not that those freeloading migrants aren't swanning over here from their country that we're literally actively bombing to take our healthcare, which they don't deserve. Although it's really hard not to point out the irony in that whole situation. Again, my argument is that the conservative government have consistantly cut public spending and absolutely gutted the NHS. Sure, I'm willing to concede that the problems of TTIP aren't helping, but if we maybe hadn't elected a bunch of greedy morons who are buddy buddy with the private enterprises they're selling the NHS to as they cut it up, you wouldn't feel like we had to leave the EU to make things better. Because it won't. Not with this government. Finally, I disagree with that last statement. You know that leaving is more extreme than staying, and it's pretty lousy rhetoric to just say, 'the real extreme thing would be staying!', it's pretty much just saying 'am I?' when somebody tells you you're wrong.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790549]Look at all these foreign experts on our NHS and tax system lmao [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Anybody who says there hasn't been any substance to any pro-exit arguments has been ignoring the substance posted here almost on a daily basis. Do you think your arguments are actually full of substance? They're a load of shit, especially here. We say FP isn't a hivemind but if you don't follow a certain political alignment you're thrown to the slaughter, hell no. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] All of these people wanting us to save our fucking NHS should be the ones voting to leave the EU. TTIP is gonna throw it around and spit it out, not to mention the further hits on the NHS and benefit applications as the refugee crisis exacerbates this summer. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I'm gonna cheer when we leave and I'm proud as hell that we'd be the first ones to do it. Hello, rest of the world.[/QUOTE] Haha, you think Boris won't implement TTIP without the EU? Don't be so naive, if we leave the EU we're going to get the full undiluted version of it. TTIP is something the Tories are going to be all over.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790740]What is going on here? Victim Blame Top Trumps? [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Migrants coming to steal our healthcare is not absurd. It's only absurd when it's your argumentative focal-point but it's merely a needle in the haystack of problems with the NHS. It's not absurd, though. Are you implying that it doesn't happen? That there aren't thousands of people trying to get here for free money and healthcare when they're not entitled to it? The most extreme course of action is trying to reform the EU realistically in the state it's in, with all of the countries at each others throats and two of them even threatening to veto the UK deal. Nothing would be done as what is advantageous for the other will be disadvantageous for everybody else. With raised international tensions, other EU leaders no longer care as much about repercussions i.e. Hungary.[/QUOTE]the cost of providing services to immigrants and visitors costs the NHS £2 billion a year, with the majority of this usage being between visitors with whom we have reciprocal agreement, which makes up a lot of the cost through dealings with the immigrants source country. 'health tourism' costs the nhs £60 million and £80 million per year, compared to the annual budget of £110 billion. there are [URL="https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recovering-costs-of-nhs-healthcare-from-visitors-and-migrants"]many systems[/URL] in place to recuperate costs, with non-Euro patients being charged 150% the normal cost. the average use of [URL="http://hsr.sagepub.com/content/16/2/90.abstract"]immigrants and non-UK citizens[/URL] is lower than the usage by UK citizens [URL="http://www.hscic.gov.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?productid=16721&q=workforce+september+2014&sort=Relevance&size=10&page=1&area=both#top"]20% of the NHS workforce are non-brits, 30% of doctors in the NHS are non-brits, 31% of nursing shifts are done by non-brits[/URL]. the positives put into the system by non-brits far outweigh any percieved negatives caused my immigrants. our system could not run without non-brits. will austerity stop if we leave the EU? "This trade deal with America would have Churchill beaming, ignore the Left-wing mumbo-jumbo and support a treaty that will make us all richer" - [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html"]Boris Johnson on TTIP.[/URL]
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790674]Are you trying to insinuate that I'm racist due to using that phrase? That's always the first go-to card for anybody shooting my views down and I'm sure a lot of people here, if they're not blind, have noticed that tactic now. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I actually can't believe your post. "You may have actual valid opinions about the TTIP and economical ramifications but because you referred to migrants then you are therefore a racist and your whole argument is a pile of shit" This is the fucking EU, everybody.[/QUOTE] I've broken down the following post into points to help you address each point individually if you will. A) You and I both know that Cameron and gang all support the TTIP anyway. Leaving EU != no more TTIP. B) If anything UK being outside the EU will mean we don't get protection from the TTIP from TTIP skeptical European governments. C) Even if our dear conservative government did want to change/be rid of the TTIP being outside the EU would mean we have less negotiation power, meaning the TTIP might be offered with worse terms to the UK or at least any other trade negotiations (with the US/TTIP, EU or other places) can be offered with worse terms. D) Since being out the EU wouldn't have any sway over we get the TTIP (imo being out would mean we are more likely to get it since we'll be desperate for trade deals, our government supports it and its unlikely the gov will propose another referendum for a while) using TTIP as a reason to leave the EU makes for a flawed argument. -onto none TTIP points- E) UK isn't in the shengen areaso we already have control over the type of immigration you have complaints about. Other immigrants - european immigrants - are generally well educated and at working age - meaning the government doesn't have to spend 18 years of education and healthcare before they're ready to contribute. EU migrants are a net positive benefit to our economy, There are other arguments regarding culture etc but thats a poor basis on which to base a leave argument. F) The laws people complain about when they say "EU makes our laws for us" are regarding human rights and regulations. Both are in place to protect you ie the employee/consumer, I can't see why you would want to be rid of them, unless police torturing people, selling substandard products or offering awful employment are something you are in to. EU commission needs reform but arguments that its undemocratic or that its making our laws for us is disingenuous. G) Benefits. While it seems like a bad deal for us its about give and take. We get economic boost along with convenient trade/travel with over EU country's in return we spend a few million (not that much considering who much is spent/cut elsewhere) which will mostly end up back in the british economy anyway as its spent on accommodation/food/luxuries. Wrote this up and forgot to post it. I hope its still relevant.
"There is absolutely nothing not to like about the TTIP. As Churchill might have said, it is altogether un-sordid. And yet virtually the only commentary we have been offered is absurdly hostile and misinformed. The debate is dominated by Left-wing misery-guts anti-globalisation campaigners." - Boris Johnson "Given scaremongering by 38 Degrees and the Labour Party on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), your support would be very welcome in tomorrow's Backbench Business Committee debate. I attach some background information and a myth-buster which colleagues may find useful; there is also a PRU [Parliamentary Research Unit] brief already published, and further briefing is available if you would like it. Economic studies suggest a successful agreement between the EU and US could bring economic benefits of up to £10 billion annually to the UK – equivalent of almost £400 per household." - Michael Gove
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49790549]Look at all these foreign experts on our NHS and tax system lmao [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Anybody who says there hasn't been any substance to any pro-exit arguments has been ignoring the substance posted here almost on a daily basis. Do you think your arguments are actually full of substance? They're a load of shit, especially here. We say FP isn't a hivemind but if you don't follow a certain political alignment you're thrown to the slaughter, hell no. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] All of these people wanting us to save our fucking NHS should be the ones voting to leave the EU. TTIP is gonna throw it around and spit it out, not to mention the further hits on the NHS and benefit applications as the refugee crisis exacerbates this summer. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] I'm gonna cheer when we leave and I'm proud as hell that we'd be the first ones to do it. Hello, rest of the world.[/QUOTE] But Cameron has thrown huge support behind TTIP? If we was to leave we would still almost certainly be a part of it with a Tory government majority. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Missing basic facts like this and giving people false hope is exactly what is wrong with the leave campaign.
[QUOTE=Morgen;49790976]But Cameron has thrown huge support behind TTIP? If we was to leave we would still almost certainly be a part of it with a Tory government majority. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] Missing basic facts like this and giving people false hope is exactly what is wrong with the leave campaign.[/QUOTE] Yeah saw one of those tory worms on the news yesterday saying how money which we give to EU migrants in benefits could be spent on the NHS instead. 1) its only 26M the NHS is "over budget" by over 2B 2) hes a tory of course that money wouldn't be spent on the NHS Its just misinformation. Like a bait and switch. Let us leave the EU and we'll fix the NHS. lol jk If they need to spread lies to garner support for their cause then maybe its just not worth supporting. Scum floats to the top.
If Scotland didn't leave us, i don't think we will either.. better to stick with the enemy you know, right?
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