MH370 aftermath: Inmarsat offers to install a free tracking system in all the world's airliners for - Polidicks

[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-27369288[/url] [quote]UK satellite operator Inmarsat is to offer a free, basic tracking service to all the world's passenger airliners. The offer follows the case of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, which disappeared without trace on 8 March. It was very brief electronic "pings" from Inmarsat equipment on the lost plane that prompted investigators to look for wreckage in the Indian Ocean. Inmarsat says the free service it is offering would carry definitive positional information. It would see a plane determine its location using GPS and then transmit that data - together with a heading, speed and altitude - over Inmarsat's global network of satellites every 15 minutes. "Our equipment is on 90% of the world's wide-body jets already. This is an immediate fix for the industry at no cost to the industry," Inmarsat senior vice-president Chris McLaughlin told BBC News. Cost is one of the reasons often cited for the reluctance of airlines to routinely use satellite tracking. The London-based company announced its offer ahead of a conference on aircraft tracking being hosted by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) in Montreal, Canada, on Monday. Both ICAO and the International Air Transport Association (IATA), the trade association for the world's airlines, are currently considering how best to respond to the loss of MH370.[/quote]

[quote]in all the world's airliners for free[/quote] u wot m8 Seriously though. They're a lot of airliners in the world with a lot of jets.

[QUOTE=Aide;44788036]u wot m8 Seriously though. They're a lot of airliners in the world with a lot of jets.[/QUOTE] the system is already on the jets if they have modern engines likely, so this is just adding a GPS chip and some software, even the malasyan jet had some form of this on the engines but it didn't say where the plane was

I fail to understand why the planes weren't equipped with a GPS in the first place. Especially if this fix is so "easy" to implement. A plane seems like the kind of thing you WANT to keep track of.

I need some help here. I was under the impression that an airplane has a constant connection to at least half a dozen satellites at any given moment in time, plus the nav systems on deck, plus the black-box backups. What went wrong? How come I can turn my phone's GPS on and find it more easily then a fucking airliner? And an even better question - if I'm wrong, WHY hadn't they done all this? It turns out my car is easier to track than a jet plane.

[QUOTE=Stopper;44788062] It turns out my car is easier to track than a jet plane.[/QUOTE] I really doubt your car has two way communication with satellites, unlike what is being offered for installation on planes.

[QUOTE=Stopper;44788062]I need some help here. I was under the impression that an airplane has a constant connection to at least half a dozen satellites at any given moment in time, plus the nav systems on deck, plus the black-box backups. What went wrong? How come I can turn my phone's GPS on and find it more easily then a fucking airliner? And an even better question - if I'm wrong, WHY hadn't they done all this? It turns out my car is easier to track than a jet plane.[/QUOTE] A satellite connection does not equal a GPS fix. The Rolls Royce engines on the aircraft had a satellite connection to enable live monitoring of the engine diagnostics but that doesn't give a GPS fix

[QUOTE=DogGunn;44788084]I really doubt your car has two way communication with satellites, unlike what is being offered for installation on planes.[/QUOTE] Fact of the matter is - I can go out and get an app for my smartphone that links up to my car's GPS and gives me a real-time feed of where it is, within 20m. I can get one for my PC as well and keep all-round statistics 24/7. Why can [I]I[/I] do it, but multi-billion corporations can't? [editline]12th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=download;44788093]A satellite connection does not equal a GPS fix. The Rolls Royce engines on the aircraft had a satellite connection to enable live monitoring of the engine diagnostics but that doesn't give a GPS fix[/QUOTE] So, you're telling me that airliners don't have a single GPS on board. A technology that's been around for almost 20 years and is in every car, phone and toaster.

[QUOTE=Stopper;44788108]Fact of the matter is - I can go out and get an app for my smartphone that links up to my car's GPS and gives me a real-time feed of where it is, within 20m. I can get one for my PC as well and keep all-round statistics 24/7. Why can [I]I[/I] do it, but multi-billion corporations can't? [/QUOTE] You realise the difficulty is infrastructure and not applications right? Your mobile phone communicates with a network supported by millions of users. A satellite on a plane communicates with something that costs millions of dollars to launch and has limited customers.

[QUOTE=Stopper;44788108]Fact of the matter is - I can go out and get an app for my smartphone that links up to my car's GPS and gives me a real-time feed of where it is, within 20m. I can get one for my PC as well and keep all-round statistics 24/7. Why can [I]I[/I] do it, but multi-billion corporations can't? [editline]12th May 2014[/editline] So, you're telling me that airliners don't have a single GPS on board. A technology that's been around for almost 20 years and is in every car, phone and toaster.[/QUOTE] They don't have a GPS linked to a satellite receiver/transmitter.

I have a much better idea. Instead of having all this electronic equipment that can malfunction, we should tie a ball of brightly colored string to every aircraft. Then, if an aircraft crashes, all you have to do is follow the string. If the plane lands succesfully, you call up the other airport, they cut the string there, and then you just roll up the string into a ball again. "[i]Oh but V12US![/i]", I hear you ask, "[i]What if the string breaks?![/i]". Which is a good point, but one I also already have another solution for. Instead of one string, you tie [b]two[/b] strings to every plane. If one breaks, you have the second as a backup. It's virtually failproof.

[QUOTE=V12US;44788225]I have a much better idea. Instead of having all this electronic equipment that can malfunction, we should tie a ball of brightly colored string to every aircraft. Then, if an aircraft crashes, all you have to do is follow the string. If the plane lands succesfully, you call up the other airport, they cut the string there, and then you just roll up the string into a ball again. "[i]Oh but V12US![/i]", I hear you ask, "[i]What if the string breaks?![/i]". Which is a good point, but one I also already have another solution for. Instead of one string, you tie [b]two[/b] strings to every plane. If one breaks, you have the second as a backup. It's virtually failproof.[/QUOTE] what if a cat gets involved?

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;44788275]what if a cat gets involved?[/QUOTE] When cats evolve wings we won't need planes anymore.

[QUOTE=Stopper;44788062]It turns out my car is easier to track than a jet plane.[/QUOTE]It's easy on land where you have cellular coverage but it turns out it's a really different thing at 10km and over the middle of a large ocean. The satellites has to not just transmit, like GPS systems, but also receive what the receiving points send. (This is the data the planes would send) Basically boils down to: cellular coverage on land with mobile communications, over oceans you need two-way satellite communications.

[QUOTE=Stopper;44788062]I need some help here. I was under the impression that an airplane has a constant connection to at least half a dozen satellites at any given moment in time, plus the nav systems on deck, plus the black-box backups. What went wrong? How come I can turn my phone's GPS on and find it more easily then a fucking airliner? And an even better question - if I'm wrong, WHY hadn't they done all this? It turns out my car is easier to track than a jet plane.[/QUOTE] Your GPS unit is a simple piece of electronics that receives signals from GPS satellites in orbit and uses those signals to triangulate its location. It has no connection to the satellites. A GPS unit on a plane would be able to find its own location just as easily, but they don't send that location to a satellite. It's the difference between you being able to receive a radio station on your radio, and your radio sending messages to the radio station. If you were stranded with just your radio, you could still receive signals on it, but your handheld radio doesn't have the ability to send messages back to the station. You could get a device that would let you transmit- but that's a lot bulkier, more complicated, and since it's a different device entirely would cost money to replace.

[QUOTE=V12US;44788279]When cats evolve wings we won't need planes anymore.[/QUOTE] The cats do evolve faster than you imagine... [video=youtube;-HnwhGgsgXc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HnwhGgsgXc[/video]

[QUOTE=V12US;44788279]When cats evolve wings we won't need planes anymore.[/QUOTE] All forms of transport will soon be replaced with cats [img]http://imgkk.com/i/r87n.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=catbarf;44789661]Your GPS unit is a simple piece of electronics that receives signals from GPS satellites in orbit and uses those signals to triangulate its location. It has no connection to the satellites. A GPS unit on a plane would be able to find its own location just as easily, but they don't send that location to a satellite. It's the difference between you being able to receive a radio station on your radio, and your radio sending messages to the radio station. If you were stranded with just your radio, you could still receive signals on it, but your handheld radio doesn't have the ability to send messages back to the station. You could get a device that would let you transmit- but that's a lot bulkier, more complicated, and since it's a different device entirely would cost money to replace.[/QUOTE] Thanks for clearing that up, but it raises another question - what about satellite phones? They can function pretty much everywhere and can send and receive data. Basically, my question is - why isn't a plane in communication with a system on the ground at all times (or like these guys are doing it, sending pings every X minutes)?

[QUOTE=Stopper;44788108] So, you're telling me that airliners don't have a single GPS on board. A technology that's been around for almost 20 years and is in every car, phone and toaster.[/QUOTE] they have a GPS reciever, not a GPS transmitter, thats the issue here. these guys are willing to equip all planes with the transmitter [editline]12th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Stopper;44791444]Thanks for clearing that up, but it raises another question - what about satellite phones? They can function pretty much everywhere and can send and receive data. Basically, my question is - why isn't a plane in communication with a system on the ground at all times (or like these guys are doing it, sending pings every X minutes)?[/QUOTE] well for sat phones, they are not as useful as TV would like to make them, their coverage is not global, they are limited to certain latitudes and they often will require a large antena to be deployed to get a signal, they've come a long way though. as for communications, they were flying in one of the most congested pieces of airspace in the world, as well they have to hand the plane through 3-4 different country's airspace which is managed locally. there will be many changes when it comes to the coordination between country's controllers, maybe even consolidation into larger regional control areas, idk not my field of expertise. still radio is the most effective means of communications between planes and the ground, what is probably going to happen is the region will start adapting the GPS based ground control to replace the radar based one that they are using today. most of europe uses this now i believe and its been adopted here in the U.S. slowly too, so this will just basically force it into the area

[QUOTE=Sableye;44788049]the system is already on the jets if they have modern engines likely, so this is just adding a GPS chip and some software, even the malasyan jet had some form of this on the engines but it didn't say where the plane was[/QUOTE] The systems already have location data to hand, apparently this is literally just a software update on Inmarsats equipment on board each plane. [editline]12th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Solo Wing;44788060]I fail to understand why the planes weren't equipped with a GPS in the first place. Especially if this fix is so "easy" to implement. A plane seems like the kind of thing you WANT to keep track of.[/QUOTE] Planes know exactly where they are, but (real time) tracking planes has never been seen as important. Especially as its not cheap to do reliably (with satellites). [editline]12th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Stopper;44788108]Fact of the matter is - I can go out and get an app for my smartphone that links up to my car's GPS and gives me a real-time feed of where it is, within 20m. I can get one for my PC as well and keep all-round statistics 24/7. Why can [I]I[/I] do it, but multi-billion corporations can't? [editline]12th May 2014[/editline] So, you're telling me that airliners don't have a single GPS on board. A technology that's been around for almost 20 years and is in every car, phone and toaster.[/QUOTE] The issue isn't the plane knowing where it is (all commercial planes know EXACTLY where they are from a number of sources (INS, GPS, radio etc)), the problem is sharing that data with other people. Like others have said, just because your phone knows where it is doesn't mean anyone has that information. [editline]12th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Stopper;44791444] Basically, my question is - why isn't a plane in communication with a system on the ground at all times (or like these guys are doing it, sending pings every X minutes)?[/QUOTE] Cost and infrastructure requirements. Every time you send data via a satellite (be that a phone call, the internet, position data etc) you are having to allocate space on a satellite and a ground station. Unless you happen to own all this stuff (as Inmarsat happen to do) you have to rent it from someone else and it is not cheap in the slightest.

[QUOTE=dije;44789521]It's easy on land where you have cellular coverage but it turns out it's a really different thing at 10km and over the middle of a large ocean. The satellites has to not just transmit, like GPS systems, but also receive what the receiving points send. (This is the data the planes would send) Basically boils down to: cellular coverage on land with mobile communications, over oceans you need two-way satellite communications.[/QUOTE] To expand on your point: [quote]Standard BGAN terminals cannot be used on moving aircraft due to doppler shift effects. An alternative service using more intelligent terminals to talk to the I4 satellites, named SwiftBroadband, has been developed for aircraft use.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_Global_Area_Network[/url]

I do a lot of research on plane crashes and other various tragedies and it's always very interesting to see how they caused major changes in the way we conduct daily business. A lot of them are seemingly braindead things, like having a de-ice protocol and whatnot. It's interesting to see that even as far along as 2014, we're experiencing something that is just NOW making us think about plunking GPS systems onto every jet on the face of the earth. Mind blowing.