France’s Prime Minister backs burkini swimsuit ban, saying they are based on “enslavement of women" - Polidicks

[quote] France’s Prime Minister has backed the banning of burkini swimsuits, saying they are not compatible with French values and are based on the “enslavement of women”. His comments come after a series of towns in the Mediterranean coast announced a ban, citing security concerns following a summer marred by extremist attacks. However, Manuel Valls told the La Provence newspaper he was not in favour of a national law along such lines, even as three more towns said they were considering similar moves.[/quote] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-pm-backs-burkini-bans-as-three-more-towns-consider-outlawing-garments-a7195136.html[/url]

Wow. What a stupid way of thinking.

[quote] France’s Prime Minister has backed the banning of burkini swimsuits, [b]saying they are not compatible with French values[/b][/quote] Assuming French values are objective to interpretation and set in stone, the state has no place in telling people how to dress, or to enforce conformism to current cultural trends legislatively. [quote]However, Manuel Valls told the La Provence newspaper he was not in favour of a national law along such lines,[/quote] That's a relief, at the very least. [editline]17th August 2016[/editline] I hope that those who would previously wear burkinis go and buy full diving gear to wear to the beach, because ridicule is the only way to deal with shameless populism.

Aren't the French values liberty, equality, and fraternity? Surely freedom to dress how one wishes should come under that somewhere

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50902249]Aren't the French values liberty, equality, and fraternity? Surely freedom to dress how one wishes should come under that somewhere[/QUOTE] lets be fair, if you're still forced to cover most of your body you're still not dressing how you want

seems like he's alright with the spirit of the ban but doesn't think it would be effective, so i guess he's a little smarter than those mayors

[QUOTE=J!NX;50902266]lets be fair, if you're still forced to cover most of your body you're still not dressing how you want[/QUOTE] ...And if they aren't being forced to wear them? What if they still want to wear them?

[QUOTE=Cone;50902269]seems like he's alright with the spirit of the ban but [b]doesn't think it would be effective[/b], so i guess he's a little smarter than those mayors[/QUOTE] Pretty sure it will be effective in banning burkinis, they are hardly inconspicuous. Whether it's effective in grabbing more votes remains to be seen.

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50902249]Aren't the French values liberty, equality, and fraternity? Surely freedom to dress how one wishes should come under that somewhere[/QUOTE] Laïcité is too, which is basically fairly aggressive secularism which strongly frowns upon any public display, including a personal display, of religious attire, which is often seen to include things like burqas and burkinis

How about they increase security in an ethical way instead of telling people what they should wear?

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50902275]...And if they aren't being forced to wear them? What if they still want to wear them?[/QUOTE] That's perfectly fine and dandy if that's what you want, but the choice is all that matters, and being able to make it matters I think banning burkini is stupid but not totally crazy but woman should be allowed to wear what they wish, not just a 'religiously safe' alternative

In many parts of the Muslim sphere women are de facto forced to wear hijab, but the Quran itself doesn't force them to - it just recommends veiling oneself a a way for women to practice modesty. It also has recommendations for men's dress and manner. There has been a surge in the last few decades in the proportion of hijabi women due to the rise of conservative and extremist sentiments among various schools of Islam, which in their own turn are a result of interventionism from the West and the Soviets. Kabul used to be one of the most progressive cities in the world - hijabis were a minority in Afghanistan then, but they were free to do so or not. The hijab in itself is not a problem. It's a way to show your faith and women should be allowed to do so as they wish. The issue is that many women across the world (but for the large majority in the so-called Muslim sphere) are forced by their families or their community at large to cover up. But like, if some lady in France wears some whole-body swimsuit to the beach because she wants to have a connection with God, then let her.

So the state wants to decide what people can't wear because a religion is deciding what people should wear. :speechless:

He's not wrong. It is incompatible with liberal values, not to mention modernity. There's a reason the French Revolution was anti-clerical

They are definitely a result on Islam's inherently sexist control and domination over women so I don't exactly have sympathy.

[QUOTE=Jodern;50902323]So the state wants to decide what people can't wear because a religion is deciding what people should wear. :speechless:[/QUOTE] This is stupid on so many levels

[QUOTE=Jodern;50902323]So the state wants to decide what people can't wear because a religion is deciding what people should wear. :speechless:[/QUOTE] to be fair, the religious community shouldn't be making them do it to boot, so "they started it" at least can be argued :v:

I still don't understand people defending these things. They're the result of a culture oppressing women, they aren't even in the Quran. There are 0 redeeming factors about the Burqua/burquini

[QUOTE=phygon;50902351]I still don't understand people defending these things. They're the result of a culture oppressing women, they aren't even in the Quran. There are 0 redeeming factors about the Burqua/burquini[/QUOTE] The Quran says to dress modestly, for some women, the hijab fulfills that requirement. If this was a ban on short skirts, you guys would be in an uproar, but since it's a ban on clothing that the poor old oppressed Muslim women wear, it's okay.

[QUOTE=Mr. N;50902337]They are definitely a result on Islam's inherently sexist control and domination over women so I don't exactly have sympathy.[/QUOTE] I love how you guys fight for the rights of women by assuming that women are incapable of believing and following their own religion/culture

[QUOTE=J!NX;50902348]to be fair, the religious community shouldn't be making them do it to boot, so "they started it" at least can be argued :v:[/QUOTE] You are assuming that all of the women who wear burqas have no agency at all, which is asinine. Even if that were true, banning them just enforces segregation and makes people retreat into either tightly-knit communities or even worse, completely from society. [QUOTE=phygon;50902351]There are 0 redeeming factors about the Burqua/burquini[/QUOTE] Don't wear them, then?

Wouldn't banning someone forcing someone else to wear it make sense?

I still don't understand why people think this ban is a good idea. Are woman told to wear certain clothes by their religion? Yes. But do they live with it? Yes. I doubt most of them care/believe that they're slaves. Besides, even if your goal is to stop them from being forced to wear this, how is banning the clothing they're supposed to wear a good idea? To get rid of this, you simply make a law that prevents men from forcing women to wear clothes.

[QUOTE=greasemunky;50902397]Wouldn't banning someone forcing someone else to wear it make sense?[/QUOTE] tbh this is obviously the best option banning a clothing item like this makes no sense banning their families or friends from making them wear it would be best [QUOTE=phaedon;50902391]You are assuming that all of the women who wear burqas have no agency at all, which is asinine. Even if that were true, banning them just enforces segregation and makes people retreat into either tightly-knit communities or even worse, completely from society.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=J!NX;50902303] [B]I think banning burkini is stupid[/B] but not totally crazy[/QUOTE]

Laws in the Muslim world that force women to cover themselves are stupid, but if you guys honestly think that most Muslim women in developed western countries wear hijab because they're "forced" to, you've probably never spoken to a Muslim woman, so grats. Why anyone thinks that this law is a good idea is beyond me.

-snip-

[QUOTE=J!NX;50902415]-snip-[/QUOTE] I wasn't challenging your opinion in general, just that specific argument. Shouldn't have started my post with "you are assuming" I guess.

Can someone tell me what kind of french value is it to be showing a lot of skin on the beach? I mean, what if I or my gf go to a french beach and we will have long trousers and tshirts? Is someone going to be offended? Or what? And how is this helping anyone? They just won't go to the beach now. It's not like they'll go to the beach in bikinis now.

[QUOTE=greasemunky;50902397]Wouldn't banning someone forcing someone else to wear it make sense?[/QUOTE] A ban that would be absolutely impossible to enforce. The folks that are forcing their family members to wear them would just say "hey say that you're wearing this willingly or I'll beat you"

[QUOTE=da space core;50902385]I love how you guys fight for the rights of women by assuming that women are incapable of believing and following their own religion/culture[/QUOTE] It's almost as if you're allergic to the idea that they internalize concepts that oppress them, particularly since you are born into identities, you don't pick and choose. We can only really do that with the bible, and that's because Christianity has been neutered by liberalism and modernity, unlike islam. You're not going to get around this, if your argument boils down to 'all authoritarianism is the same you're just as bad as them' you're not being liberal, sorry. You're just a contrarian. This is 'if you kill them, they win'-tier bullshit that contradicts the actual opinions of liberals in history confronted with threats to liberty from right and left.