Germany expels CIA Berlin chief over worsening relations - Polidicks

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/cFXXX2X.png[/IMG] [QUOTE]"We have seen these reports and have no comment on a purported intelligence matter. However, our security and intelligence relationship with Germany is a very important one and it keeps Germans and Americans safe," White House spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden told Reuters.[I]"It is essential that cooperation continue in all areas and we will continue to be in touch with the German government in appropriate channels,"[/I] she added. [B]A 31-year-old intelligence officer was [URL="http://rt.com/news/170568-germany-us-double-agent/"]arrested[/URL] last week, and further reports on [URL="http://rt.com/news/171528-germany-us-spying-cia/"]Wednesday[/URL] indicated that a German soldier was also being investigated.[/B] According to German newspaper Die Welt, the soldier was said to have made “intensive contacts” with alleged US intelligence officials, and had been under surveillance by Military Intelligence (MAD) for some time. The US has not yet denied allegations that the German intelligence official was passing classified information to the NSA. In a report published on Monday, two unidentified government officials [URL="http://rt.com/usa/171104-us-admits-recruiting-german-spy/"]told[/URL] Reuters of the CIA’s involvement in the operation, which led to the recruitment of the 31-year-old suspected spy, who is now in the custody of German officials. [B]The man was alleged to have passed the Americans 218 secret documents in exchange for € 25,000 ($34,100), and having been a double agent for them for two years through meetings with his contact in Austria and passing on secret documents on a USB stick.[/B] [B]Last October, Merkel was enraged to learn she was allegedly on the NSA’s tapping list since 2002. The Chancellor called the alleged spying, which became known thanks to Edward Snowden’s leaks,[I]"unacceptable."[/I][/QUOTE] [/B]the last fucking thing we need is infighting between NATO members and worsening relations [url]http://rt.com/news/171828-germany-expel-cia-chief/[/url]

[URL="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28243933"]BBC News article about the same topic[/URL] [QUOTE]The official is said to have acted as a CIA contact at the US embassy, reports say, in a scandal that has infuriated German politicians. A German intelligence official was arrested last week on suspicion of spying. An inquiry has also begun into a German defence ministry worker, reports said. "The representative of the US intelligence services at the embassy of the United States of America has been told to leave Germany," government spokesman Steffen Seibert said.[/QUOTE]

Go Germany, show US that they can't just spy on whoever they want.

[quote]the last fucking thing we need is infighting between NATO members and worsening relations [/quote] True enough but someone needs to tell America to fuck right off.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;45349755]True enough but someone needs to tell America to fuck right off.[/QUOTE] But they'll just go about doing the same thing more circumspectly. It is how it is.

[QUOTE=cucumber;45349732]Go Germany, show US that they can't just spy on whoever they want.[/QUOTE] The spying will continue regardless of this expelling, this is more of a symbolic gesture.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;45349755]True enough but someone needs to tell America to fuck right off.[/QUOTE] This is true. Most of us citizens are too complacent to do it ourselves, so go Germany!

It wont degrade into anything worse than some strongly worded papers thrown back and forth

Meh these things come and go Its probably something German officials would endorse to boost there approval ratings amid people getting fed up with the U.S spy crap.

ok so its about time obama actually addresses this before we're completely shut out of europe for spying, the global fight against terrorism isn't going to stop because we're mad at each other also someone at the CIA needs to be held responsible, at some point someone has to have pointed out that this level of spying on our allies would be incredibly destructive if it ever got out, sadly obama has chosen to just ignore this issue for the last year and a half

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;45349755]True enough but someone needs to tell America to fuck right off.[/QUOTE] You're either desperate or delusional if you think the US is the only country doing these things.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;45350498]You're either desperate or delusional if you think the US is the only country doing these things.[/QUOTE] From the article, it looks like German Intelligence got caught doing something and blamed the US because on single handler was American.

[QUOTE=Sableye;45350416]ok so its about time obama actually addresses this before we're completely shut out of europe for spying, the global fight against terrorism isn't going to stop because we're mad at each other also someone at the CIA needs to be held responsible, at some point someone has to have pointed out that this level of spying on our allies would be incredibly destructive if it ever got out, sadly obama has chosen to just ignore this issue for the last year and a half[/QUOTE] I'm going to quote myself from the previous thread. [QUOTE=catbarf;45322526]You should read literally any book on how intelligence-gathering operates. I'd suggest By Way of Deception, Robert Maxwell: Israel’s Master Spy, or Dirty Work. Or even go read Argo, it was written by Tony Mendez himself. Every country operates an intelligence service that tries to get as much information as they can. It's not about trust. It's not about who your allies are. It's because politicians will lie, and they will withhold vital information, and every country has an express desire in knowing what their neighbors are up to. It's why sudden events like the Iranian Revolution or the dissolution of Yugoslavia are today considered unusual, whereas if you go back a hundred years and look at historical events like the invasion of Poland or the Spanish Civil War, they were commonplace because there was no formal apparatus for governments to keep tabs on one another. The United States maintained for decades the so-called 'rainbow plans', military plans for possible war with close allies, such as the UK (War Plans Red and Red-Orange). It isn't because it was considered a strong likelihood, it's because without any effective way to gather intelligence, political shifts and sudden wars could not be predicted. Nearly every European country maintained similar plans, but today they're considered archaic because of the availability of intelligence. And today the US is far from the only country that does this sort of thing, and spying is not and never has been restricted to only a nation's top enemies, like the popular image of the West united against the Soviets. Sharon Scranage, a CIA officer, was a spy for Ghana. Kendall Myers, State Department, spied for Cuba for over thirty years. Jonathan Pollard, a civilian intelligence analyst, was an Israeli spy. Israel is one of our closest allies, and yet there is a long history of Israeli intelligence (primarily Mossad) seeking to infiltrate the US government. Those are just a few off the top of my head that got into the US government, if we want to talk about spying between the Five Eyes and NATO there are dozens more examples. By the way, you want to talk about the BND, Germany's spy service? There was a scandal in '05 when it got out that back in the 90s they had started a spy program against journalists from their own country to try to contain negative press about German involvement in the Gulf War. Colin Powell's request for military aid from the UN against Iraq in 2003 was based on intelligence collected by the BND, whose agents in Iraq had recruited an informant who claimed that Hussein was in possession of WMDs. And back in '08, one of their main assets in Iran, who provided information on Iranian nuclear development to his BND handlers, was arrested in Germany when it became apparent that he was double-crossing his handlers. There was a scandal. 'Security apparatus workers', my ass. If the German BND could put a tap on Barack Obama's phone, they would do so in a heartbeat, and if you think otherwise you are incredibly naive and uninformed. Our allies aren't mad that we would dare to spy on other countries, they're mad that we're better at it than they are.[/QUOTE] Germany does the same thing, everyone else in NATO does the same thing, every country on Earth with a government more functional than Somalia's does the same thing. At the moment, the German government is capitalizing on anti-NSA public sentiment to score some easy points and look like they're being tough on the US, but if they had the tradecraft and resources to recruit an American intelligence officer they wouldn't be above doing so- if they haven't already.

So, does that mean that Germany isn't mad that we were spying, but rather they're mad that they found out that we were spying on them a whole lot better than they're spying on us?

[QUOTE=Turing;45349665] [/B]the last fucking thing we need is infighting between NATO members and worsening relations [/QUOTE] Imho expect more of that in the future considering Europe is slowly weaning their way into having stronger military cooperation between EU members, starting with the various task force groups which are already established and continuing military economic differences as well. The Boeing|Airbus deal comes to mind and the push from the US for European nations to adopt boeing transporters. There's still a lot of projects they cooperate on obviously, like the JSF but I'd say the long view might be a slow but gradual push apart.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;45349755]True enough but someone needs to tell America to fuck right off.[/QUOTE] Why don't your countries band together and do something about it then? Oh that's right, practically the entire EU and NATO has shrunk their military to a fraction of what is actually necessary in an effort to save money and have left the US to pick up the slack, even if it causes the US to go into crippling debt. Stop bitching about the US because without them your countries would be in no economic, military, or political situation to be able to act all high and mighty.

[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;45352337]Why don't your countries band together and do something about it then? Oh that's right, practically the entire EU and NATO has shrunk their military to a fraction of what is actually necessary in an effort to save money and have left the US to pick up the slack, even if it causes the US to go into crippling debt. Stop bitching about the US because without them your countries would be in no economic, military, or political situation to be able to act all high and mighty.[/QUOTE] Actually EU countries have completely capable militaries, but they have historically been against direct action for historical reasons. It's rare for EU countries to partake in things that aren't Peacekeeping missions and when those happen, they tend to contribute sizeable resources. KFOR being a good example. As to why EU countries are against direct intervention - It's actually a relic of the world wars and particularly Germany is very much against having the bundeswehr go anywhere it's not invited. Also look at the main conflicts right now so to speak. Iraq - american invasion against a threat they considered vs the US, with some usually specialist EU detachments Afghanistan - once more pretty much an american invasion, though since then small EU detachments have joined in Formerly Lybia - The no fly zone was instigated by the EU, held by the EU, before the US escalated the whole thing quite a lot Ukraine - no one really wants to get involved there Georgia - Pretty much a georgian fuck up which again no one wanted to get involved in Syria - The Syrian government is bloody careful to stay in line of acceptable behaviour in a civil war. The US has such a huge military, because their economy has been directed at the military since the second world war. The cold war that followed basically created a massive military industrial complex that the US actually sort of has to keep running. As to economic, military or political power. The EU is actually the biggest economical power in the world, politically carries a huge clout and from a military standpoint is extremely powerful. The main thing the EU lacks compared to the US is power projection, because newsflash. Eu countries never really attempted to project power in the vein of the US, because they never had to. This is again because there's a different conception between the two. The US holds that preemptive strikes are still defensive and legal. Most Eu countries draw the line at preventive strikes and they've never had to resort to that. Look at it this way, what are probably the four biggest militaries in the EU at this time. Germany - Hugely against foreign intervention - never really a colonial|imperial power France - Been relatively passive with their issues of colonial retention, but have lately become more proactive (see Libya) - lost their colonial position during the cold war UK - Doesn't hugely act on it's own, but is often present in the same theaters as the US - willingly lost their colonial position during the cold war Poland - Former warpac country and has become more active only now. Plus most of their fears are in Russia - was never a colonial power the US - has tried to become a pseudo imperialistic power since it's inception. So it has always pushed for power projection.

I feel like it's a theathrical act. Spying has been happening since ancient times? People spy on one another inside governments aswell, who in their right minds thinks they don't spy other countries govt's and officials?

[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;45352337]Why don't your countries band together and do something about it then? Oh that's right, practically the entire EU and NATO has shrunk their military to a fraction of what is actually necessary in an effort to save money and have left the US to pick up the slack, even if it causes the US to go into crippling debt. Stop bitching about the US because without them your countries would be in no economic, military, or political situation to be able to act all high and mighty.[/QUOTE] Where are you getting your numbers from? The Cold War was over 2 decades ago, internally most EU states are perfectly capable of defending themselves militarily. Economically combined they are one of the powerhouses of global trade, and politically? what has the US got to do with the internal politics of the EU lol. High and mighty? They were caught with their pants down spying on a supposed allied country, I should say they would be mad.

All this means is either the US Intelligence agencies are doing a shit job or the German Intelligence ones are doing a good job. I'm going to go with US Intelligence fucking up, what with all the leaks and shit. Seriously US Intelligence have been sucking hard at their job lately. [editline]11th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=godfatherk;45352427]I feel like it's a theathrical act. Spying has been happening since ancient times? People spy on one another inside governments aswell, who in their right minds thinks they don't spy other countries govt's and officials?[/QUOTE] Yes everyone does it, everyone knows everyone does it, doesn't mean everyone takes kindly to being spied on. Out of sight, out of mind etc etc

[QUOTE=wraithcat;45352410]Actually EU countries have completely capable militaries, but they have historically been against direct action for historical reasons. It's rare for EU countries to partake in things that aren't Peacekeeping missions and when those happen, they tend to contribute sizeable resources. KFOR being a good example. As to why EU countries are against direct intervention - It's actually a relic of the world wars and particularly Germany is very much against having the bundeswehr go anywhere it's not invited. Also look at the main conflicts right now so to speak. Iraq - american invasion against a threat they considered vs the US, with some usually specialist EU detachments Afghanistan - once more pretty much an american invasion, though since then small EU detachments have joined in Formerly Lybia - The no fly zone was instigated by the EU, held by the EU, before the US escalated the whole thing quite a lot Ukraine - no one really wants to get involved there Georgia - Pretty much a georgian fuck up which again no one wanted to get involved in Syria - The Syrian government is bloody careful to stay in line of acceptable behaviour in a civil war. The US has such a huge military, because their economy has been directed at the military since the second world war. The cold war that followed basically created a massive military industrial complex that the US actually sort of has to keep running.[/QUOTE] The only countries that have anything resembling an actual strong military are the UK(focusing largely on only their navy and air force though), France, and Germany. The rest of the EU is either too small and know that the countries surrounding them will help, or they just don't feel threatened enough to bother. As for the US military industrial complex, the only reason it exists is because the US was the only allied country that was able to combat the threat of the Soviet Union after WW2, due to the wartime damage in Europe. But, for whatever stupid reason, the military's of Europe did not seem to scale along with the improving economic situation, and that shows the most today. The US however, continued to grow their military out of necessity, because without the US, all of Europe was doomed to inevitably fall. After the fall of the Soviet Union, that threat practically dissapeared, but new ones took its place in the form of new-age terrorism, and a growing and largely unfriendly China. This is why the US continues to have such a large, and growing military, and this is why the majority of Europe feels no need to worry about their respective military's. [editline]10th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Mabus;45352430]Where are you getting your numbers from? The Cold War was over 2 decades ago, internally most EU states are perfectly capable of defending themselves militarily. Economically combined they are one of the powerhouses of global trade, and politically? what has the US got to do with the internal politics of the EU lol. High and mighty? They were caught with their pants down spying on a supposed allied country, I should say they would be mad.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]most EU states are perfectly capable of defending themselves militarily.[/QUOTE] My ass. You're gonna try and tell me with a straight face that most of the EU could hold off aggression from Russia or China on their own? Good one. My whole point is that the US is practically the only country able to fight effectively [B]externally[/B], and that is where the problem is coming from. If the US were to only focus on an internal military, and said fuck you to Europe, Europe would be screwed, but the US would be insanely wealthy. The attitude that many people within Europe and even Canada have towards the US is disgusting considering everything that the US is doing for our countries. Also, the US has every right to spy on the politics of European countries since they are in security pact, and the only way to test the integrity and reliability of your allies is to figure out whether they are being truthful or not.

[QUOTE=godfatherk;45352427]I feel like it's a theathrical act. Spying has been happening since ancient times? People spy on one another inside governments aswell, who in their right minds thinks they don't spy other countries govt's and officials?[/QUOTE] That's what I thought the moment people took to the forums going "mah rights, damn NSA, and CIA, and FBI". At the least, these American organizations have been most likely keeping tabs on it's own citizens since the McCarthy Era. This is not anything new, I am not surprised, nor will I be surprised at what Governments do to one another to keep tabs. I don't care that the NSA has info on me, I am not a terrorist, or any person of interest. I am a fat, 20 year old Chicagoan, that stays up all night, eating snacks and playing video games. On that note, no matter how many petitions are signed, or protests done, or any form of Activism taken, Spying will continue. It has been going on for over a [b]MILLENNIA![/B] And it will keep going, until either we reach the impossible utopia, or Humanity ceases to exist.

-ninja'd-

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;45352679]That's what I thought the moment people took to the forums going "mah rights, damn NSA, and CIA, and FBI". At the least, these American organizations have been most likely keeping tabs on it's own citizens since the McCarthy Era. This is not anything new, I am not surprised, nor will I be surprised at what Governments do to one another to keep tabs. I don't care that the NSA has info on me, I am not a terrorist, or any person of interest. I am a fat, 20 year old Chicagoan, that stays up all night, eating snacks and playing video games. On that note, no matter how many petitions are signed, or protests done, or any form of Activism taken, Spying will continue. It has been going on for over a [b]MILLENNIA![/B] And it will keep going, until either we reach the impossible utopia, or Humanity ceases to exist.[/QUOTE] And if not done by governments, done by Corporations and Private citizens looking to harrass and exploit.

[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;45352536]The only countries that have anything resembling an actual strong military are the UK(focusing largely on only their navy and air force though), France, and Germany. The rest of the EU is either too small and know that the countries surrounding them will help, or they just don't feel threatened enough to bother. As for the US military industrial complex, the only reason it exists is because the US was the only allied country that was able to combat the threat of the Soviet Union after WW2, due to the wartime damage in Europe. But, for whatever stupid reason, the military's of Europe did not seem to scale along with the improving economic situation, and that shows the most today. The US however, continued to grow their military out of necessity, because without the US, all of Europe was doomed to inevitably fall. After the fall of the Soviet Union, that threat practically dissapeared, but new ones took its place in the form of new-age terrorism, and a growing and largely unfriendly China. This is why the US continues to have such a large, and growing military, and this is why the majority of Europe feels no need to worry about their respective military's. [editline]10th July 2014[/editline] My ass. You're gonna try and tell me with a straight face that most of the EU could hold off aggression from Russia or China on their own? Good one. My whole point is that the US is practically the only country able to fight effectively [B]externally[/B], and that is where the problem is coming from. If the US were to only focus on an internal military, and said fuck you to Europe, Europe would be screwed, but the US would be insanely wealthy. The attitude that many people within Europe and even Canada have towards the US is disgusting considering everything that the US is doing for our countries. Also, the US has every right to spy on the politics of European countries since they are in security pact, and the only way to test the integrity and reliability of your allies is to figure out whether they are being truthful or not.[/QUOTE] Uh largish militaries in Europe apart from the UK, Germany and France Poland, Italy, Spain. Most other European militaries also have a similar percentage of the population in service as the US does. You just get vastly different population sizes when you're dealing with a ten million population as opposed to dealing with one that's over 300 million. As to dealing with aggression from Russia or China? Europe is completely capable of handling just that. European ground armies are often considered better trained and better armed than their american equivalents. The reasons why the US and EU have different militaries is due to a vastly different focus on foreign policy that both sides employ. As has been mentioned before, the US is essentially a pseudo colonial, pseudo imperial power. This was hugely established during the cold war, but was present before it a lot as well - hell it's one of the reasons for the jap|american side of the conflict. European countries instead began adopting a hands of approach to foreign policy during the cold war. And it's obvious why. The enemy wasn't on the other side of the ocean. The enemy was right on the other side of the border. On top of that, you had a reminder of two bloody brutal wars in your home territories. Power projection was pretty much always a secondary concern, because if a war did happen, it would happen at home. All of these factors are kinda what made the US the main target for foreign terrorism. And why the US is sitting around with a bunch of aircraft carriers in SEA. Whereas Europe had to generally contend with domestic terrorism. European countries aren't worried because the US military is so strong. European countries aren't worried, because Europe is an economical powerhouse which is generally seen as a more neutral party and which often works as a peace broker. On top of that domestically Europe is stable and with the collapse of the SSSR a buffer of former soviet republics established itself between all the former, quickly integrating central and eastern european soviet sattelite states and the RF. The biggest and most worrying conflict Europe had to contend with was the Balkan, which did see a sizeable peacekeeper presence from Europe. Notice that it was also quite a success. Most of former yugo is stable and some of the countries are actually a part of the EU now. Mind you this was an area where the civil war ended in 99. If the US abandoned their external minded military, their economy would possibly come crashing. Remember that a lot of the money the US is spending on the military is actually funneled into the US private sector.