People with Muslim sounding names less likely to be hired and promoted - Polidicks

[t]http://i.imgur.com/nCuWv1p.jpg[/t] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38751307[/url] Also more likely to live in poverty. Whoda thunk it. [quote]A job seeker with an English-sounding name was offered three times the number of interviews than an applicant with a Muslim name, a BBC test found. Inside Out London sent CVs from two candidates, "Adam" and "Mohamed", who had identical skills and experience, in response to 100 job opportunities. Adam was offered 12 interviews, while Mohamed was offered four. Although the results were based on a small sample size, they tally with the findings of previous academic studies. ... These have found British Muslims are less proportionately represented in managerial and professional occupations than any other religious group. ... Muslim men are 76% less likely to be employed than their white Christian counterparts, according to research by the Research Centre for the Study of Ethnicity and Citizenship at the University of Bristol. The last census in 2011 showed Muslims make up just over 1 million of the capital's 8.2 million inhabitants. But more than half of Muslim households are in poverty, higher than any other social group, according to the Muslim Council of Britain.[/quote] [quote]"I had a student job where the employer looked at my name and said 'Oh, that won't do, introduce yourself as Terry Miles' or something like that. I was very unhappy to do so. "I wouldn't willingly change my name, and I've given my daughters Pakistani or Muslim names, even when I thought: 'Might this hurt their chances when they look for work?'"[/quote] [quote]A [URL="http://www.natcen.ac.uk/media/20541/test-for-racial-discrimination.pdf"]field experiment[/URL] for the Department for Work and Pensions in 2009 found ethnic minority applicants were discriminated against in favour of white applicants in 29% of cases.[/quote] [quote]In 2015, a [URL="https://www.demos.co.uk/project/rising-to-the-top/"]report[/URL] by the charity Demos found British Muslims were less proportionately represented in managerial and professional occupations than any other religious group.[/quote] [quote]"I have seen many people who are less skilled than me but have risen up into more senior management positions, much faster and much quicker because their face fits."[/quote] [quote]Barrister Nabila Mallick represents Muslims taking this kind of action against employers. She said: "There's a perception of Muslim employees being considered disloyal, considered to be political, their appearances sometimes are read as them being fundamentalist.[/quote] So muslim names less likely to be accepted for interview despite having identical qualifications. Muslims less likely to get promoted once they get a job. Muslim families more likely to live in poverty... I wonder if there is a link. Lets play bingo. Paraphrase what people say to match these - once you win it I'll pm you with a picture of a cute piglet or a doggo. "There is no discrimination here." "Its ok because of national security." "they don't integrate." "It's because they are lazy." "Small sample!" "It's because they're less qualified" "the guy lied about his name! thats wrong!!" "white genocide" - might not be able to get this once since pantzmaster got himself banned. "op is intolerant of my intolerance, hes the real bigot" "bias source" "they'd do it to us so its ok" This study is for the UK. A similar study was done in the US regarding people with black sounding names finding similar results - identical qualifications with a different name got less interviews and callbacks - Freakonomics discusses this in a fairly neutral manner - good book give it a read if you haven't already. I think not having names on CVs might be a good solution for the interview stage but will discrimination mean people who interview are less likely to get the job? and would this tackle the lack of vertical mobility thing?

Reminds me of how people from Ballymun were much less likely to be hired because of where they came from thanks to the Ballymun Towers.

It's unfortunate but I'm not entirely surprised. You'll also find similar discrepancies between people with short easy to pronounce names and people with long difficult to say names.

Well, I'm fucked. Thanks Dad! But joke's on the UK, I ain't working here as an Engineer. I'ma go back to my Muslim country, where my Muslim name won't get me sidelined for interviews, and where I can work and not have 40% of my salary taxed.

[QUOTE=loopoo;51794175]Well, I'm fucked. Thanks Dad! But joke's on the UK, I ain't working here as an Engineer. I'ma go back to my Muslim country, where my Muslim name won't get me sidelined for interviews, and where I can work and not have 40% of my salary taxed.[/QUOTE] Bye then.

[QUOTE=loopoo;51794175]Well, I'm fucked. Thanks Dad! But joke's on the UK, I ain't working here as an Engineer. I'ma go back to my Muslim country, where my Muslim name won't get me sidelined for interviews, and where I can work and not have 40% of my salary taxed.[/QUOTE] Which country is it?

I can confirm that there's a similar trend in Sweden

[QUOTE=loopoo;51794175]Well, I'm fucked. Thanks Dad! But joke's on the UK, I ain't working here as an Engineer. I'ma go back to my Muslim country, where my Muslim name won't get me sidelined for interviews, and where I can work and not have 40% of my salary taxed.[/QUOTE] Name a Muslim country better than the UK?

[QUOTE=DogGunn;51794244]Name a Muslim country better than the UK?[/QUOTE] Probably none. But a muslim country with better hiring prospects and higher social mobility for muslims... there's probably a few. That said the idea of losing educated people to brain drain caused by racism (cue its not racist...) is real shitty and also a shame that he doesn't see the UK as his country.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;51794244]Name a Muslim country better than the UK?[/QUOTE] Define "better"

-snip-

[QUOTE=elowin;51794288]Define "better"[/QUOTE] Doesn't discriminate against you for being Muslim?

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;51794305]Doesn't discriminate against you for being Muslim?[/QUOTE] Then every muslim country is better than the UK.

[QUOTE=dunkace;51794201]Bye then.[/QUOTE] Ey, I love Britain and what it's done for me. I'll definitely be back in the future after I've got a few years experience under my belt and transfer to an international company. That way I can work in the UK but still get the perks of "technically" working in the Middle East. I think of the UK as my home, not the ME. That being said, UK offers me the chance of student loan and no bursary, whereas my dad's country offers me a fully paid scholarship, bursary and a guaranteed job when I return. I gotta work a couple of years for my sponsors to "pay back" the scholarship, but it's not required. I can opt to work somewhere else and pay back my scholarship fees interest-free. [QUOTE=da space core;51794216]Which country is it?[/QUOTE] Kuwait, fam. [QUOTE=DogGunn;51794244]Name a Muslim country better than the UK?[/QUOTE] Better than the UK in certain aspects, for sure. Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, just to name a few. No tax, company house and car provided, good job prospects as a citizen of that country. Graduating with just a Master's in the UK with an Engineering degree, I'd be on somewhat shit pay despite the 4 years of blood, sweat and tears. With a Bachelor's in the ME, I'd be on much better pay with much better perks. Plus, my home country has this law enacted where every citizen has much higher chances of getting hired than - say - an expatriate. So nabbing a job there would be much easier compared to the UK, where competition would be fierce. That's not to say competition isn't fierce back home, but with the qualifications I'd have at the end of my degree, I'd be one of the better qualified candidates. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51794257]Probably none. But a Muslim country with better hiring prospects and higher social mobility for muslims... there's probably a few. That said the idea of losing educated people to brain drain caused by racism (cue its not racist...) is real shitty and also a shame that he doesn't see the UK as his country.[/QUOTE] You basically nailed it regarding the hiring prospects. That being said, I do see the UK as my country, I was raised here by my mum who's English through and through. But I'd have to be pretty short-sighted to work here straight out of uni. I'd benefit more going back to my dad's country, working for a few years, and then working in the UK with an international company. So I could start off with babysteps over there, where I've got plenty of family in the Engineering industry, and then come work here. If I wasn't Arabic, I'd never even think about going to the ME to work. But since I've got family who I love and cousins I enjoy spending time with, it'd make my years back there not too awful.

[QUOTE=loopoo;51794332]Ey, I love Britain and what it's done for me. I'll definitely be back in the future after I've got a few years experience under my belt and transfer to an international company. That way I can work in the UK but still get the perks of "technically" working in the Middle East. I think of the UK as my home, not the ME. That being said, UK offers me the chance of student loan and no bursary, whereas my dad's country offers me a fully paid scholarship, bursary and a guaranteed job when I return. I gotta work a couple of years for my sponsors to "pay back" the scholarship, but it's not required. I can opt to work somewhere else and pay back my scholarship fees interest-free. Kuwait, fam. Better than the UK in certain aspects, for sure. Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, just to name a few. No tax, company house and car provided, good job prospects as a citizen of that country. Graduating with just a Master's in the UK with an Engineering degree, I'd be on somewhat shit pay despite the 4 years of blood, sweat and tears. With a Bachelor's in the ME, I'd be on much better pay with much better perks. Plus, my home country has this law enacted where every citizen has much higher chances of getting hired than - say - an expatriate. So nabbing a job there would be much easier compared to the UK, where competition would be fierce. That's not to say competition isn't fierce back home, but with the qualifications I'd have at the end of my degree, I'd be one of the better qualified candidates. You basically nailed it regarding the hiring prospects. That being said, I do see the UK as my country, I was raised here by my mum who's English through and through. But I'd have to be pretty short-sighted to work here straight out of uni. I'd benefit more going back to my dad's country, working for a few years, and then working in the UK with an international company. So I could start off with babysteps over there, where I've got plenty of family in the Engineering industry, and then come work here. If I wasn't Arabic, I'd never even think about going to the ME to work. But since I've got family who I love and cousins I enjoy spending time with, it'd make my years back there not too awful.[/QUOTE] I gotta say that I got respect for that answer (my undergrad was in Global Business) and good luck with it for yourself and the global business community. Im sure you can help impact Kuwait in a positive way with your experience! I gotta say your post will probably put some people into a loop. Already seen someone suggest a brain drain from Britain despite the obvious argument that the brain drain starts from the country of origin typically.

This is a classic example of implicit bias. People can hold no ill will towards a minority group, have no conscious thoughts of racism or ethnic bias, but still demonstrate discriminatory practices. It's not because people are awful racists who deserve to be punished, it's because the human brain is still stuck on the Serengeti where having a little voice saying 'hey he's not part of your tribe he's not your friend' is an evolutionarily-beneficial survival trait. Some caveman part of your brain has the sole purpose of making lightning-fast, skin-deep assessments of other people, because hesitating and [i]not[/i] judging a book by its cover got your ancestors' cousins killed. It's not intentional, it's not something people deserve to get raked over coals for, but it's real and it's a problem. So it bugs me when people claim that racism is dead essentially because overt racism is unpopular, when there are still tons and tons of studies showing these kinds of implicit biases regarding a whole host of groups- everything from race to sex to height to accent. And at the risk of opening a can of worms with this statement, this is what people are talking about when they discuss privilege- stuff that gives you a leg up without you being aware of it, like not having to worry about a black-sounding name or Southern accent damaging your job prospects. I don't have a solution to this, because implicit bias operates on a level below where any conscious action can address it. Maybe companies could review resumes with the names removed, but logistically that sounds difficult and doesn't fix promotion. But it's a real issue that more people ought to be aware of.

It's like this in Sweden, not just muslim sounding names. It's to all names that is not european or just "strange". Maybe off-topic but it's similar if you want to hire an apartment from a property company then the first thing they will look at is your name because in that way they know if the place your interested is "available" to you. If you apply to an apartment where alot of none ethnic-swedes live then it should be no problem. I know this because i used to work at a apartment renting company.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;51794244]Name a Muslim country better than the UK?[/QUOTE] Israel, qatar, uae, saudi arabia...

[QUOTE=Amplar;51794542]Israel, qatar, uae, saudi arabia...[/QUOTE] Not sure if serious

[QUOTE=Amplar;51794542]Israel, qatar, uae, saudi arabia...[/QUOTE] :ok:

[QUOTE=catbarf;51794486]This is a classic example of implicit bias. People can hold no ill will towards a minority group, have no conscious thoughts of racism or ethnic bias, but still demonstrate discriminatory practices. It's not because people are awful racists who deserve to be punished, it's because the human brain is still stuck on the Serengeti where having a little voice saying 'hey he's not part of your tribe he's not your friend' is an evolutionarily-beneficial survival trait. Some caveman part of your brain has the sole purpose of making lightning-fast, skin-deep assessments of other people, because hesitating and [i]not[/i] judging a book by its cover got your ancestors' cousins killed. It's not intentional, it's not something people deserve to get raked over coals for, but it's real and it's a problem. So it bugs me when people claim that racism is dead essentially because overt racism is unpopular, when there are still tons and tons of studies showing these kinds of implicit biases regarding a whole host of groups- everything from race to sex to height to accent. And at the risk of opening a can of worms with this statement, this is what people are talking about when they discuss privilege- stuff that gives you a leg up without you being aware of it, like not having to worry about a black-sounding name or Southern accent damaging your job prospects. I don't have a solution to this, because implicit bias operates on a level below where any conscious action can address it. Maybe companies could review resumes with the names removed, but logistically that sounds difficult and doesn't fix promotion. But it's a real issue that more people ought to be aware of.[/QUOTE] Wonderfully said. Under this complex facade, at the end of the day, we're still just a bunch of upright apes.

If you want to work, they accept everyone in Saudi Arabia ..if you want to be a slave, that is.

[QUOTE=Amplar;51794542]Israel, qatar, uae, saudi arabia...[/QUOTE] Israel isn't a muslim country. Qatar is a glorified US army base so it doesn't count. UAE is a corrupt shithole and it's okay only if you're a rich male otherwise enjoy slavery and being treated like a second class citizen. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic shithole that funds international terrorism and is also still only great so long as you're male and not poor. Try again. There's Muslim majority countries that are good places, you didn't have to scrap the shit barrel..

[QUOTE=Fourier;51794625]If you want to work, they accept everyone in Saudi Arabia ..if you want to be a slave, that is.[/QUOTE] Except Homosexuals, they just go away.

[QUOTE=Fourier;51794625]If you want to work, they accept everyone in Saudi Arabia ..if you want to be a slave, that is.[/QUOTE] We're discussing discrimination in the UK though. Did you misread the op? [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=catbarf;51794486]This is a classic example of implicit bias. People can hold no ill will towards a minority group, have no conscious thoughts of racism or ethnic bias, but still demonstrate discriminatory practices. It's not because people are awful racists who deserve to be punished, it's because the human brain is still stuck on the Serengeti where having a little voice saying 'hey he's not part of your tribe he's not your friend' is an evolutionarily-beneficial survival trait. Some caveman part of your brain has the sole purpose of making lightning-fast, skin-deep assessments of other people, because hesitating and [i]not[/i] judging a book by its cover got your ancestors' cousins killed. It's not intentional, it's not something people deserve to get raked over coals for, but it's real and it's a problem. So it bugs me when people claim that racism is dead essentially because overt racism is unpopular, when there are still tons and tons of studies showing these kinds of implicit biases regarding a whole host of groups- everything from race to sex to height to accent. And at the risk of opening a can of worms with this statement, this is what people are talking about when they discuss privilege- stuff that gives you a leg up without you being aware of it, like not having to worry about a black-sounding name or Southern accent damaging your job prospects. I don't have a solution to this, because implicit bias operates on a level below where any conscious action can address it. Maybe companies could review resumes with the names removed, but logistically that sounds difficult and doesn't fix promotion. But it's a real issue that more people ought to be aware of.[/QUOTE] Excellent post imo I think perhaps we can fight that inclination by not going with our first thought and steeling ourselves against the irrational first impressions and prejudices.

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51794628]Israel isn't a muslim country. Qatar is a glorified US army base so it doesn't count. UAE is a corrupt shithole and it's okay only if you're a rich male otherwise enjoy slavery and being treated like a second class citizen. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic shithole that funds international terrorism and is also still only great so long as you're male and not poor. Try again. There's Muslim majority countries that are good places, you didn't have to scrap the shit barrel..[/QUOTE] Israel is good for muslims afaik, they even special Sharia courts just for muslims. Excuse my ignorance If I am wrong. [editline]8th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51794633]We're discussing discrimination in the UK though. Did you misread the op? [/QUOTE] Sorry, you are right. My take on UK: Wasn't UK like very good for immigrants not long ago? What happened? Fear-spreading politics got into play? Also UK is fucking themselves so hard and people seek scape-goat: IMMIGRUNTS

[QUOTE=loopoo;51794332]Ey, I love Britain and what it's done for me. I'll definitely be back in the future after I've got a few years experience under my belt and transfer to an international company. [/quote] Good to hear [quote] You basically nailed it regarding the hiring prospects. That being said, I do see the UK as my country, I was raised here by my mum who's English through and through. But I'd have to be pretty short-sighted to work here straight out of uni. I'd benefit more going back to my dad's country, working for a few years, and then working in the UK with an international company. So I could start off with babysteps over there, where I've got plenty of family in the Engineering industry, and then come work here. If I wasn't Arabic, I'd never even think about going to the ME to work. But since I've got family who I love and cousins I enjoy spending time with, it'd make my years back there not too awful.[/QUOTE] Can't blame you for wanting the best for yourself, a shame the UK can't/won't offer you those opportunities. I hope you do well from it and make the most out of what you have; and have the best possible experiences. When you do get back to UK with the experience to earn more, think of those taxes not as a burden, but as something you pay to keep our good system going. Hopefully someday racism will be beaten and perhaps your kids can stay in the UK and have the same opportunities as the other kids.

[QUOTE=Amplar;51794542]Israel, qatar, uae, saudi arabia...[/QUOTE] Agreed. The United States and Australia is definitely a better Muslim country than the UK though.

[QUOTE=Fourier;51794652] Sorry, you are right. My take on UK: Wasn't UK like very good for immigrants not long ago?[/quote] How long ago? One of the studies in op is from 2009 - before or after that? edit: and there was that "racist vans" thing a lil after that and before that, in the 80-90s we had skinheads like c18 and nf. [quote]What happened? Fear-spreading politics got into play?[/quote] That's probably part of it. I think 911/gulf war II changed the way people saw muslims and people from pakistan/india also - before it was stuff like calling people paki, saying they're dirty, bad drivers or untrustworthy - now its terrorists and a threat to national security. This is England is a good film to watch about this kind of racism I think. [quote]Also UK is fucking themselves so hard and people seek scape-goat: IMMIGRUNTS[/QUOTE] Also this NHS issues being blamed on people with different colour skin or europeans instead of being blamed on government cuts. Thing is most of the muslims/people with muslim names in the study were probably born in the UK.

[QUOTE=Bucketboy;51794511]It's like this in Sweden, not just muslim sounding names. It's to all names that is not european or just "strange". Maybe off-topic but it's similar if you want to hire an apartment from a property company then the first thing they will look at is your name because in that way they know if the place your interested is "available" to you. If you apply to an apartment where alot of none ethnic-swedes live then it should be no problem. I know this because i used to work at a apartment renting company.[/QUOTE] A Turkish friend anglicized his name exactly due to this. He's married to a Swede and has a baby girl, and he doesn't want his heritage to inconvenience them. Your job and housing prospects are legitimately pretty bad if you have a name that sounds Muslim in any way. [QUOTE=Fourier;51794652]My take on UK: Wasn't UK like very good for immigrants not long ago? What happened? Fear-spreading politics got into play? Also UK is fucking themselves so hard and people seek scape-goat: IMMIGRUNTS[/QUOTE] If you live in London or any neighboring cities, then yeah you'll likely be treated right. The farther you go from the bigger cities the more ethnically homogeneous it gets, though. Ironically enough the most anti-immigrant parts of the country have the least immigrants.