Japanese Politicians fight in Parliament over Bill to allow troops to fight abroad - Polidicks

[QUOTE][QUOTE][video=youtube;59LysAEZfAo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59LysAEZfAo[/video] [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/17/japanese-politicians-brawl-in-parliament-over-bill-to-allow-troops-to-fight-abroad#comments[/url][/QUOTE] Japanese politicians scuffled on Thursday during a heated debate over a security bill that could see the military fight abroad for the first time in decades, after thousands rallied to voice their anger. In scenes uncommon for Japan’s normally sedate parliament, members of the opposition and the ruling coalition pushed and shoved each other as a committee chairman was surrounded. Tensions fan high after the committee vote was repeatedly delayed over Wednesday night, as opposition MPs blocked doorways and packed the corridors of parliament in protest. Tens of thousands of people have taken to the streets to vent their anger during almost daily rallies over the past weeks, a show of public feeling on a scale rarely seen in Japan.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Under the planned changes, the military – known as the self-defence forces – would have the option of going into battle to protect allies such as the United States even if there was no direct threat to Japan or its people. ...There are growing signs the bills have taken a toll on Abe’s once high popularity. Opinion polls show most voters oppose them. [/QUOTE] Its good to see people getting passionate over political stuff. Honestly kinda support Abe though. They already have a huge force and I really doubt we'll be seeing an Imperialistic Japan.

"To protect allies such as the United States"? Yeah right - as if the USA needs protecting. More like to protect their interests.

Eh, Abe is nationalist trash with links to far-rightists.

[QUOTE=David29;48702746]"To protect allies such as the United States"? Yeah right - as if the USA needs protecting. More like to protect their interests.[/QUOTE] The USA has the same agreement with Japan. It would only make sense for them to be able to reciprocate.

Ah yes, what a fantastic idea! Let's take our young men out of their daily lives and send them overseas, where they can't contribute to our already plummeting birth-rate! Let's reduce the chance of us fixing our population imbalance any more by getting them killed abroad! Stupidity.

Abe should realize that his country has no appetite or desire to send its young men and women abroad to fight for vague reasons against enemies that pose little to no domestic threat to Japanese security.

[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;48703596]Abe should realize that his country has no appetite or desire to send its young men and women abroad to fight for vague reasons against enemies that pose little to no domestic threat to Japanese security.[/QUOTE] It's not as if allowing their troops to go into other theaters explicitly binds them to having to go to those theaters. The country still has the option to not send troops anywhere. It goes beyond reciprocating what every other nation does for japan. They have a pretty hostile neighbor, and most of their veteran soldiers have never seen combat. In the actual event of hostilities against the country most of their troops have no actual experience in combat what so ever.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;48703465]Ah yes, what a fantastic idea! Let's take our young men out of their daily lives and send them overseas, where they can't contribute to our already plummeting birth-rate! Let's reduce the chance of us fixing our population imbalance any more by getting them killed abroad! Stupidity.[/QUOTE] The only stupidity I'm seeing is your post by correlating Japan's birth rate to this article. Do you know how many Americans died between OEF and OIF? A few thousand even though we were the largest force im the operations. Of course a few thousand lives is always too many but hardly on the scale of WW2 or WW1 for example. This proposal wouldn't even see Japan conducting combat operations like the USA, they don't have the manpower or resources for it. My point is that if Japan were able to provide more support under the provisions the amount of lives that would be potentially lost is completely negligible to the 'birth problem'. Not to mention the "young men being taken out of their daily lives" would be already serving since they're an all volunteer force...it's their job to do shit like that.

Japan's biggest enemy right now is it's own culture. Find a way to get your citizens to reproduce.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;48703465]Ah yes, what a fantastic idea! Let's take our young men out of their daily lives and send them overseas, where they can't contribute to our already plummeting birth-rate! Let's reduce the chance of us fixing our population imbalance any more by getting them killed abroad! Stupidity.[/QUOTE] you are aware that the military is more then just combat roles right? japan can literally just be intel gathering and more back end support.

Oh, yeah, I remember this shit from two years ago, [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1295130"]when the Deputy Prime Minister complained about how slow and discussion-laden the process of un-muzzling the JSDF was and how Japan could learn a thing or two from the [I]Nazis[/I] about constitutional transitions[/URL]. Even if you look past the Godwin's Law aspect (he apologized, and the comparison was specifically about the smooth transition from the Weimar Constitution to the Nazi Constitution, not anything Nazis did to Jews/rest of Europe), [B]that's even more of a reason to slow the fuck down on the debate[/B]. Making a constitutional amendment that changes the scope of the national military away from one of the giant pillars that post-war reconstructionism and international diplomacy rested on should [B]not[/B] be smooth and efficient. I'm not saying they can't do it; far be it from me to say what Japan can and can't do with its military, lol. But holy fuck this is definitely something you want to talk about carefully and get the people on board with before you push it through.

[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;48703596]Abe should realize that his country has no appetite or desire to send its young men and women abroad to fight for vague reasons against enemies that pose little to no domestic threat to Japanese security.[/QUOTE] It's a nececary step to not sucking american dick 24/7. Also actually having an army would change the social life. In what way we can barely predict though.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48704133]It's a nececary step to not sucking american dick 24/7. Also actually having an army would change the social life. In what way we can barely predict though.[/QUOTE] Umm, even if they get the ability to send their military over seas, that wouldn't chance Sino-American relations at all because over time since WWII the American and Japanese governments have had a good relationship with each other surprisingly. Also in terms of the "these young foolish men are going to die because blah blah philisophy", I retort with this. At the end of the day, what these young men choose to do, is their motherfucking choices. If they don't want to go die in the middle of a desert that's fine, they can just not enlist. If they understand that death is a risk of joining the military as well as being sent to current conflicts in the world then that's also THEIR choice. No internet forum can ever chance that simple fact at all, simply because some of us seemingly either have a distaste for war, or for America for some reason.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48704133]It's a nececary step to not sucking american dick 24/7.[/QUOTE] It's actually the opposite, the LDP has always been America's lap dog and this is no different. America wants Japan to be able to exert military pressure in areas like the South China Sea as part of the "pivot to Asia". Concurrently, America and the LDP are pushing for moving the military base at Futenma, Okinawa to another location [i]within[/i] Okinawa despite most Okinawans wanting it out. LDP is one if the few parties who don't support Okinawans on this issue. There are other US military bases on Okinawa but Futenma is notable for its urban location. This is more important to US policy than anyone else's.

[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48704516]It's actually the opposite, the LDP has always been America's lap dog and this is no different. America wants Japan to be able to exert military pressure in areas like the South China Sea as part of the "pivot to Asia". Concurrently, America and the LDP are pushing for moving the military base at Futenma, Okinawa to another location [i]within[/i] Okinawa despite most Okinawans wanting it out. LDP is one if the few parties who don't support Okinawans on this issue. There are other US military bases on Okinawa but Futenma is notable for its urban location. This is more important to US policy than anyone else's.[/QUOTE] They've already begun building the base, it's located in Henoko in Nago-shi next to Camp Schwab.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48704264]Umm, even if they get the ability to send their military over seas, that wouldn't chance Sino-American relations at all because over time since WWII the American and Japanese governments have had a good relationship with each other surprisingly. Also in terms of the "these young foolish men are going to die because blah blah philisophy", I retort with this. At the end of the day, what these young men choose to do, is their motherfucking choices. If they don't want to go die in the middle of a desert that's fine, they can just not enlist. If they understand that death is a risk of joining the military as well as being sent to current conflicts in the world then that's also THEIR choice. No internet forum can ever chance that simple fact at all, simply because some of us seemingly either have a distaste for war, or for America for some reason.[/QUOTE] I'm not implying the soldiers are doing the choice; it's the nationalistic members of government, who, as jA-cOp said, are doing this as a means to help extend U.S. Foreign policy in Asia, not define a new Japanese one. The Japanese constitution written in 1946 has the rejection of violence as a means to resolve international disputes abroad as one of its fundamental tenets, altering it would undermine decades of political progress.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48704645]They've already begun building the base, it's located in Henoko in Nago-shi next to Camp Schwab.[/QUOTE] Various politicians in both Okinawa and Tokyo want the construction halted and talks continued. The Okinawan governor was elected on basically this one issue. My point was that Okinawa is clearly important to US foreign policy. They don't want to retreat to Guam.

[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48704701] My point was that Okinawa is clearly important to US foreign policy. They don't want to retreat to Guam.[/QUOTE] What the US troops based in Okinawa do to the local people is criminal.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48705297]What the US troops based in Okinawa do to the local people is criminal.[/QUOTE] There were a number of rape incidents involving Marines and the locals a number of years ago which put a very bad blight on the US Military's imagery there. Last I checked, commands in Okinawa are doing their best to clamp down on things from happening again, even enforcing curfews for enlisted personnel and limiting drinks to the equivalent of either 2 beers or a single shot. That and along with 'noise complaints' from military craft and such.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48705297]What the US troops based in Okinawa do to the local people is criminal.[/QUOTE] Hahah you don't know anything. There have been about 2 high profile rapes within the last 20 years, most recent in 2012 but other than that what do you think goes on there??? Savage Marines prowling the night raping every single Japanese woman they come across? You've know idea what it's really like, don't make naive generalized uninformed statements like that. People might actually believe you here. [editline]17th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=CabooseRvB;48705320]There were a number of rape incidents involving Marines and the locals a number of years ago which put a very bad blight on the US Military's imagery there. Last I checked, commands in Okinawa are doing their best to clamp down on things from happening again, even enforcing curfews for enlisted personnel and limiting drinks to the equivalent of either 2 beers or a single shot. That and along with 'noise complaints' from military craft and such.[/QUOTE] MCIPAC curfew is 0100 for E-5 and below, no curfew for E-6 and above. You can drink as much as you want wherever you want. Of course commands have their own discretion but Camp Butler generally follows the MCIPAX rules, also same for USFJ. [editline]17th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=jA_cOp;48704701]Various politicians in both Okinawa and Tokyo want the construction halted and talks continued. The Okinawan governor was elected on basically this one issue. My point was that Okinawa is clearly important to US foreign policy. They don't want to retreat to Guam.[/QUOTE] Of course, I'm all for moving Futenma up to mainland but everything else is there to stay.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48705381]Hahah you don't know anything. There have been about 2 high profile rapes within the last 20 years, most recent in 2012 but other than that what do you think goes on there??? Savage Marines prowling the night raping every single Japanese woman they come across? You've know idea what it's really like, don't make naive generalized uninformed statements like that. People might actually believe you here. [/QUOTE] Agreed, statistically it is a non-issue. It's completely ridiculous to paint US servicemen as some kind of menace.

[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48705442]Agreed, statistically it is a non-issue. It's completely ridiculous to paint US servicemen as some kind of menace.[/QUOTE] The only menace we are to them is stealing their women, I know because I married one >:)

They should all stop their whining about letting their military branch out from a defense-force, it only makes sense as of now with China being a dick to Japan.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48705381]Hahah you don't know anything. There have been about 2 high profile rapes within the last 20 years, most recent in 2012 but other than that what do you think goes on there??? Savage Marines prowling the night raping every single Japanese woman they come across? You've know idea what it's really like, don't make naive generalized uninformed statements like that. People might actually believe you here.[/QUOTE] 2 high profile ones. Ones that got coverage. However violence, rape and theft are common and go uncovered. There's a reason the Japanese create "Japanese only" stores and restaurants. Its not just annoying tourists.

[QUOTE=puppy156;48708856]They should all stop their whining about letting their military branch out from a defense-force, it only makes sense as of now with China being a dick to Japan.[/QUOTE] Actually, China is being a dick to Vietnam and the Phillipines. Not so much Japan. The Senkaku/Diaoyu dispute is completely ridiculous if you examine the history and current motives.

Being one of the most peaceful, low crime countries with one of the highest standard of living is not something to throw away, japan.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48708979]2 high profile ones. Ones that got coverage. However violence, rape and theft are common and go uncovered.[/QUOTE] Oh really? Did you get that from 2channel? [QUOTE=Rangergxi;48708979]There's a reason the Japanese create "Japanese only" stores and restaurants. Its not just annoying tourists.[/QUOTE] "The Japanese"? Please, there's no justification for policies like that and they're super rare. In Okinawa, businesses generally welcome the US bases because they generate a lot of revenue (edit: although [url=http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/05/17/national/politics-diplomacy/economics-u-s-base-redevelopment-sway-okinawa-mindset/]they could be wrong[/url]).

My brother was a marine in Oki, and he said that about once or twice a year some marine would get drunk and either rape a girl or do some other stupid shit and as a result marines would be banned from going off base or drinking off base for a while until the protesters died down a little bit

[QUOTE=proboardslol;48709067]My brother was a marine in Oki, and he said that about once or twice a year some marine would get drunk and either rape a girl or do some other stupid shit and as a result marines would be banned from going off base or drinking off base for a while until the protesters died down a little bit[/QUOTE] Liberty on Okinawa is always a gamble for any military branch out here, because a single incident has potential to cause a major political fallout. For instance, even if an Air Force member raped a young girl, the Marines- I know for sure- are locked down until the higher brass can sort things out. Protesters are out daily on some bases wanting the Marines gone and it's practically a daily discussion trying to justify our presence out here. [QUOTE=Rangergxi;48708979]2 high profile ones. Ones that got coverage. However violence, rape and theft are common and go uncovered. There's a reason the Japanese create "Japanese only" stores and restaurants. Its not just annoying tourists.[/QUOTE] You're greatly misinformed. As 'common' as you may believe, they're handled by the chain of command and the higher brass where often times the person is either sent to the brig or processed out of the military depending on the severity of their crime. The military takes these things seriously and have strict liberty policies to prevent such incidents as much as possible. I know of several people who have been in such positions, but it wasn't severe enough to put us on lock down.

japan should be allowed to have a standing army again but their ultranationalists are disgusting