Spanish Police Make Raids to Halt Catalan Independence Vote - Polidicks

[QUOTE]A Spanish judge ordered police to search a printer’s shop and two offices of a regional newspaper in Catalonia as part of an investigation into alleged preparations for an illegal referendum on independence for the prosperous northeastern region. A Barcelona-based court said Saturday that the police searches took place Friday in the towns of Valls and Constanti in southern Catalonia. The court said the searches formed part of an investigation into possible disobedience, prevarication and the embezzlement of public funds by Catalan officials. The regional Catalan newspaper El Vallenc reported that “4 agents of the Civil Guard entered our newspaper.” El Vallenc said “the search took place hours after they had searched the Indugraf business.” Indugraf is a printer in Constanti. Catalonia’s president Carles Puigdemont, the regional politician leading the push for independence, said on Twitter that police weren’t “looking for ballots, they were looking for a fight.”[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/spanish-police-make-raids-to-halt-catalan-independence-vote/2017/09/09/2d56d28c-958f-11e7-8482-8dc9a7af29f9_story.html?utm_term=.b4b7fe48bf46[/url] Disgusting no matter what side you support.

[video=youtube;QqreRufrkxM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqreRufrkxM[/video] Relevant. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Reaction video" - Novangel))[/highlight]

The goverment getting super butthurt at the notion of Catalonia being independent and doing everything possible to stop it just makes me want the referendum to be successful, seeing every conservative and fascist politician foam at their mouth and have a heart attack when that happens is going to be a spectacle

It's that time of the year again.

Funny, I thought Spain wasn't a fascist dictatorship anymore.

im still not sure about the referendum. Is it something like brexit but more liberal?

[QUOTE=Jorori;52666687]The goverment getting super butthurt at the notion of Catalonia being independent and doing everything possible to stop it just makes me want the referendum to be successful, seeing every conservative and fascist politician foam at their mouth and have a heart attack when that happens is going to be a spectacle[/QUOTE] The thing is that the referendum is Illegal, it says so very clearly in the Constitution. If anything the Spanish government is being very soft on the cup and are giving them chances to back out of that plan instead of just outright arresting them the moment they announced they were going to do an Illegal referendum. I guess you also didn't learn the lesson from the UK of what happens when politicians who want to further their political career and don't care about the population itself try to do this kind of shit and use misinformation to get their personal agenda done. Because I don't know about you, but everytime I look at Mas and Puigdemont, I'm seeing Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. Also, I don't know we're you got the idea that only right wing and fascists want to stop Cataluña, everyone from any political orientation that has half a brain knows the devastating consequences that Independence would mean to Cataluña, because the EU has already said that Cataluña is not going to be in it if they separate. And if the only party you see as left wing is Podemos because they are the ones siding with the cup, you should know that they are the same as them in the sense that they don't care about Cataluña or it's people, but only wanted to appeal to the other Independence party so that they would make a coalition and not get fucked in the elections.

[QUOTE=SassPD22;52670573]im still not sure about the referendum. Is it something like brexit but more liberal?[/QUOTE] From my understanding (as an outsider), it's more a cultural thing. Catalonia is a pretty distinct region, with it's own language ([URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language"]Catalan[/URL]), a history of independence even while part of a larger monarchy, and a somewhat detached economy. A better comparison might be to the Scottish independence movement.

[QUOTE=gman003-main;52670671]From my understanding (as an outsider), it's more a cultural thing. Catalonia is a pretty distinct region, with it's own language ([URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language"]Catalan[/URL]), a history of independence even while part of a larger monarchy, and a somewhat detached economy. A better comparison might be to the Scottish independence movement.[/QUOTE] Valencia and País Vasco have also their own culture and language and you don't see them trying to pull and illegal referendum (granted, we did use to have the ETA problem, but not anymore). Andalucia was also part of Al-Andalus for 300 more years than the rest of Spain and you don't see them trying to pull and illegal referendum. Valencia was also part of the crown of Aragon like Cataluña and you don't see them trying to pull an Illegal referendum.

I'm no expert on this situation and I do think Catalonia should be given a free and fair referendum on their future modelled on what was done in Scotland, buuut AFAIK this referendum isn't lawful and this action is pretty legally justified Constitutionally, Catalonia is in a similar position to a state in the US - there is no way for them to secede unilaterally according to the constitution. I'd draw a contrast with the US state of Alaska, which moved to hold an independence referendum in 2010 and was [url=https://ballotpedia.org/Alaska_secession_initiative_blocked_by_Alaska_High_Court]blocked from doing so by the state's Supreme Court[/url], on the grounds that "Because secession is clearly unconstitutional... [it] is an improper subject for the initiative process". Catalonia has similarly been [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41196677]ordered by Spain's Constitutional Court to suspend the referendum[/url] while they hear arguments on its constitutionality. But what's happening now in Catalonia is like if Alaska had responded to the ruling by flipping off the court and holding the referendum anyway - it's conceivable that this timeline might have ended with the FBI raiding offices and seizing property. This is turning into a constitutional crisis as the government of Catalonia [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/contested-future-for-catalonias-suspended-independence-vote/2017/09/08/f6933d72-9475-11e7-8482-8dc9a7af29f9_story.html]is moving ahead with the referendum[/url] in defiance of the court's ruling and has signaled its intention to unilaterally declare independence on October 3 if 'Yes' wins. But imo the Spanish government should have avoided this situation by allowing a legit referendum and drawing up something like the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_(2012)]Edinburgh Agreement[/url] with them.

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670698]Valencia and País Vasco have also their own culture and language and you don't see them trying to pull and illegal referendum (granted, we did use to have the ETA problem, but not anymore). Andalucia was also part of Al-Andalus for 300 more years than the rest of Spain and you don't see them trying to pull and illegal referendum. Valencia was also part of the crown of Aragon like Cataluña and you don't see them trying to pull an Illegal referendum.[/QUOTE] Illegal is not unethical. If the people, by fair and honest election, decide that they wish to separate and form a new country, that is entirely within their rights. Specifically, it is the right to self-determination, a fundamental principle of the United Nations, protected by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, part of the International Bill of Rights alongside the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Which, I should point out, Spain is signatory to, and so any Spanish law outlawing any referendum on independence is itself an illegal law.

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52670722]I'm no expert on this situation and I do think Catalonia should be given a free and fair referendum on their future modelled on what was done in Scotland, buuut AFAIK this referendum isn't lawful and this action is pretty legally justified Constitutionally, Catalonia is in a similar position to a state in the US - there is no way for them to secede unilaterally according to the constitution. I'd draw a contrast with the US state of Alaska, which moved to hold an independence referendum in 2010 and was [url=https://ballotpedia.org/Alaska_secession_initiative_blocked_by_Alaska_High_Court]blocked from doing so by the state's Supreme Court[/url], on the grounds that "Because secession is clearly unconstitutional... [it] is an improper subject for the initiative process". Catalonia has similarly been [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41196677]ordered by Spain's Constitutional Court to suspend the referendum[/url] while they hear arguments on its constitutionality. But what's happening now in Catalonia is like if Alaska had responded to the ruling by flipping off the court and holding the referendum anyway - it's conceivable that this timeline might have ended with the FBI raiding offices and seizing property. This is turning into a constitutional crisis as the government of Catalonia [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/contested-future-for-catalonias-suspended-independence-vote/2017/09/08/f6933d72-9475-11e7-8482-8dc9a7af29f9_story.html]is moving ahead with the referendum[/url] in defiance of the court's ruling and has signaled its intention to unilaterally declare independence on October 3 if 'Yes' wins. But imo the Spanish government should have avoided this situation by allowing a legit referendum and drawing up something like the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_(2012)]Edinburgh Agreement[/url] with them.[/QUOTE] Completely agree with you, you're the only person in this thread that seems to get the situation and hasnt been misinformed. [editline]11th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=gman003-main;52670736]Illegal is not unethical. If the people, by fair and honest election, decide that they wish to separate and form a new country, that is entirely within their rights. Specifically, it is the right to self-determination, a fundamental principle of the United Nations, protected by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, part of the International Bill of Rights alongside the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Which, I should point out, Spain is signatory to, and so any Spanish law outlawing any referendum on independence is itself an illegal law.[/QUOTE] Read the post above yours, the referendum they are trying to do is Illegal on all accounts.

[QUOTE=kylejburke;52667387]Funny, I thought Spain wasn't a fascist dictatorship anymore.[/QUOTE] They just put a mask on themselves while repeating the mantra of "'The Transition' was an example to the world about how to move from a dictatorship into a democracy". All of their privileges still untouched and their crimes unpunished. [QUOTE=Ctrl;52670663]The thing is that the referendum is Illegal, it says so very clearly in the Constitution.[/QUOTE] Fun fact: The govern ignores what the constitution says and does what they please when no one is looking ( a classic movement is to approve polemical laws during August or in the evening of a football match ), although they will without any doubts to use it against everyone as weapon. OFC everybody knows that the separation is not a good idea, but every time our president opens their mouth, they get more supporters. In fact with this kind of acts what they are going to accomplish is to prove that they really should be independent from us. And without Catalonia at the headlines, I wonder what the propaganda will be: keep talking about Cuba and Venezuela? Maybe bringing back the idea that ETA still active? Focus more on Gibraltar?

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670738]Read the post above yours, the referendum they are trying to do is Illegal on all accounts.[/QUOTE] You are arguing whether it is lawful. I am arguing whether it is [I]right[/I]. Do you make any claim that this referendum, if carried out, would not represent the will of the people of Catalonia? Are they excluding any people from voting? Is the vote rigged or otherwise unfair? Is there anything, anything at all, to suggest that the result of this referendum would not be an accurate measure of the will of the people? If you can't even make a claim of that nature, then any laws that declare this illegal are unjust and must be struck down or ignored. The right to self-determination is a vital and fundamental human right, and no piece of paper can rightly take that away.

[QUOTE=gman003-main;52670758]You are arguing whether it is lawful. I am arguing whether it is [I]right[/I]. Do you make any claim that this referendum, if carried out, would not represent the will of the people of Catalonia? Are they excluding any people from voting? Is the vote rigged or otherwise unfair? Is there anything, anything at all, to suggest that the result of this referendum would not be an accurate measure of the will of the people? If you can't even make a claim of that nature, then any laws that declare this illegal are unjust and must be struck down or ignored. The right to self-determination is a vital and fundamental human right, and no piece of paper can rightly take that away.[/QUOTE] Well, I can meake a claim of that nature actually, because I believe that it would not be an accurate measure of the people since like I mentiones before Mas and Puigdemont are building their support base by using lies and misinformation same shit that happened to the UK and with the same ammount of people who will regret their decision once they know what horrible consequences the separtion means for them. [QUOTE=kylejburke;52667387]Funny, I thought Spain wasn't a fascist dictatorship anymore.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;52670756]They just put a mask on themselves while repeating the mantra of "'The Transition' was an example to the world about how to move from a dictatorship into a democracy". All of their privileges still untouched and their crimes unpunished. [/QUOTE] Stop spouting lies and talking about things you two clearly know nothing about. I for once I'm glad we are living in the Spain of today and not the nightmare that was Francisco Franco's Spain. With your two comments you undermined and insulted everyone who fought to give us all the privileges we are able to enjoy today.

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670787]Well, I can meake a claim of that nature actually, because I believe that it would not be an accurate measure of the people since like I mentiones before Mas and Puigdemont are building their support base by using lies and misinformation same shit that happened to the UK and with the same ammount of people who will regret their decision once they know what horrible consequences the separtion means for them.[/QUOTE] "People are dumb and will make a decision I do not agree with" is not a valid reason for abrogating a fundamental human right. I do not claim to know whether Catalonian independence would be the right decision. But it should be their decision.

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670787]With your two comments you undermined and insulted everyone who fought to give us all the privileges we are able to enjoy today.[/QUOTE] What privileges? The ones that we lost and forced people like me go outside to survive? Oh well, enjoy your temporal-week job without quoting for the Social Healthcare, underpaid, with less workers rights every day, and overtimes. If you prefer to live in that illusion, go forward, but don't get surprised when it will bite back the second it affects you. [I]( I'm sure quoting is not the work I seek in this context )[/I]

[QUOTE=gman003-main;52670808]"People are dumb and will make a decision I do not agree with" is not a valid reason for abrogating a fundamental human right. I do not claim to know whether Catalonian independence would be the right decision. But it should be their decision.[/QUOTE] It's not their decision though, it's the desition of the politicians who are lying to them. Of coure people should have the right to vote, but when that vote is meaningless because the people voting for it were manipulated, you have to wonder if it was their choice ot not. Most of the people don't even know what voting for independence will mean for Cataluña. [editline]11th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;52670809]What privileges? The ones that we lost and forced people like me go outside to survive? Oh well, enjoy your temporal-week job without quoting for the Social Healthcare, underpaid, with less workers rights every day, and overtimes. If you prefer to live in that illusion, go forward, but don't get surprised when it will bite back the second it affects you. [I]( I'm sure quoting is not the work I seek in this context )[/I][/QUOTE] You still have no idea what you are talking about, please, tell me what privileges we had under Franco and that we lost, because it seems to me that under a dictatorship you don't have many privileges. Also, you are using yourself as an example, and sure, a lot of people have to go outside to search for a job, I won't deny it, but it's wrong for you to assume everyone is the same as you and to assume what I do for a living. Also, guess you are so stuck up your own ideas of Spain that you don't notice our great benefits like our healthcare and education, our great police force, our more than progressive courts...

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670811]It's not their decision though, it's the desition of the politicians who are lying to them. Of coure people should have the right to vote, but when that vote is meaningless because the people voting for it were manipulated, you have to wonder if it was their choice ot not. Most of the people don't even know what voting for independence will mean for Cataluña.[/QUOTE] so who's deciding what's best for the people of catalonia if not the people of catalonia themselves?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52670968]so who's deciding what's best for the people of catalonia if not the people of catalonia themselves?[/QUOTE] It's not their decision though, it's the decision of the politicians who brainwash them. Whoever, even when I know this is the case, I'm only arguing against the referendum if it's done illegaly like right now, if they would fight for a legal one, let them vote themselves into a mistake, I wouldn't mind.

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670980]It's not their decision though, it's the decision of the politicians who brainwash them.[/QUOTE] right but a referendum is a public vote by the people. i think it is rather arrogant to assume that people should not be allowed to vote on the assumption that they have been "brainwashed"

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52670985]right but a referendum is a public vote by the people. i think it is rather arrogant to assume that people should not be allowed to vote on the assumption that they have been "brainwashed"[/QUOTE] Like I said, even if I have this "assumption", let them do a referendum as long as it is done legally.

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670997]Like I said, even if I have this "assumption", let them do a referendum as long as it is done legally.[/QUOTE] but its currently unconsitutional and i imagine you would have to do quite a bit of hoop jumping there. somehow i think that even if the whole of catalonia wanted to leave, madrid would still be deeply unwilling to let them go

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52671044]but its currently unconsitutional and i imagine you would have to do quite a bit of hoop jumping there. somehow i think that even if the whole of catalonia wanted to leave, madrid would still be deeply unwilling to let them go[/QUOTE] But what is the point of having a constitution and law if you are not going to follow it? I'm sure that with enough time and doing things the proper way a legal referendum agreement could be reached, but these kind of politicians that the cup had don't care about cataluña or doing thing properly, they only care about their career.

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52671104]But what is the point of having a constitution and law if you are not going to follow it? I'm sure that with enough time and doing things the proper way a legal referendum agreement could be reached, but these kind of politicians that the cup had don't care about cataluña or doing thing properly, they only care about their career.[/QUOTE] After skimming through a translated copy of the Spanish Constitution, I am not entirely sure it [I]is[/I] illegal. This is backed up by the fact that the case is currently pending before their Constitutional Court - if there were a simple "you can't secede" clause, it would have been settled already, but the main Spanish government is pushing to delay the referendum until after the courts decide. The blame here could go to either side, and I am unfamiliar enough with the situation to determine which. It could be that the Catalan separatists are trying to rush the referendum so that people who are mostly neutral don't bother to vote. Or it could be that the Spanish national government is trying to delay the referendum indefinitely, or at least until they can pack the courts enough to declare it illegal, or if all else fails, make it unclear if the results will be valid so people don't vote. Based on the national government's use of police force to disrupt the referendum, I am inclined to believe they are trying to stall the process, but that is a weak assessment that could change in light of strong evidence.

[QUOTE=Ctrl;52670811]You still have no idea what you are talking about, please, tell me what privileges we had under Franco and that we lost, because it seems to me that under a dictatorship you don't have many privileges. Also, you are using yourself as an example, and sure, a lot of people have to go outside to search for a job, I won't deny it, but it's wrong for you to assume everyone is the same as you and to assume what I do for a living. Also, guess you are so stuck up your own ideas of Spain that you don't notice our great benefits like our healthcare and education, our great police force, our more than progressive courts...[/QUOTE] Actually you are the one who doesn't even realize the time from what I'm talking about: our present age. Even if they never left the power, we used to have a decent life during the 2000s just until the crisis. Sure, we still having stuff that is better than other countries out there ( especially the healthcare which even in this current state is far better than some european ones ), but is impossible to negate there are constant drastic downgrades to the quality of the public service, how the police are resembling every day more and more like the ones under the dictatorship ( the "Ley mordaza" rings any bell to you? ), the courts repeatedly not fighting or even ignoring the blatant cases of mass corruption and right abuses, bills from private companies rising up ( particularly the electrical, water and internet ones since old politicians are part of their CEOs )... The detractors for the independence have a point: most of the reasons behind this movement are to make ignore the population the corrupt cases that they have by exploiting the poor relationship there are between the Catalonian administration and the central one ( which it started to go down again since the far-right retook the power ). However, the right of the people to decide their own home exists ( prime example: Andalusia, which originally asked for independence but later become their own regional state, which others would follow ).

[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52670722]I'm no expert on this situation and I do think Catalonia should be given a free and fair referendum on their future modelled on what was done in Scotland, buuut AFAIK this referendum isn't lawful and this action is pretty legally justified [/QUOTE] This line of reasoning is a bit one sided. They are laws made by a unitary government that is comprised by a minority of catalonian inhabitants; who are the ones specifically pertaining to the referendum in question. It's a unitary government making and enforcing laws, possibly (depending on popular opinion) without express consent from any Catalan majority, either past or present. I don't think a couple of nobles houses getting married 300 years ago is a very good way of making decisions regarding territorial boundaries or political agency of particular regions. I'd say it's theoretically better than catalonia remain part of spain, but really if the entire rational behind it is one that catalonia/catalans is/are subjects of Spain and have no right to self-determination, then that rational needs to be immediately rejected. We don't live in the age of kingdoms anymore. People should stick together because it's the right thing to do, not because they are being forced or subverted.

The only reason Catalonia is part of Spain is through brute force and repression: during the dictatorship specially there were active tries to erradicate the Catalan language among other local customs all in favour of what the fascists and/or the church wanted: remove their identity and assimilate them into the bulk of Spain. It has been a country "united" with duct tape and punching pieces together basically and again and again it's shown the mainland wants to have things a certain way while Catalonia or the Basque Country do otherwise, so this referendum is not a surprise. The fact the government is so opposed to it is very telling of their actual ideals.

If Catalonia wants to be independent then I'm behind them 100%, but my worry is that should a Yes vote succeed, it could be due to the fact that No voters sided with the government's view that it is an illegal vote and not participate. If only, say, 10% of people vote, and it's a split decision with Yes just winning out, I'd say that would be insufficient quorum for independence. For legitimacy's sake, the turnout needs to be high enough and the Yes vote needs to be strong enough that one can reasonably extrapolate that had the government allowed the election in the first place, then the result would still have been in favor of independence.