Belgium could offer Catalan leader asylum - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Brussels - Belgium could offer asylum to Catalan separatist leader Carles Puigdemont, the country's immigration minister has suggested, as the Spanish political crisis rages. Puigdemont was officially deposed by Madrid as president of the Catalan region on Friday after its parliament unilaterally declared independence from Spain, and now faces possible criminal charges of rebellion. Belgian Immigration Minister Theo Francken, a member of the Flemish separatist N-VA party, questioned whether Puigdemont could be sure of a fair trial and said he could be given asylum in Belgium if he asked for it.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.news24.com/World/News/belgium-could-offer-catalan-leader-asylum-20171029[/url]

If you have criminal charges for rebellion there's obviously something not right.

[QUOTE=Megadave;52835777]If you have criminal charges for rebellion there's obviously something not right.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.historynet.com/civil-war"]Not all rebellions are good.[/URL] I don't think that applies to Catalonia, though.

"Rebellion" has violent connotations to it. The leadership of Catalonia did not threaten or promote a violent separation from Madrid at any moment, and continued to push for a diplomatic solution to their problems. This is really dumb to charge them for rebellion. They're out of office and out of power. Just bar them from further public service for the rest of their lives.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52835873]Rebellion is just open resistance to authority. Can be peaceful. They will also probably be charged with sedition. [I]They should go to some comfortable politics jail for thretanening the safety and well-being of their own people with such reckless, dangerous and seditious conduct[/I].[/QUOTE] Is this some deep abstract sarcasm? Or do you actually think they were being reckless and dangerous?

[QUOTE=Megadave;52836409]Is this some deep abstract sarcasm? Or do you actually think they were being reckless and dangerous?[/QUOTE] I mean, declaring independence when you have virtually zero international support is pretty damn reckless man.

If, tomorrow, the State Governments of Texas or California suddenly declared their peaceable independence from the United States, would you calmly say, "well, that's pretty okay? I hope they have a lot of luck in their adventure." How about if Scotland, rather than going through all that tedious referendum nonsense, just packed up and told Briton to take a walk after Brexit? Would that be okay? No, you wouldn't. It is usually illegal to unilaterally declare your separation from your nation, no matter how peacefully you go about it. Spain is unusual for a lot of reasons, and their monolithic, twisty constitution, with various unacknowledged, abandoned, and ignored clauses has only made the legality of the separation that much murkier. However, it's pretty well within Federal Spain's rights to say that a local government which unilaterally declared separation has in fact done something pretty illegal in their eyes.

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;52836758]If, tomorrow, the State Governments of Texas or California suddenly declared their peaceable independence from the United States, would you calmly say, "well, that's pretty okay? I hope they have a lot of luck in their adventure." How about if Scotland, rather than going through all that tedious referendum nonsense, just packed up and told Briton to take a walk after Brexit? Would that be okay? No, you wouldn't.[/QUOTE] If Texas, California or Scotland, with growing and well-documented feelings of secessionism, after holding a referendum which the central government attempted to suppress by sending in the national guard, including violence against voters, "declared their peaceable independence," then I think you would find many of the same people supporting their efforts. You are wrong.

[QUOTE=Glent;52836901]If Texas, California or Scotland, with growing and well-documented feelings of secessionism, after holding a referendum which the central government attempted to suppress by sending in the national guard, including violence against voters, "declared their peaceable independence," then I think you would find many of the same people supporting their efforts. You are wrong.[/QUOTE] there's no legal way to secede from the union

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;52837922]there's no legal way to secede from the union[/QUOTE] it'd be nice if there were a way to

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52837947]it'd be nice if there were a way to[/QUOTE] Why do you have this hardon for countries collapsing You keeping waxing about the US collapsing as if even if the states had the option to they'd want to / it'd be good for anyone.

[QUOTE=JeSuisIkea;52838739]Why do you have this hardon for countries collapsing You keeping waxing about the US collapsing as if even if the states had the option to they'd want to / it'd be good for anyone.[/QUOTE] well they don't exactly have the option to if they wanted to leave. if they had the option to leave and stayed, then the country is a good one and you have no collapse to fear, no?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52838791]well they don't exactly have the option to if they wanted to leave. if they had the option to leave and stayed, then the country is a good one and you have no collapse to fear, no?[/QUOTE] There is no where near even a sizable minority of any people in any state in the US that wants to separate from the US. As shitty as it gets here sometimes, we all actually would pretty much rather be here than on our own.

[QUOTE=Glent;52836901]If Texas, California or Scotland, with growing and well-documented feelings of secessionism, after holding a referendum which the central government attempted to suppress by sending in the national guard, including violence against voters, "declared their peaceable independence," then I think you would find many of the same people supporting their efforts. You are wrong.[/QUOTE] the california one is just a fox news red meat piece, the whole seperation movement there was one right wing guy, but by golley look at those libtards wantin to break away cas they don't like trump. meanwhile texas still loves to remind people they were independant of the US at least once before. actually texas likes to shit on california a lot and brag about their independence

[QUOTE=angrytoiletry;52837922]there's no legal way to secede from the union[/QUOTE] That's not something to be proud of. [QUOTE=Sableye;52839769]the california one is just a fox news red meat piece, the whole seperation movement there was one right wing guy, but by golley look at those libtards wantin to break away cas they don't like trump. meanwhile texas still loves to remind people they were independant of the US at least once before. actually texas likes to shit on california a lot and brag about their independence[/QUOTE] This doesn't have anything to do with my point, which isn't about whether or not those regions want to secede, but what we would be saying if they did, held a referendum and the governments response was to treat it like a riot.

[QUOTE=Glent;52839854]That's not something to be proud of.[/QUOTE] To be fair, how many countries have the ability to legally secede from it?

[QUOTE=Glent;52839854]That's not something to be proud of. [/QUOTE] There is no need for them to secede if they are all one homogeneous group. Places like Scotland and England, which have a clear history of separate ethnicities, sure. But between US states? We're all the same with maybe a few local differences, nothing more.

Belgium would be making a mistake to offer asylum to a regional nationalist. Belgium is a composite composed of three very distinct ethnic groups (the Flemish, Walloonians, and Germans) with varying levels of separatist movements. If Belgium had a strong, regionalist surge of opinion, it would risk becoming partitioned and literally cease to exist.

[QUOTE=Incitatus;52840775]Belgium would be making a mistake to offer asylum to a regional nationalist. Belgium is a composite composed of three very distinct ethnic groups (the Flemish, Walloonians, and Germans) with varying levels of separatist movements. If Belgium had a strong, regionalist surge of opinion, it would risk becoming partitioned and literally cease to exist.[/QUOTE] I think Catalonia has a better shot at independence than Belgium has of breaking apart.

[QUOTE=Incitatus;52840775]Belgium would be making a mistake to offer asylum to a regional nationalist. Belgium is a composite composed of three very distinct ethnic groups (the Flemish, Walloonians, and Germans) with varying levels of separatist movements. If Belgium had a strong, regionalist surge of opinion, it would risk becoming partitioned and literally cease to exist.[/QUOTE] There's no risk at all to be honest, there are infact no separatist movements of big importance, the Flemish nationalists are aware that nobody (including the majority of their voter base) wants the country to split up, that's why they're asking for confederalism instead.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52840547]There is no need for them to secede if they are all one homogeneous group. Places like Scotland and England, which have a clear history of separate ethnicities, sure. But between US states? We're all the same with maybe a few local differences, nothing more.[/QUOTE] The problem with taking an absolute stance ("you can't leave, that's illegal") is that it dismisses any kind of legitimate reasons which might arise from context. People shouldn't be forced to remain a part of a Union if it doesn't represent them properly, if it treats them unfairly, etc. which are reasons that aren't related to ethnicity. And by suppressing any kind of independence dialogue you're only going to exacerbate the desire for it. It's better to prevent secession through diplomacy than it is through authoritarianism. None of this is to say that I think any US state should secede or is obligated to secede, but I think the law should allow for a discussion about such things to take place if it's necessary.

[QUOTE=Hauptmann;52840841]There's no risk at all to be honest, there are infact no separatist movements of big importance, the Flemish nationalists are aware that nobody (including the majority of their voter base) wants the country to split up, that's why they're asking for confederalism instead.[/QUOTE] Thank you for the Belgian perspective, it's hard to get a feel for how things are "on the ground" sometimes. It still seems like a bad move though because it would legitimize any extreme secessionist politicians who could say "How can you sanction me if you're giving refuge to a Catalan nationalist?" In any case, thanks for giving me that perspective, and sorry if I misrepresented the situation.

[QUOTE=Glent;52840910]The problem with taking an absolute stance ("you can't leave, that's illegal") is that it dismisses any kind of legitimate reasons which might arise from context. People shouldn't be forced to remain a part of a Union if it doesn't represent them properly, if it treats them unfairly, etc. which are reasons that aren't related to ethnicity. And by suppressing any kind of independence dialogue you're only going to exacerbate the desire for it. It's better to prevent secession through diplomacy than it is through authoritarianism. None of this is to say that I think any US state should secede or is obligated to secede, but I think the law should allow for a discussion about such things to take place if it's necessary.[/QUOTE] I agree. Good thing everyone in the US and each state is treated fairly and equally then.

[QUOTE=Sableye;52839769] actually texas likes to shit on california a lot and brag about their independence[/QUOTE] It's ironic because we were pretty much begging the US to take us in from the moment we won independence from Mexico, but they didn't want to add another slave-holding state so it had to wait until John Tyler took office.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52840952]I agree. Good thing everyone in the US and each state is treated fairly and equally then.[/QUOTE] some more equally than others

He has said on his """"declaration"""" this morning that [URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41819940"]he isn't looking to take asylum[/URL], he will just stay there until he can be guaranteed a fair trial in Spain. Belgium PM has said he "has the same rights and responsibilities as any European citizen - no more, no less,", which will be put to the test if he doesn't attend Thursday's citation to declare for sedition, rebellion and misuse of public funds.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52840547]There is no need for them to secede if they are all one homogeneous group. Places like Scotland and England, which have a clear history of separate ethnicities, sure. But between US states? We're all the same with maybe a few local differences, nothing more.[/QUOTE] For now

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52840547]There is no need for them to secede if they are all one homogeneous group. Places like Scotland and England, which have a clear history of separate ethnicities, sure. But between US states? We're all the same with maybe a few local differences, nothing more.[/QUOTE] Ehhh, I wouldn't say that. We're about as similar as classical Greek states were to each other.