[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/28/world/middleeast/details-emerge-of-israeli-offer-to-palestinians-on-two-state-solution.html?_r=1"]NYTIMES[/URL]
[release]JERUSALEM — Israeli negotiators told their Palestinian counterparts this week that their guiding principle for drawing the borders of a future two-state solution would be for existing settlement blocks to become part of Israel, an approach that the Palestinians rejected as unacceptable.
The discussion, which occurred in Jordan on Wednesday night, was the first time the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu formally told the Palestinian Authority how it would seek to handle the territorial part of their negotiations, although Mr. Netanyahu had made the point publicly to Congress in Washington in May.
A Palestinian official said the offer “effectively abandons international law and the framework we have been focused on for the past 20 years.” Speaking on the condition of anonymity on the subject of the talks, as did Israeli officials, the Palestinian said, “If you put it in perspective, it is as if the West Bank were not occupied, just disputed, with both sides having legitimate claims, while the rest of Israel remains outside the dispute.”
An Israeli official defended the offer.
“The principle we laid out on Wednesday is that the majority of Palestinians should be on the Palestinian side and the majority of Jews on our side,” that official said. “These are preliminary discussions. The Palestinians have asked for clarification. We have asked for clarifications from them on some things as well. And we hope that in the coming weeks these talks will continue.”
The Palestinians said they saw little reason to keep the talks — started under Jordanian sponsorship this month — going.
“Israel’s response does not lead us to real negotiations,” said Nabil Abu Rudeineh, a spokesman for President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority.
The Palestinian official who spoke anonymously added that the Israeli negotiator, Yitzhak Molho, did not provide any written documents or maps in his discussion with the Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erekat, and did not include Jerusalem or the Jordan Valley in what he discussed.
“Our starting point is the 1967 borders with minor swaps and theirs is the wall and settlements,” he said, referring to the separation barrier Israel has been building for the past decade along and inside the West Bank. “In some ways, this is their way of reframing the occupation.”
Jordan has played host to five meetings for Israeli and Palestinian negotiators in an effort to get them back to full-blown peace talks after a break of more than a year.
The Palestinian view is that the terms of the talks — laid out last fall by the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and the United States — required both sides to present their approach to borders and security by this week. The Israelis say the clock began ticking only when the two sides actually sat down this month and the deadline is therefore in April.
The international players — known as the quartet — have been pressing Israel to find ways to keep the talks going, including through possible prisoner releases and some transfer of authority over West Bank land. Catherine Ashton, the European Union’s foreign policy chief, was in the region this week and said after meetings with Israeli and Palestinian leaders that she believed the talks could continue.
“President Abbas is thinking carefully about how to move forward,” she said.
Mr. Abbas is pursuing three tracks to Palestinian statehood simultaneously. None is going well. Besides the Jordanian-sponsored talks, he is trying to create unity with Hamas, which rules in Gaza, and is also seeking statehood recognition at the United Nations.
Israel has settled hundreds of thousands of its Jewish citizens in East Jerusalem and the West Bank since the 1967 Middle East war when it won those areas from Jordan. In addition to seeking to keep some of that territory for ideological and strategic reasons, the Israeli government wants to uproot as few of the settlers as possible. The Palestinians say those settlers are living on land that rightly belongs to them and their future state. [/release]No.
Yeah they basically stole an area and now want to officially keep it like it's in all fairness theirs.
Really nice.
You just really want to get more rockets into face, don't you?
Gee, who could have seen this coming.
Has Israel actually ever had a period of real peace since it was founded?
[QUOTE=Benjimon007;34444201]Has Israel actually ever had a period of real peace since it was founded?[/QUOTE]
About five minutes.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;34444304]About five minutes.[/QUOTE]
That's the time it took to for the jets to takeoff.
Israel being a despicable, retarded country again? Who would have guessed.
why cant we all just get along
[QUOTE=Bobie;34445702]why cant we all just get along[/QUOTE]
It all boils down to greed.
Either greed for power, land, money and other valuables [B]OR[/B] natural resources.
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445766]The only thing that justifies that is Israel's foreign policy towards Palestinians.
You do realize Israel is one of the most democratic and liberal nations in the middle east, not to mention one of the if not the most culturally diverse country in the region as well?[/QUOTE]
Funny how Israel receives more UN condemnations than Iran.
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445801]I find it hilarious how folks tend to flip a shit whenever someone says "Fuck america", but saying "Fuck israel" is perfectly acceptable even though Israel has the same fucked up foreign policy as the US, if not even less atrocious.[/QUOTE]
Because Israel is one of the last apartheid states.
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445766]The only thing that justifies that is Israel's foreign policy towards Palestinians.
[B]You do realize Israel is one of the most democratic and liberal nations in the middle east, not to mention one of the if not the most culturally diverse country in the region as well?[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh fuck, my sides.
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445801]I find it hilarious how folks tend to flip a shit whenever someone says "Fuck america", but saying "Fuck israel" is perfectly acceptable even though Israel has the same fucked up foreign policy as the US, if not even less atrocious.[/QUOTE]
We don't conquer parts of Canada and claim it to be ours
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445801]I find it hilarious how folks tend to flip a shit whenever someone says "Fuck america", but saying "Fuck israel" is perfectly acceptable even though Israel has the same fucked up foreign policy as the US, if not even less atrocious.[/QUOTE]
33 percent of Facepunch users are residents of the United States.
The culture is patriotism and ego centric.
What can you expect?
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445902]Surely this has already been covered.
Israel has Arab political parties, there are Arab members of the Knesset, there are Arab judges in Israel. There was an Arab on the Israeli supreme court not too long ago. These are all points I even remember being covered in some huge Israel-related debate a few months ago.
Israel may be a dick, but it is not an apartheid state.
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
And wasn't there an Arab general in the Israeli army? I even remember reading up on him.[/QUOTE]
Typing BBC Israel into google and clicking of the first links.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16526469[/url]
[QUOTE=Van-man;34445856]Oh fuck, my sides.[/QUOTE]
you do have to look at the nations around it you know, not compare it to say the US or the UK or any world superpower
[QUOTE=Saza;34445948]you do have to look at the nations around it you know, not compare it to say the US or the UK or any world superpower[/QUOTE]
It hardly puts it beyond criticism.
[QUOTE=EliteGuy;34445921]We don't conquer parts of Canada and claim it to be ours[/QUOTE]
That's because the one time we tried doing that, they burnt the White House down :v:
[QUOTE=Falchion;34445927]33 percent of Facepunch users are residents of the United States.
The culture is patriotism and ego centric.
What can you expect?[/QUOTE]
Ahahahahaa.
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
Way to generalize
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445981]You cant discriminate against any minority because the country basically consists of minorities. Besides of course, Palestinians.[/QUOTE]
"In 2007, it was expanded to apply to citizens of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon."
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Retardation;34446028]I haven't said that the way our government treats Palestinians is in any way okay or justified.
But you cant go as far as to say that it's an apartheid state. I saw some guy even claim that we're just as bad as Nazi Germany and got dozens of agrees.[/QUOTE]
Well there was more to nazi germany than exterminating minorities.
[QUOTE=Retardation;34446028]I haven't said that the way our government treats Palestinians is in any way okay or justified.
But you cant go as far as to say that it's an apartheid state. I saw some guy even claim that we're just as bad as Nazi Germany and got dozens of agrees.[/QUOTE]
Israel has apartheid policies in the occupied territories. We're not referring to Israel proper (though there's still elements, e.g. the citizenship marriage bar)
[QUOTE=Retardation;34445801]I find it hilarious how folks tend to flip a shit whenever someone says "Fuck america", but saying "Fuck israel" is perfectly acceptable even though Israel has the same fucked up foreign policy as the US, if not even less atrocious.[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong, I think America is a disgrace of a nation as well. They're both pieces of shit that need reform in certain areas or as a whole.
[QUOTE=Retardation;34446182]This I can absolutely agree with.
But seriously, I see some posts here regarding Israel and it makes me cringe. Some folks treat it as some fascist state run by a dictator and the regime actively shoots down anyone who isn't Jewish. It's ridiculous and I wish I could say that there's only a few posts of that nature, but those kind of posts are usually accompanied by showers of agree ratings and it worries me.[/QUOTE]
So then, what do you think of the settlements?
[QUOTE=Retardation;34447610]But surely it is our right to since we annexed the territories through wars that were not even declared by us? I could be entirely wrong though so feel free to correct me.[/QUOTE]
Israel launched a surprise attack on the Arab forces starting the six day war. Even if that was not the case, you don't get free land by "winning" a war.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;34447689]nuke israel
-newt gingrich[/QUOTE]
[release][h2]HAH[/h2][/release]
Too much money to be made.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34447683]Israel launched a surprise attack on the Arab forces starting the six day war. Even if that was not the case, you don't get free land by "winning" a war.[/QUOTE]
That war is pretty much considered a preemptive strike against an inevitable Arab invasion.
Egypt and other nations around Israel started building up forces along the border. Israel got smart and struck first. Can hardly call it a "surprise attack", really.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34447854]That war is pretty much considered a preemptive strike against an inevitable Arab invasion.
Egypt and other nations around Israel started building up forces along the border. Israel got smart and struck first. Can hardly call it a "surprise attack", really.[/QUote]
Yeah and Israel also said they were attacked first (by Egypt). When it was then established Israel actually attacked first, that's when they played into to the "pre-emptive" narrative bullshit.
Egypt increased forces count at the border amid a USSR report that Israel was going to launch an attack (and guess what happened)
[QUOTE=Starpluck;34448028]Yeah and Israel also said they were attacked first (by Egypt). When it was then established Israel actually attacked first, that's when they played into to the "pre-emptive" narrative bullshit.
Egypt increased forces count at the border amid a USSR report that Israel was going to launch an attack (and guess what happened)[/QUOTE]
I've never heard of that before, source? (not saying you're lying, I'm just curious about this report)
It still doesn't change the fact that displacing the population of an occupied territory is illegal and simply plain wrong.
More and more it seems like Israeli citizens are quite happy to let their government commit atrocities in their name. Well, maybe not happy, but completely apathetic.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34448054]I've never heard of that before, source? (not saying you're lying, I'm just curious about this report)[/QUOTE]
which part
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