Spotted a similar thread on Pistonheads which raised a good point, well for the EU market anyway.
[quote= PH Thread]
Hi all. Me and a guy at work have just been trying to name diesel cars that are not forced induction. I know they exist because my sister's lacklustre Peugeot is a non turbocharged 1.9 diesel but to be honest we couldn't name that many.
Now, it seems under pressure of emissions regulations becoming more and more stringent; economy becoming increasingly important and car's becoming increasingly larger and heavier that engineers are having to make engines more economical, "cleaner" and more powerful all at the same time. You only have to look at the VAG TSi engines to see how small capacity engines are progressing. And it seems that forced induction, in everyday cars at least, will soon become to rule rather than the exception...
I put it to the PH faithful do you ever think there will be a day, and how far away is that day, that Normally Aspirated engines in everyday cars (and maybe in your supercars too) will become a thing of the past and virtually everything will become turbo/supercharged or rely on some sort of advanced VVT system, rather than "traditional" NA engines? Seems to me as a shame, but in many ways probably an inevitability in the long term...
[/quote]
Summed up: The majority of manufacturers keep striving to reduce emissions and raise fuel economy whilst squeezing more power from their engines and forced induction is the most straightforward way of doing this. We are seeing a lot of small cap engines with turbos such as 1.4T and 1.6T with Renault even offering a 1.2T pushing out 100bhp whilst returning pretty impressive MPG for the power.
Vauxhall have discontinued their 1.8 and 2.0 NA engines and replaced them with 1.4 and 1.6T respectivley. So it seems to be that the future could be manufacturers replacing their bigger block engines with smaller block turbo'd units. Maybe more manufacturers will start rolling out variable valve timing across their engines to achieve similar results but the trend seems to be that the everyday NA cars will die out and be replaced by the smaller engine turbo'd ones...In the EU anyways, due to boring regulations.
everyday N/A engines suck
turbo's are cool mmkay?
The only "cool" N/A engines, i.e. F20C, K20xx, various BMW engines, and supercar N/A engines, will most likely still be made in future forms.
[editline]11th March 2011[/editline]
i know im forgetting a ton of engines, calm down, i was just giving a crude example
I hope N/A engines live, I can't stand the inconsistent power curve of Turbo'd cars, I much prefer superchargers for FI.
Agreed, you can't beat the throttle response of NA which is where a supercharger would be best used but fuel economy from a supercharger isn't as good as a turbo and unfortunatley, the main thing on manufacturer's mind at the minute is fuel economy.
[QUOTE=sam.clarke;28548513]Agreed, you can't beat the throttle response of NA which is where a supercharger would be best used but fuel economy from a supercharger isn't as good as a turbo and unfortunatley, the main thing on manufacturer's mind at the minute is fuel economy.[/QUOTE]
Well on a roots/positive displacement supercharger yes. I think that a centerfugal supercharger has the same boost curve as a turbo (So the same efficiency) without the need for complex exhaust setups. I think they would add to the reliability of FI setups.
Centrifugal superchargers are not as efficient as turbochargers, but you are correct that they have simple installation. However, they put a lot of stress on the serpentine belt, and its related pulleys.
What about a turbo+supercharged engine. Would be amazing for a manufacturer to produce them.
There is so many things you can do to a engine. Fuel injection, any kind of turbo, coil on plug ignition, Stronger head bolts to support more presure, hemi heads, DOHC, different fuels, list goes on.
I think they should experiment with methanol engines. It's alot more friendly to the environment (though I don't care about that), it's cheap, around half the price of gas. [url]http://www2.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF9/962.html[/url] article on the pros and cons.
Turbocharging [i]and[/i] supercharging is a bit redundant. Supercharging can only compress air at a certain PSI per RPM, turbochargers have the potential to build extra pressure because they aren't directly driven. If the air is pre-boosted past the pressure that the supercharger compresses it, you may get compressor surge on the turbochargers, effectively annihilating the compressor wheel.
It's a good idea if you want to run an engine off of bits of turbocharger innards. Otherwise stick to one method.
[QUOTE=Valon Kyre;28553711]What about a turbo+supercharged engine. Would be amazing for a manufacturer to produce them.
There is so many things you can do to a engine. Fuel injection, any kind of turbo, coil on plug ignition, Stronger head bolts to support more presure, hemi heads, DOHC, different fuels, list goes on.
I think they should experiment with methanol engines. It's alot more friendly to the environment (though I don't care about that), it's cheap, around half the price of gas. [url]http://www2.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF9/962.html[/url] article on the pros and cons.[/QUOTE]
Don't VW already produce them with their TSI engines?
[QUOTE=sam.clarke;28560477]Don't VW already produce them with their TSI engines?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, they do. The Nissan March Super Turbo also had a twincharged engine.
[QUOTE=bradley;28554322]Turbocharging [i]and[/i] supercharging is a bit redundant. Supercharging can only compress air at a certain PSI per RPM, turbochargers have the potential to build extra pressure because they aren't directly driven. If the air is pre-boosted past the pressure that the supercharger compresses it, you may get compressor surge on the turbochargers, effectively annihilating the compressor wheel.
It's a good idea if you want to run an engine off of bits of turbocharger innards. Otherwise stick to one method.[/QUOTE]
No sir. The supercharger (Roots type) provides low end boost where a turbo could not, at a relatively low boost level, while a massive turbo spools giving you insane high end. In concept its amazing, you just need high quality parts.
[QUOTE=NecroTitan;28579033]No sir. The supercharger (Roots type) provides low end boost where a turbo could not, at a relatively low boost level, while a massive turbo spools giving you insane high end. In concept its amazing, you just need high quality parts.[/QUOTE]
I know, I've seen it work before. But generally those who are like "Oh, that would be cool" are going to be the ones who wouldn't use a good enough quality setup for the job. Basically, it's something that should be left to the professionals. It isn't an easy thing to "rig up".
[QUOTE=MikeL14;28585553]Compound turbos.
[img_thumb]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/623593/imadsfdfges.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE]
There is also such a thing as a turbo-compound engine, which is completely different, but also pretty cool.
I only heard of it talking to a guy who had flown co-pilot on one of the last lockheed constellations in service. The engine is still naturally aspirated (although I think the constellation also has a supercharger), the turbine puts power back into the engine mechanically through the crankshaft, wikipedia says it recovered around 500 hp and was very unreliable. The guy I talked to says they had disconnected the system completely because of that.
Rolls Royce did something kind of like that way back when. They built a Rotary Diesel with no turbo/supercharger. Rotaries generally don't have the compression to ignite diesel, so Rolls built a supercharger into the motor to compress the air before it entered the actual combustion chamber. Pretty much a double rotary, self boosting diesel.
honestly, N/A engine will still be produced forever. Why?
who need a turbo in their yaris?
people who buy new econobox like corolla, accent, mazda3 and such. They don't care about performance, they want reliability, fuel economy and tons of cheap-ass accessory and they want it CHEAP, turbos are not cheap, they take place, require more piping/vaccum/downpipe and a ecu that can drive them. Plus turbos require lower compression to prevent detonation under boost, lower compression=lower efficiency when not under boost.
you'll end up with a not so easy on gas, not powerful when not boosting, unreliable (you'll need oil squirter under the pistons) and more expensive car.
Don't take me wrong, I LOVE TURBOS (I have a supra turbo) but they're not good for everyday uses. the only cars I can think of (which make good uses of DD and turbos) are volvos
Just make the turbos so tiny that you are always under boost. Like diesels.
turbos so tiny they run out of power before redline
Ours already do that. But I'm talking econo-turbos. They would run out of power before 3500 rpm.
[QUOTE=lemon_lover;28643755]turbos so tiny they run out of power before redline[/QUOTE]
And this, folks, is why I'm building a compound setup for my wagon. I want to be in boost ALL THE FUCKING TIME, but I want MORE BOOST when I put the BOOST PEDAL down to make BOOST.
Yo dawg we heard you like boost so we put some turbos on your turbo so you can boost while you boost.
Yo dawg we heard you like boost so we installed a turbo on the car you're stealing so you can boost while you're boosting.
At first I didn't get it but then I remembered Gone in 60 Seconds... "I boost cars"
Love that movie.
[QUOTE=MikeL14;28644472]At first I didn't get it but then I remembered Gone in 60 Seconds... "I boost cars"[/QUOTE]
Or you could have watched F&F
"Dom: What about those two years you did in juvie for boosting cars? Tucson, right? I had Jesse run a little background check on you, Mr. Brian Earl Spilner."
I think forced injection cars just don't sound pure
it's all in the sound you like
whether it's big turbo's
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIkB6Zl1wc8[/media]
huge blowers
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87n8jhVO784[/media]
or a N/A screamer
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxXb9JYYFfI&feature=related[/media]
[QUOTE=fishyfish777;28646301]I think forced injection cars just don't sound pure[/QUOTE]
what is forced injection
[QUOTE=lemon_lover;28646478]whether it's big turbo's
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIkB6Zl1wc8[/media][/QUOTE]
I was going to post that in the cool car vids thread lol! spinning is winning
Darin's a beast. You know after he's done banging on this
[img]http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4073/6medfc1.jpg[/img]
he's banging on this
[img]http://turboneticsinc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/jessica-barton-lvms.jpg[/img]
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