[video=youtube;Vp4-9G47uF0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp4-9G47uF0[/video]
Hopefully this hasn't been posted before (I tried the search, didn't find anything).
It's pretty damn long, but I watched it and found it very interesting as I have never put nearly the amount of hours into Oblivion that I always wanted (I think I only played like 5 hours). It didn't help that my first Bethesda game was Fallout 3, so it felt like a downgrade apart from the obvious change in setting.
I do feel compelled though to install it after this, and experience it myself from start to finish.
Yeah, I've finally bought it for pc and just got around to installing it (after playing through it all on the PS3 ages ago)
I forgot how great this game can be even from the start:
[t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/862852298937572607/3A9803A4189A61E0CD8F1238240DDFDEA307A95D/[/t]
It's a great experience, shivering isles was a great expansion
[QUOTE=Pie_Tony;52409824]Yeah, I've finally bought it for pc and just got around to installing it (after playing through it all on the PS3 ages ago)
I forgot how great this game can be even from the start:
[t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/862852298937572607/3A9803A4189A61E0CD8F1238240DDFDEA307A95D/[/t]
It's a great experience, shivering isles was a great expansion[/QUOTE]
Great experience indeed:
[t]http://i.imgur.com/d0YJx9T.jpg[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/HMhKAxV.png[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/nhDXKEo.jpg[/t]
holy shit 5 hours?
[QUOTE=SFArial;52409750]
Hopefully this hasn't been posted before (I tried the search, didn't find anything).
It's pretty damn long, but I watched it and found it very interesting as I have never put nearly the amount of hours into Oblivion that I always wanted (I think I only played like 5 hours). It didn't help that my first Bethesda game was Fallout 3, so it felt like a downgrade apart from the obvious change in setting.
I do feel compelled though to install it after this, and experience it myself from start to finish.[/QUOTE]
You played the game for 5 hours and then later watched a 5 hour retrospective?
i'm glad he pointed out the flaws with morrowind and oblivion's skill and leveling systems because after skyrim came out people wouldn't shut up about how they were much better than skyrim's even though they weren't
the old FP elder scrolls thread were huge circlejerks about how extreme class railroading and min-max metagaming are mandatory RPG staples
[QUOTE=Jund;52410243]i'm glad he pointed out the flaws with morrowind and oblivion's skill and leveling systems because after skyrim came out people wouldn't shut up about how they were much better than skyrim's even though they weren't
the old FP elder scrolls thread were huge circlejerks about how extreme class railroading and min-max metagaming were mandatory RPG staples[/QUOTE]
The problem with Oblivion's levelling system is heavily tied to its monster scaling system. It actually works just fine in Morrowind but is still a problem in Skyrim, where the game can become an frustrating mess if you decide to level non-combat skills, or magic.
[QUOTE=Xron;52410055]You played the game for 5 hours and then later watched a 5 hour retrospective?[/QUOTE]
I don't know why, it just kinda happened.
[QUOTE=Jund;52410243]i'm glad he pointed out the flaws with morrowind and oblivion's skill and leveling systems because after skyrim came out people wouldn't shut up about how they were much better than skyrim's even though they weren't
the old FP elder scrolls thread were huge circlejerks about how extreme class railroading and min-max metagaming were mandatory RPG staples[/QUOTE]
it's not balanced but i think it's more fun as skyrim and fo4 leveling felt like a drip feed. It's especially awful in fo4 because you only get more powerful upon level up and tiering the perks means you really need to invest in the same perks to get anything meaningful.
[editline]29th June 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glent;52410279]The problem with Oblivion's levelling system is heavily tied to its monster scaling system. It actually works just fine in Morrowind but is still a problem in Skyrim, where the game can become an frustrating mess if you decide to level non-combat skills, or magic.[/QUOTE]
i think it's more a lot of gameplay in TES involves full frontal violence without the option for alternate playstyles. Like the combat in the Daedric plane in Oblivion offers very little oppurtunity for stealth play unless you play tag with the enemies (which I did)
It's only less of an issue in Skyrim imo because stealth archer is broken.
[editline]29th June 2017[/editline]
i disagree with radiant AI being unnecessary, while it was super janky in oblivion, he goes on about how game designers are illusionists but then points out that the npcs actually don't do anything during their schedules while also saying that npcs that do nothing but repeat the same animation is fine if they are unimportant.
The schedule system gives the illusion that the NPCs are unique and it especially shines if you play as an assassin or thief and you have to consider when an NPC will be at home or in a certain place. Knowing your target will be walking home alone at a certain time is about as immersive as it gets.
[QUOTE=ashxu;52410407]it's not balanced but i think it's more fun as skyrim and fo4 leveling felt like a drip feed.[/QUOTE]
what does this mean
[editline]28th June 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glent;52410279]The problem with Oblivion's levelling system is heavily tied to its monster scaling system. It actually works just fine in Morrowind but is still a problem in Skyrim, where the game can become an frustrating mess if you decide to level non-combat skills, or magic.[/QUOTE]
it's not even that. extreme class railroading in singleplayer RPG games is bad game design
you're 10-15 hours into a Elder Scrolls game and you realize that the class you're playing isn't fun, or that you aren't doing any damage, or that your stats are fucked because of unlucky rounded down bonuses. too bad, start the game up again and make a new character because otherwise the class and birthsign you selected will force you into continue playing with your shitty character
but neckbeards see this as "tradition" and say that any attempts to fix this is casualizing the genre for babies, and how sitting at your desk pre-planning your entire level progression instead of actually playing the game is fun
[QUOTE=Jund;52410645]what does this mean
[editline]28th June 2017[/editline]
it's not even that. extreme class railroading in singleplayer RPG games is bad game design
you're 10-15 hours into a Elder Scrolls game and you realize that the class you're playing isn't fun, or that you aren't doing any damage, or that your stats are fucked because of unlucky rounded down bonuses. too bad, start the game up again and make a new character because the class and birthsign you selected will force you into continue playing with your shitty character
but neckbeards see this as "tradition" and any attempts to fix this is casualizing the genre for babies, and how sitting at your desk pre-planning your entire level progression instead of actually playing the game is fun[/QUOTE]
but it [i]is[/] more fun. role-playing games (especially the elder scrolls i have found) are not necessarily about the first playthrough, and that is the problem with the streamlining you ask for here - it kills variety in replays. it is incredibly dangerous for such a well-crafted world to go to waste with an rpg system that allows the player to try everything everywhere on the first romp. artificial complexity is better than no complexity - there is a reason why there are a plethora of mods for skyrim that add complexity to the leveling systems in place, even if at a superficial level. new vegas is toted as one of the most successful rpgs in recent years for a reason - it actually allows roleplaying, both in gameplay systems and in dialog. fallout 4 for example, offers barely either of those. it's not a bad game, but role-playing becomes more limited the less numbers and modifiers are at play.
Truth be told, I kinda prefer Fallout 4 and Skyrim's progression primarily based on individual upgrades using level-up points over Oblivion and Morrowind's progression based on a gradual increase of certain skills with levels being just a way to gradually increase different attributes. Making sure that each level gives you a perk makes leveling feel a bit more noteworthy, and it makes it easier to see how much you're progressing. It's easier to notice an upgrade of damage in increments of 20% for five levels than it is to notice an upgrade of damage in increments of 2% for fifty levels.
[QUOTE=eatdembeanz;52410907]Truth be told, I kinda prefer Fallout 4 and Skyrim's progression primarily based on individual upgrades using level-up points over Oblivion and Morrowind's progression based on a gradual increase of certain skills with levels being just a way to gradually increase different attributes. Making sure that each level gives you a perk makes leveling feel a bit more noteworthy, and it makes it easier to see how much you're progressing. It's easier to notice an upgrade of damage in increments of 20% for five levels than it is to notice an upgrade of damage in increments of 2% for fifty levels.[/QUOTE]
I like the perk system when it gives you interesting new abilities.
When it's giving you +20% more damage or what have you, that just takes me out of the game.
[QUOTE=elowin;52411004]I like the perk system when it gives you interesting new abilities.
When it's giving you +20% more damage or what have you, that just takes me out of the game.[/QUOTE]
I never really felt like I needed the +20% perks until much later on. Just keeping my gear upgraded let me maintain damage parity for the vast majority of the game, while I could focus my perk points on being able to add more mods to my guns or double-stacking spells. Contrast that to Oblivion where I needed to blast my Blade skill while also ensuring I got +5 in Strength, Speed, and Endurance every level just to ensure that levels 20 and up weren't tedious clickfests, and it's easy to see why Bethesda "casualized" their character progression.
[QUOTE=elowin;52411004]I like the perk system when it gives you interesting new abilities.
When it's giving you +20% more damage or what have you, that just takes me out of the game.[/QUOTE]
preferably damage would be tied to str/int/dex or whatever and perks/skills would give new techniques and abilities
i'd love to see skills like the ones in dragon's dogma (toned way down of course) but it's incredibly difficult to put flashy melee moves in an Elder Scrolls game because it'll look awful in first person, so we're stuck with heavy attack WASD and MORE DAMAGE perks
Has anyone went back to oblivion?
I haven't played it since it came out
[QUOTE=Jund;52410243]i'm glad he pointed out the flaws with morrowind and oblivion's skill and leveling systems because after skyrim came out people wouldn't shut up about how they were much better than skyrim's even though they weren't
the old FP elder scrolls thread were huge circlejerks about how extreme class railroading and min-max metagaming are mandatory RPG staples[/QUOTE]
Minmaxing etc is the shit that makes RPGs fun imo. I'm all for making creative and elaborate ways to play the game and there should be multiple paths to finish the main quest etc, but if you shove all your points into lockpicking and things like that without taking any consideration on how you're gonna handle combat encounters, then you shouldn't expect to be able to do a gladiator 1v1 fight against a melee expert for example.
Having to put some effort into your character creation and figure out just how you're gonna build your character(even if I agree that there should be many ways to do it) is absolutely the most fun about these games. If you CAN'T fail in this and will always end up with a character that's good enough, that just takes all the roleplaying out of it.
Besides that, Morrowind never had this problem to begin with. There was always some way to make my characters work if I really tried and played well.
[QUOTE=Joffy;52411285]Minmaxing etc is the shit that makes RPGs fun imo. I'm all for making creative and elaborate ways to play the game and there should be multiple paths to finish the main quest etc, but if you shove all your points into lockpicking and things like that without taking any consideration on how you're gonna handle combat encounters, then you shouldn't expect to be able to do a gladiator 1v1 fight against a melee expert for example.[/QUOTE]
yeah but in what kind of game can you do this? i mean, besides the make-believe skyrim strawman that [I]true RPG fans[/I] like to bash on. if you can easily beat a bethesda game with [B]only[/B] maxed out lockpicking i'd sure like to see it
having to read through guides before you even start the game is bad game design, end of story. it doesn't matter how much you like spreadsheets or if min-maxing makes you feel nostalgic. it's a holdover from tabletop RPGs that didn't know what they were doing when they first started, but a very vocal minority will always feel that it's objectively the best way to do things (cough 3.5e)
the point he makes in the video is that having to choose a class and birthsign in oblivion after a tutorial of killing 3 sewer rats railroads the player into a certain playstyle before they even know if those mechanics will be fun 10 hours down the line. in skyrim you can dabble in skills, and if you end up not liking them you can switch without being punished by having to create an entirely new character. sure you can be a master of everything, but that takes hundreds of grinding hours and isn't done by 99.999% of players, so that's a moot point anyway. the only benefit for forcing min-maxing in TES is being able to gloat over plebs who didn't look up how the convoluted bonus systems work, but doing that in a singleplayer game makes you look like an idiot
if anything min-maxing should be optional, but relying on the player to min-max instead of creating a functional and balanced game is shit. some people like their steaks well-done, but in the end they're still shit and it's pointless trying to convince everyone else otherwise
Even if you like that stuff oblivion is still a really bad implementation. It wants to let you do everything but also has classes and non combat skills contributing to levels and enemy scaling and weird attribute point allocation and just what? It doesn't make sense.
Also so many problems from all rpgs can be traced back to leveling systems. It makes me wonder what is the point of it anyway. The best you can hope for is that it is generally balanced to the game, but even then there's just so many factors. Personally i've never truely liked a levelling system in a game, tolerable maybe but nothing more.
It's exactly like Matthewmatosis he even does the whole "I will be going in-depth and mentioning full story spoilers" and all that stuff. Also, damn good video.
wtf i can only think of one movie i've even watched that is even close to this length (full length das boot). why would anyone spend 5 hours watching this holy shit?
[QUOTE=matt000024;52411942]wtf i can only think of one movie i've even watched that is even close to this length (full length das boot). why would anyone spend 5 hours watching this holy shit?[/QUOTE]
i've just had it on in the background as i'm doing other shit, since most of it is audio anyways its like listening to an extra long podcast
[QUOTE=Jund;52410645]
but neckbeards see this as "tradition" and say that any attempts to fix this is casualizing the genre for babies, and how sitting at your desk pre-planning your entire level progression instead of actually playing the game is fun[/QUOTE]
sorry that people [I]do[/I] actually find this fun. i mean, i personally don't, but to dismiss an entire staple of classic RPG's and then to discount people's complaints that their favorite RPG series [I]known[/I] for that staple is pivoting in a different direction is kinda of lame tbh.
[editline]28th June 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=matt000024;52411942]wtf i can only think of one movie i've even watched that is even close to this length (full length das boot). why would anyone spend 5 hours watching this holy shit?[/QUOTE]
i take it you're not a huge podcast listener
huge chunky shit like this that i can zone in and out of between doing other tasks/driving are ideal to me
all youtubers out there pls make 5+ hours of content ty
[QUOTE=matt000024;52411942]wtf i can only think of one movie i've even watched that is even close to this length (full length das boot). why would anyone spend 5 hours watching this holy shit?[/QUOTE]
it's good. in the first hour he's completely laid out what was wrong with oblivion's leveling system in comparison to morrowind and skyrim, discussed the problems with scaling enemies and loot, and has moved on to the importance of engaging the player in worldbuilding without resorting to shoving all the lore into books
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;52412149]sorry that people [I]do[/I] actually find this fun. i mean, i personally don't, but to dismiss an entire staple of classic RPG's and then to discount people's complaints that their favorite RPG series [I]known[/I] for that staple is pivoting in a different direction is kinda of lame tbh.[/QUOTE]
there's nothing wrong with it. i pre-planned all my 3.5e and 5e characters
what is wrong is the smugness that comes from people who believe that pre-planning should be mandatory for all players. they can still fully pre-plan their skyrim characters if they choose to do so, but then they complain that filthy casuals aren't forced to do the same. or that they removed the most important stat from the game, speed
if it's still unintuitive within the first few hours, it's bad video game design. could skyrim have done better with their streamlining? absolutely. but at least it was an attempt at a step forward in the right direction [I]as a video game[/I], instead of walking backwards by making it even [B]more[/B] convoluted than oblivion like some people wanted
some hardcore TES fans still think that having miss chance in 3d games where you manually aim is a good idea, so hell yeah i'm gonna be dismissive of certain opinions
[editline]28th June 2017[/editline]
if having to waste 20 hours making new characters until you find one you like enough to play though the game with is part of the experience, then maybe the experience is dumb
meta-gaming is icing on the cake. icing alone can't fix a poorly made cake
I wish they had a more complex, but also more realistic system of learning skills. In real life, using a weapon makes you better at that weapon, but it also makes you more competent at combat in general. A master longsword user is almost definitely going to be pretty good with other kinds of swords, and even at other weapons like maces.
With a system like this you can have a very complex system of skills while also not locking you into a single type of gameplay from the beginning.
[QUOTE=Jund;52412216]
if having to waste 20 hours making new characters until you find one you like enough to play though the game with is part of the experience, then maybe the experience is dumb
[/QUOTE]
this is my problem - it's dumb [I]for you.[/I] some people really like a more complex, unforgiving experience that streamlining certain elements fundamentally sacrifices. like yeah, you [I]could[/I] pre-plan your skyrim character, but why would you? the game doesn't support or promote that play. same with fallout 4, there's a difference between streamlining an experience and fundamentally removing an aspect that made that game so enjoyable to some. fallout 4 eventually makes all character the [I]exact[/I] same, no matter what you do. this is coming from a series where mismanaging your character basically made the game impossible. again, this is stuff that people [I]really[/I] like.
now i'm generally with you in that i'm appreciating the streamlining that RPGs are doing because pre-planning characters was never a huge thing for me. but as someone who enjoys less conventional experiences in gaming, i know how much it sucks when an experience gets streamlined and your complaints are met with "lmao who cares that was boring/dumb/tedious anyway" while fundamentally missing what made the experience enjoyable. there's a huge push for streamlining in gaming which is great b/c then more people get to enjoy your favorite video game but it often comes at a price of your favorite features never getting developed on again, ie punishing character builds.
[QUOTE=General;52411268]Has anyone went back to oblivion?
I haven't played it since it came out[/QUOTE]
played it last year, i think it's still a good game especially if you do the thieves guild/dark brotherhood quests.
I honestly prefer the sparse but unique NPCs over NPCs that don't say anything because otherwise they feel like sign posts rather than characters.
[editline]29th June 2017[/editline]
I think they could have at least made generic NPCs in Skyrim reuse the 'Rumor' system in Oblivion to make them more believable. A lot of NPCs in Skyrim acknowledge your presence or even say "need something?" but you can't talk to them so...
[QUOTE=ashxu;52412286]
I honestly prefer the sparse but unique NPCs over NPCs that don't say anything because otherwise they feel like sign posts rather than characters.[/QUOTE]
i think it's important to have a balance of both though. filling your world with purely interesting and developed NPC characters is a good way to encounter population problems and to give the impression that the entire world exists to serve the player. i like the impression that this generic NPC titled "merchant" is just too busy to get involved with my shit, to the point where i don't even have an option to interact with him.
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;52412292]i think it's important to have a balance of both though. filling your world with purely interesting and developed NPC characters is a good way to meet population problems and to give the impression that the entire world exists to serve the player. i like the impression that this generic NPC titled "merchant" is just too busy to get involved with my shit, to the point where i don't even have an option to interact with him.[/QUOTE]
Well you're right (and I edited my post) there should be some midway point. But I think the Skyrim NPCs are a deal breaker personally because you could have a conversation with people in Oblivion but in Skyrim a lot of characters don't have anything to say, especially guards who are in every city but you can't even ask them for directions or what's currently happening in the city.
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