Obama calls for release of captured soldier, accuses Hamas of breaking the truce - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Obama said he condemned both Hamas and the attack within minutes of the incident. "If they (Hamas) are serious about trying to resolve this situation, that soldier needs to be unconditionally released as soon as possible," he told a news conference. Obama reiterated Israel's right to defend itself, saying no country would tolerate rockets and tunnel attacks. He stated that Hamas is housing rockets in the middle of civilian neighborhoods, "which is why we see innocent people getting killed."[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.608414"]Source[/URL].

"saying no country would tolerate rockets and tunnel attacks" I hate this line of argument. No country would tolerate being kettled in to a tiny landmass while a foreign state takes over their land and kills their people.

Pretty torn on how to feel about this. On one hand, I'm tired of the mutual cock sucking between Israel and the USA. On the other, it's pretty clear Hamas doesn't care much for their civilians, only the destruction of Israel. I guess I care for the civilians on both sides caught in the crossfire of a pointless conflict.

[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45570282]"saying no country would tolerate rockets and tunnel attacks" I hate this line of argument. No country would tolerate being kettled in to a tiny landmass while a foreign state takes over their land and kills their people.[/QUOTE] Again, no one is taking the Gazan people's land. Israel [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza"]unilaterally retreated from Gaza[/URL] and removed all settlements in 2005. Israel (and Egypt) only blockaded Gaza in 2007 after [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip"]Hamas took over and started shooting rockets into Israel[/URL].

Why was he down a tunnel during a cease fire? Cease fires don't mean continue destroying enemy tunnels and complain if something goes wrong. [editline]2nd August 2014[/editline] And regardless of what the blockade was in response to, it's illegal, so it should stop.

[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;45570419]Why was he down a tunnel during a cease fire? Cease fires don't mean continue destroying enemy tunnels and complain if something goes wrong. [editline]2nd August 2014[/editline] And regardless of what the blockade was in response to, it's illegal, so it should stop.[/QUOTE] The terms of the cease fire, which Hamas agreed to, allowed the IDF to continue demolishing tunnels into Israel. From [URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-and-hamas-agree-to-72-hour-humanitarian-ceasefire/"]here[/URL]: [QUOTE]Terms of the cease-fire include a halt to rocket fire and a freezing of ground troop positions, according to CBS News correspondent Margaret Brennan. [B]However, tunnel operations are expected to continue.[/B] Israel says most of the 32 tunnels it has uncovered have now been demolished and that getting rid of the remainder will take no more than a few days. "We have neutralized dozens of terror tunnels and we are committed to complete this mission, with or without a cease-fire," Netanyahu said earlier Thursday in televised remarks. "Therefore, I will not agree to any offer that does not allow the military to complete this important mission for the security of the people of Israel." Meanwhile, during the cease-fire, Gaza residents will be able to attend to urgent matters they were prohibited from while the attacks were taking place.[/QUOTE]

Pretty empty statement on Obama's part really Make a highly impractical demand without any incentives or reciprocating gestures of good faith, yeah I'm sure they'll get right on that

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45570446]The terms of the cease fire, which Hamas agreed to, allowed the IDF to continue demolishing tunnels into Israel. From [URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-and-hamas-agree-to-72-hour-humanitarian-ceasefire/"]here[/URL]:[/QUOTE] Sorry, yes, just read the other thread. So now it's just the IDF's word against Hamas's

[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45570282]"saying no country would tolerate rockets and tunnel attacks" I hate this line of argument. No country would tolerate being kettled in to a tiny landmass while a foreign state takes over their land and kills their people.[/QUOTE] The Palestinian Liberation Organization cannot, from a correct legal standpoint, be called a 'country.' They hold observer status in the UN, however, and they are the recognized sole representative of the Palestinian people by most countries, Israel included.

[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45570282]"saying no country would tolerate rockets and tunnel attacks" I hate this line of argument. No country would tolerate being kettled in to a tiny landmass while a foreign state takes over their land and kills their people.[/QUOTE] except this country unilaterally decided to persue this suicidal path of offensive retaliation against israel by first letting hamas run things, and then letting them turn the gaza strip into one giant fortress with tunnels, bunkers, and munition stores underneath and all around the civilians that live there

Just an interesting observation... We never had this '1soldier is a huge deal' mentality 100 years ago; change is a strange, but good thing sometimes

[quote] He stated that Hamas is housing rockets in the middle of civilian neighborhoods, "which is why we see innocent people getting killed."[/quote] It is like whenever the US says something that can be perceived slightly critical of Israel, Obama always has to quickly balance it out with 20 deluded statements in favor of Israel. Israel shells a beach where four kids are just playing, any other country would receive untold international sanctions, shells multiple UN shelters/hospitals with officials testifying no Hamas presence and even Israel's own designated evacuation shelters. Yesterday, in retaliation (a soft way of saying a revenge attack), Israel bombs the shit out of a city after hearing one of their soldiers [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/01/israel-bombards-rafah-soldier-disappears-gaza-ceasefire-collapse"]may have been kidnapped[/URL]. But now they are saying they aren't too sure if he was really detained and [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1414341"]may have actually just died prior[/URL]. Israel's policy of state sponsored terrorism (the use of political violence/intimidation for goals) to force the Palestinians into submission is why we see innocent people getting killed, and Obama's attempt to be an apologist for it makes him equally complicit. Whatever move Obama continues to do in order to soften his image for future history, this shit will stick.

While Hamas are cocksuckers for hiding weapons among major civilian areas, I can't think of any reason to justify the killing of civilians, the bombing of schools and hospitals. I mean, everyone wants Hamas gone, but the way it's being handled is fanatical at worse.

[QUOTE=Megadave;45571247]While Hamas are cocksuckers for hiding weapons among major civilian areas, I can't think of any reason to justify the killing of civilians, the bombing of schools and hospitals. I mean, everyone wants Hamas gone, but the way it's being handled is fanatical at worse.[/QUOTE] Well that's what happens when Hamas sets up rockets and command bases inside schools and hospitals. You can't expect to eradicate a group like that if you set up "safe zones" for them to hide in and wait for the hunt to end.

[QUOTE=darunner;45572574]Well that's what happens when Hamas sets up rockets and command bases inside schools and hospitals. You can't expect to eradicate a group like that if you set up "safe zones" for them to hide in and wait for the hunt to end.[/QUOTE] Because bombing hospitals and schools obviously won't cause Hamas to become more popular, right?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;45570802]West Bank?[/QUOTE] What about the West Bank? The West Bank isn't ruled by Hamas, isn't firing rockets into Israel and isn't being blockaded. Had the 2005 disengagement been less of a clusterfuck, Israel would have probably disengaged from most of the West Bank as well, most settlements included. Instead, here we are.

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45572828]What about the West Bank? The West Bank isn't ruled by Hamas, isn't firing rockets into Israel and isn't being blockaded. Had the 2005 disengagement been less of a clusterfuck, Israel would have probably disengaged from most of the West Bank as well, most settlements included. Instead, here we are.[/QUOTE] Are you honestly pretending that Israel doesn't shit all over the West Bank? This entire conflict started because Israel was shitting over Hamas in the West Bank for the murders they didn't even do.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;45571204]It is like whenever the US says something that can be perceived slightly critical of Israel, Obama always has to quickly balance it out with 20 deluded statements in favor of Israel. Israel shells a beach where four kids are just playing, any other country would receive untold international sanctions, shells multiple UN shelters/hospitals with officials testifying no Hamas presence and even Israel's own designated evacuation shelters. Yesterday, in retaliation (a soft way of saying a revenge attack), Israel bombs the shit out of a city after hearing one of their soldiers [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/01/israel-bombards-rafah-soldier-disappears-gaza-ceasefire-collapse"]may have been kidnapped[/URL]. But now they are saying they aren't too sure if he was really detained and [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1414341"]may have actually just died prior[/URL]. Israel's policy of state sponsored terrorism (the use of political violence/intimidation for goals) to force the Palestinians into submission is why we see innocent people getting killed, and Obama's attempt to be an apologist for it makes him equally complicit. Whatever move Obama continues to do in order to soften his image for future history, this shit will stick.[/QUOTE] I am (legitimately) curious what you think should be done to solve the whole situation.

[QUOTE=Gentry;45572990]Are you honestly pretending that Israel doesn't shit all over the West Bank? This entire conflict started because Israel was shitting over Hamas in the West Bank for the murders they didn't even do.[/QUOTE] Can you read? He simply stated some facts. 1) Hamas doesn't control the West Bank; 2) Rockets aren't fired from the West Bank; 3) Israel has retreated on most of its settlements in the West Bank.

[QUOTE=Gentry;45572990]Are you honestly pretending that Israel doesn't shit all over the West Bank? This entire conflict started because Israel was shitting over Hamas in the West Bank for the murders they didn't even do.[/QUOTE] No, I'm not. Israel [B]is[/B] shitting all over the West Bank. But it isn't blockading it or attacking it at the moment. Look, I can't keep tracking the responses here all over the place. See what I was replying to. About the murders: Hamas neither approved nor denied they were responsible, but they praised the abductions. Yes, a BBC reporter said that an Israeli official twitted that Hamas was not responsible. That's not exactly rock solid proof exonerating Hamas. I couldn't find too many reliable sources reporting this. This is what I know about the abductions: Hamas leadership probably did not give a direct order to a specific operative to go and abduct Israeli teenagers that specific day. That much is true, and has been said outright by Israeli spokespeople and politicians since day one. However, Hamas has a standing order to all members to bring in Israeli civilians and soldiers to be held captive and traded for Palestinian prisoners. That fact has been well known since before Gilad Shalit was abducted, and has been declared outright by Hamas leaders as a promise to their people and a threat to Israel many times over. Abductions for prisoner release. Which is way, much like when Shalit was abducted, Hamas leadership may have not even known about it initially. However, the faction responsible for the abduction would have delivered the hostages/bodies to Hamas contacts, and Hamas would have immediately taken over both guarding them and negotiating with Israel. Again, just like with Shalit. Which is why Israel's first move was to disrupt the operation by shaking down Hamas operatives, denying the kidnappers the ability to deliver to Hamas and forcing them to dump the bodies and run. For the record, Israel doesn't declare missing persons, soldiers or civilian dead until they are %100 sure they are. Which is why even when there's a very high likelihood they didn't survive, as in the case of the three captives that started the Lebanon war in 2006 or the captured IDF officer now, Israel can't declare them dead. As a result, organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas can and will demand a high price for them and will not allow any proof of life until the trade even if negotiations take years, as they did both for Shalit (who was alive) and the Lebanon captives (who were not). [editline]2nd August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=PolarEventide;45573078]Can you read? He simply stated some facts. 1) Hamas doesn't control the West Bank; 2) Rockets aren't fired from the West Bank; 3) Israel has retreated on most of its settlements in the West Bank.[/QUOTE] Israel has retreated on all of its settlements in the Gaza. Israel would have retreated from the West bank unilaterally as well but the Gaza retreat failed so spectacularly that we didn't, unfortunately.

[QUOTE=darunner;45572574]Well that's what happens when Hamas sets up rockets and command bases inside schools and hospitals. You can't expect to eradicate a group like that if you set up "safe zones" for them to hide in and wait for the hunt to end.[/QUOTE] Shelling a building full of injured and sick people isn't the way to do it. If you have very good intelligence that they are being used as bases, the only really acceptable way to deal with it is to send in soldiers to clear the building. It is time consuming, costly and more dangerous, but that is not enough to justify blowing up civilians in the hope you might hurt a militant. Hamas shouldn't use them but if you are killing 5 civilians including one child for every militant you think you've killed, you've fucked up. Israel has huge funding and international recognition, so they can afford to follow international law.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;45571204] Israel shells a beach where four kids are just playing, any other country would receive untold international sanctions, shells multiple UN shelters/hospitals with officials testifying no Hamas presence and even Israel's own designated evacuation shelters. Yesterday, in retaliation (a soft way of saying a revenge attack), Israel bombs the shit out of a city after hearing one of their soldiers [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/01/israel-bombards-rafah-soldier-disappears-gaza-ceasefire-collapse"]may have been kidnapped[/URL]. But now they are saying they aren't too sure if he was really detained and [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1414341"]may have actually just died prior[/URL]. [/QUOTE] About hospitals, I know you like ignoring any evidence to the contrary but, again, [URL="http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rockets-are-launched-from-Gazan-side-into-Israel-says-foreign-journalist-369804"]AHEM[/URL]. As for the kidnapped IDF soldier, you're twisting it as usual. The soldier [B]is[/B] still considered missing but after sufficient time of investigating the scene of the attack the IDF assumes he most likely didn't survive the suicide bombing. However, as stated above, the IDF can't declare him officially dead if they are not %100, which is why if Hamas has him they will bargain for him as if he's alive. As for the shelling of Rafah, it's probably the Hannibal protocol. A pretty brutal IDF protocol that is supposedly put into action if a soldier is abducted and is intended to deny the abduction at all costs. Supposedly a dead soldier is preferable to a hostage. Rafah is near the Egyptian border and they didn't want him to be smuggled into Egypt. So yeah.

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45573199]As for the shelling of Rafah, it's probably the Hannibal protocol. A pretty brutal IDF protocol that is supposedly put into action if a soldier is abducted and is intended to deny the abduction at all costs. Supposedly a dead soldier is preferable to a hostage. Rafah is near the Egyptian border and they didn't want him to be smuggled into Egypt. So yeah.[/QUOTE] That's pretty fucking insanely evil.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45573340]That's pretty fucking insanely evil.[/QUOTE] Would you rather be tortured or simply put out of your misery? Hamas doesn't play by ethical rules. Knowing them, they're probably doing unimaginable things to him. Branding, cutting off fingers, going for his eyes, etc. The alternative is sending in a retrieval team to what's likely hooked up to a few hundred explosives-- Hamas has shown that negotiations (such as ceasefires) are entirely useless, and unfortunately, there's no real good way to negotiate with people this far off the loose end. It's an act of mercy and also one which spares lives-- unfortunate, but Israel doesn't have many choices.

[QUOTE=Monkah;45573394]Would you rather be tortured or simply put out of your misery? Hamas doesn't play by ethical rules. Knowing them, they're probably doing unimaginable things to him. Branding, cutting off fingers, going for his eyes, etc. The alternative is sending in a retrieval team to what's likely hooked up to a few hundred explosives-- Hamas has shown that negotiations (such as ceasefires) are entirely useless, and unfortunately, there's no real good way to negotiate with people this far off the loose end. It's an act of mercy and also one which spares lives-- unfortunate, but Israel doesn't have many choices.[/QUOTE] typical that you only think of the soldier and not the dozens of civilians that were killed in the shelling of Rafah, Gilad Shalit was in Hamas captivity for a very long time and he wasn't tortured.

[QUOTE=Monkah;45573394]Would you rather be tortured or simply put out of your misery? Hamas doesn't play by ethical rules. Knowing them, they're probably doing unimaginable things to him. Branding, cutting off fingers, going for his eyes, etc. The alternative is sending in a retrieval team to what's likely hooked up to a few hundred explosives-- Hamas has shown that negotiations (such as ceasefires) are entirely useless, and unfortunately, there's no real good way to negotiate with people this far off the loose end. It's an act of mercy and also one which spares lives-- unfortunate, but Israel doesn't have many choices.[/QUOTE] No Hamas are totally gentlemen that would never dream of doing something like that or killing civilians they suspect to be working for Israel.

[QUOTE=Monkah;45573394]Would you rather be tortured or simply put out of your misery? Hamas doesn't play by ethical rules. Knowing them, they're probably doing unimaginable things to him. Branding, cutting off fingers, going for his eyes, etc. The alternative is sending in a retrieval team to what's likely hooked up to a few hundred explosives-- Hamas has shown that negotiations (such as ceasefires) are entirely useless, and unfortunately, there's no real good way to negotiate with people this far off the loose end. It's an act of mercy and also one which spares lives-- unfortunate, but Israel doesn't have many choices.[/QUOTE] [url]http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/12/a-year-after-his-release-freed-israeli-soldier-discloses-details-of-hamas-captivity-in-gaza/[/url] [quote=Israeli documentary posted] In the transcript, [B]Shalit said his captors fed him well, played chess and dominoes with him,[/B] and “[B]hardly abused me[/B].” He said they let him watch Arabic news on TV, and he started to pick up a little Arabic. Later he was given a radio, which he used to listen to Israeli news. He said he and his captors would sometimes share a laugh watching televised sports matches and movies together.[/quote] Dislike linking to the right-wing JPost, but you know the veracity is real when even they do not omit this part: [url]http://www.jpost.com/Features/In-Thespotlight/Gilad-Schalits-capture-in-his-own-words-Part-II-308198[/url] [quote=Israeli documentary/JPost] Captured Israeli soldier [B]stated that he was treated well[/B], that he watched all the World Cup games on television, and that he sat on the roof of the family he was with and looked at the Mediterranean as though he was on holiday.[/quote] Sounds exactly like described! [editline] /mossad [/editline] Definitely worth bombing an entire city that he was suspected to be in proximity of though.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;45573466][url]http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/12/a-year-after-his-release-freed-israeli-soldier-discloses-details-of-hamas-captivity-in-gaza/[/url] [/QUOTE] Yeah, and that's when Israel was willing to trade one man for one thousand Hamas prisoners. If they tortured the guy to insanity, he wouldn't be of much trading use anymore. As I literally [I]just said,[/I] Israel isn't willing to negotiate anymore because Hamas has not held up their end of the deal in various negotiations. At this point, if Hamas takes a hostage, they aren't expecting prisoners-- they're expecting information. [B]Are you really trying to imply that Hamas is some civil organization?[/B]

[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45573199]About hospitals, I know you like ignoring any evidence to the contrary but, again, [URL="http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rockets-are-launched-from-Gazan-side-into-Israel-says-foreign-journalist-369804"]AHEM[/URL].[/QUOTE] [quote=Journalist]Don’t use me as your propaganda weapon I spent a night at the Shifa hospital in Gaza two weeks ago. I was covering the situation in Gaza for my newspaper. My story was about the Palestinian civilians who were victims of war. My article started with a story of four little boys who were killed on the beach the same day. They were playing on the beach when Israeli army hit them without any clear reason or warning. I interviewed a boy who survived from the attack. The Shifa hospital was full of women and children who were victims of this ugly war. I described their stories in detail. During the night someone launched a rocket somewhere behind the hospital. [B]Now this sentence from my article is spreading in the pro-Israeli medias[/B]. I mentioned this in my article because I’m a professional journalist. I try to cover the events truthfully as I see them and I strongly condemn these kind of actions. [B] But I find it very disgusting how this one sentence was taken out contex[/B]t to be used as an excuse to target civilians in Gaza. My story became quickly a tool of propaganda. The people sharing this story are not even trying to understand the situation as a whole. They are just looking for excuses to Israeli actions in Gaza[B]. I refuse to be part of this kind of propaganda.[/B][/quote] Nothing is funnier than seeing a summary refutation in the very own source provided. Remind me why some people still perceive JPost as a legitimate news source.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;45573593]Nothing is funnier than seeing a summary refutation in the very own source provided. Remind me why some people still perceive JPost as a legitimate news source.[/QUOTE] That's not refutation. She didn't deny what she reported. She merely wished for it not to be used as part of the war of narratives. Well, tough. There [B]is[/B] a war of narratives, and she just reported that one side was lying. [editline]2nd August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;45573340]That's pretty fucking insanely evil.[/QUOTE] Yup.