• 730,000 Ukrainians ditch Ukraine for Russia
    29 replies, posted
[QUOTE]About 730,000 Ukrainians have left the country for Russia this year due to the fighting in eastern Ukraine, the European head of the United Nations agency for refugees said on Tuesday, pointing to a far bigger exodus than previously thought. The figure strips out seasonal data and numbers for people who would normally have crossed the border for trade or tourism purposes, UNHCR's European director Vincent Cochetel told a news briefing. "The 730,000, it's the 'plus' compared to other years," he said. "They are not tourists. We've seen them at the border, just like in any other conflict. They walk, sometimes they just walk across the border, they come with plastic bags. Many of them are really destitute." Meanwhile, pro-Russian separatists opened fire on unarmed Ukrainian soldiers on Tuesday as they crossed back into Ukraine from Russia where they had taken shelter from fighting, Kyiv defence officials said. Ukraine acknowledged on Monday that 311 soldiers and border guards had been forced by fighting with separatists to cross into Russia. It said they had destroyed their weapons before crossing the border, but the rebels said they had left them behind, enabling separatists to seize them. "Today at about 6 a.m. (separatist) fighters treacherously fired on a column in which there were 195 unarmed Ukrainian troops returning from the Russian Federation," Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the national defence council, told Interfax news agency. He had no immediate word on casualties. Government troops have been battling the rebels since April in a war in the Russian-speaking east in which the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights says more than 1,100 people including government forces, rebels and civilians have died. Ukraine accuses Russia of orchestrating the revolt and arming the rebels — something denied by Moscow. The United States and the European Union have imposed sanctions on Russia. Fighting has intensified since the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner last month, killing all 298 people on board — an act which the West laid at the door of the rebels. Russia and the rebels blame the disaster on Kyiv's military offensive. Ukrainian forces say they have been making steady gains and have virtually encircled the separatists' second-largest stronghold of Luhansk while rebels have declared a "state of siege" in Donetsk, the largest city they hold.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-conflict-730-000-have-entered-russia-to-escape-fighting-1.2727574[/url]
730,000 Ukrainians suddenly find themselves in Russia
"this year" Jeez, I thought it was all at once just recently.
I hope they're treated well. It has to be some type of personal hell to have to leave home because of war then get treated terribly when you're seeking refuge in another place.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45605969]"this year" Jeez, I thought it was all at once just recently.[/QUOTE] About to say, I was imaging over 730,000 Ukrainians rush into Russia
Hopefully the rest of the "pro-Russian" fighters join them. It's the only way we'll see a rational end to the current conflict.
Must be bad if you want to live in Russia
[QUOTE=Complifused;45606014]Must be bad if you want to live in Russia[/QUOTE] must be bad if you want to be a refugee [URL]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28669764[/URL] [quote]Civilians in eastern Ukraine are facing increasing hardships, with wrecked infrastructure and limited access to power and water supplies, the UN says. UN humanitarian chief John Ging said "immediate action" was needed to halt the conflict and prevent the situation from putting more people in danger.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Complifused;45606014]Must be bad if you want to live in Russia[/QUOTE] At least Su-25's aren't going to bomb houses in Russia.
[QUOTE=joost1120;45608432]At least Su-25's aren't going to bomb houses in Russia.[/QUOTE] Someone has clearly not seen anti-terrorist russian vids.
[QUOTE=joost1120;45608432]At least Su-25's aren't going to bomb houses in Russia.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/ukrainian-shell-russian-border-town-donetsk[/url] Not safe from shells though. (note russian donetsk is not ukrainian donetsk)
[QUOTE=joost1120;45608432]At least Su-25's aren't going to bomb houses in Russia.[/QUOTE] at least russian artillery isn't going to normally bomb them in russia
[QUOTE=MR-X;45605972]I hope they're treated well. It has to be some type of personal hell to have to leave home because of war then get treated terribly when you're seeking refuge in another place.[/QUOTE] why would they not be treated well they are the only reason that russia thinks it has a claim on these ukrainian provinces
[QUOTE=Kondor;45608535]why would they not be treated well they are the only reason that russia thinks it has a claim on these ukrainian provinces[/QUOTE] Quick treat them badly so they go back and Russia can continue to have a claim!
If I was ukrainian, I'd do the same thing. Might as well go for the side that's winning.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;45609083]If I was ukrainian, I'd do the same thing. Might as well go for the side that's winning.[/QUOTE] What do you mean by that exactly? Because the rebels are losing their ground fast. The army is in Donetsk last time I heard. I can sympathize with the East-Ukranians that identifity themselves as Russiams. But you can't expect Ukraine to just hand over its territory. Moving to Russia might be the best solution they have now. It sucks they feel forced to move, but war is far worse.
Surprised nobody's cracking they aren't ukrainians lol
[QUOTE=Conscript;45609547]Surprised nobody's cracking they aren't ukrainians lol[/QUOTE] They flee to Russia because they are ethnic Russians who don't really think of themselves as Ukrainians. Which is good, that's less pain in the ass for the government. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45608455][url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/ukrainian-shell-russian-border-town-donetsk[/url] Not safe from shells though. (note russian donetsk is not ukrainian donetsk)[/QUOTE] Same can be said about Russian artillery firing on Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;45609702]They flee to Russia because they are ethnic Russians who don't really think of themselves as Ukrainians. Which is good, that's less pain in the ass for the government. Same can be said about Russian artillery firing on Ukraine.[/QUOTE] Russian artillery was targeting military bases and installations. That Ukrainian artillery was, for whatever reason, targeting civilians.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45609804]Russian artillery was targeting military bases and installations. That Ukrainian artillery was, for whatever reason, targeting civilians.[/QUOTE] Accidents happen, however, was it ever confirmed to be Ukrainian artillery? The Soviet Union shelled their own village to find a casus belli for invading Finland for example. I wouldn't be suprised if Russia continues to do that.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;45609083]If I was ukrainian, I'd do the same thing. Might as well go for the side that's winning.[/QUOTE] That's not how an army works. In fact, a lot of countries would shoot you for treason, if not desertion. And the country taking you in wouldn't trust you to fight for them as you're already shown yourself a coward in a fight.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;45609824]Accidents happen, however, was it ever confirmed to be Ukrainian artillery? [/quote] Hmm this is true, I suppose you could say it was a false flag if you wanted to. [quote] The Soviet Union shelled their own village to find a casus belli for invading Finland for example.[/QUOTE] As above, though I don't agree with using precedents set so long ago by a different regime. Would you use the actions of the Nazi's as a valid precedent for some conspiracy theory about germany?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45609858] As above, though I don't agree with using precedents set so long ago by a different regime. Would you use the actions of the Nazi's as a valid precedent for some conspiracy theory about germany?[/QUOTE] While I doubt Russia would do the same thing, that analogy doesn't work. Most, if not all, of the Nazi government officials were not in office after the collapse of the Reich, where as there are many Soviet officials, politicians and bureaucrats still in office of Russia. Heck, Putin is an ex-KGB agent. It's almost the same regime with a different name and different official ideology.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45609880]While I doubt Russia would do the same thing, that analogy doesn't work. Most, if not all, of the Nazi government officials were not in office after the collapse of the Reich, where as there are many Soviet officials, politicians and bureaucrats still in office of Russia. Heck, Putin is an ex-KGB agent. It's almost the same regime with a different name and different official ideology.[/QUOTE] The soviet union changed a lot during its course, the people/person who made the decision to do that false flag are long gone. Also something you all conveniently forget is that Putin left the KGB when they tried to do a coup to stop gorbachev from breaking up the USSR. He picked his side then. He is clearly a capitalist and his government maintains a close relationship with the church, he is more Russian Empire than USSR. Americans just like to draw that false connection since it makes it easier for him to be a bad guy if he is the polar opposite of church loving, capitalist America.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45609905]The soviet union changed a lot during its course, the people/person who made the decision to do that false flag are long gone. Also something you all conveniently forget is that Putin left the KGB when they tried to do a coup to stop gorbachev from breaking up the USSR. He picked his side then. He is clearly a capitalist and his government maintains a close relationship with the church, he is more Russian Empire than USSR. Americans just like to draw that false connection since it makes it easier for him to be a bad guy if he is the polar opposite of church loving, capitalist America.[/QUOTE] Putin is not capitalist nor is Russia. There are a lot of state owned industries and those that are not are held by oligarchs with close ties to Putin and the government. Besides that, the USSR was an imperialist country seeking to expand it's territory. Whether it was using the concept of communism or Russia's nationalism with a side of religion, they are more closely tied to being the same country than not, unlike that of Hitler's Reich and the Germany afterward. If you ignore the pretext of ideology, the lines between what is the USSR and what is Russia in the present day become very blurred.
Pretty good argument. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45609953]Putin is not capitalist nor is Russia. There are a lot of state owned industries and those that are not are held by oligarchs with close ties to Putin and the government. [/quote] We the UK have state owned things. Some State owned != communism and in lots of cases I don't think state owned is all that bad [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Government-owned_companies_of_Russia[/url] That is a list of state owned companies. I see no problem whatsoever with state owned power and space programs. The only questionable thing here is airlines but if it provides value for money (money not being skimmed away into CEO's pockets) then what is the issue? Doesn't look socialist to me. [quote] Besides that, the USSR was an imperialist country seeking to expand it's territory. Whether it was using the concept of communism or Russia's nationalism with a side of religion, they are more closely tied to being the same country than not, unlike that of Hitler's Reich and the Germany afterward. [/quote] Expanding influence is practiced by all big countries. Other countries just use crippling loans ([url]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-30/ukraine-gets-imf-approval-for-17-billion-loan-amid-unrest.html[/url]) and debt to control others. [quote] If you ignore the pretext of ideology, the lines between what is the USSR and what is Russia in the present day become very blurred.[/QUOTE] In that it is the same area and they are trying to expand influence. Area is arbitary. US is trying to expand influence what can be said then?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45609854]In fact, a lot of countries would shoot you for treason, if not desertion. And the country taking you in wouldn't trust you to fight for them as you're already shown yourself a coward in a fight.[/QUOTE] What a load of crap Scorp. Most civil wars and conflicts are decided by defections. Just because something makes sense in your head doesn't make it reality ya know.
[QUOTE=joost1120;45608432]At least Su-25's aren't going to bomb houses in Russia.[/QUOTE] Nah, just [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis]shot[/url] or [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis]gassed[/url] by security forces.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45609854]That's not how an army works. In fact, a lot of countries would shoot you for treason, if not desertion. And the country taking you in wouldn't trust you to fight for them as you're already shown yourself a coward in a fight.[/QUOTE] Well it is the Ukrainian army vs the Russianain militants. I don't think I have much to worry about.
ukraine economy and current govt is in a mess. if given the option between both, i would have chosen russia to live in.
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