World's largest Muslim group denounces Islamist extremism - Polidicks

[quote]The group, which was founded in southeast Asia in 1926 and boasts tens of millions of followers, also accused un-named Middle Eastern governments of deliberately nurturing religious extremism by exploiting sectarian differences. "By 'weaponizing' sectarian differences, these governments have sought to exercise both soft and hard power, and exported their conflict to the entire world," the group announced. It was a thinly veiled denunciation of Saudi Arabia and Iran -- rival Sunni and Shia Muslim states -- and their support for groups battling each other in Syria and Yemen. The Nahdlatul Ulama announcement came after the group hosted an international, two-day meeting of moderate Islamic leaders in the Indonesian capital.[/quote] [url]http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/10/asia/indonesia-extremism/index.html[/url]

"But why won't the Muslims denounce the extremists! They're basically complicit!" Glad to see this. Helps tone down the rhetoric you see from those hardcore anti-Islam nuts. Of course, people will just dismiss it as "too little too late," or "PR," as usual whenever an organization doesn't fit their expectations.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;50292682]"But why won't the Muslims denounce the extremists! They're basically complicit!" Glad to see this. Helps tone down the rhetoric you see from those hardcore anti-Islam nuts. Of course, people will just dismiss it as "too little too late," or "PR," as usual whenever an organization doesn't fit their expectations.[/QUOTE] I mean, you have to admit this could have come sooner. It's a good thing, but it has been a long time coming.

[QUOTE=ImimI;50292751]I mean, you have to admit this could have come sooner. It's a good thing, but it has been a long time coming.[/QUOTE] It's been happening literally every single day from from countless Muslim individuals, religious leaders, and organizations, all of which are ignored in favor of the narrative that Muslims as a whole secretly support extremism. The fact that people feel that some kind of Council of Muslims needed to convene and denounce this on behalf of all Muslims is absurd to begin with, but what's more absurd is that even when groups such as this DO try to meet such impossiblr demands as that, it's written off as lip service. It will just be forgotten or ignored anyway. Nobody likes extremism except extremists, and only about .003% of Muslims are extremists according to the CIA. 99%+ of the victims of Islamic extremism are other Muslims. Just because Westerners haven't been listening doesn't mean that Muslims haven't been screaming to an end to this lunacy by the hundreds of millions on a daily basis.

[QUOTE=ImimI;50292751]I mean, you have to admit this could have come sooner. .[/QUOTE] Literally no pleasing some people...

condeming violent extremism doesnt mean shit when you still believe stoning for adultery is okay [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

-snip-

Are we supposed to congratulate them on this? Is the bar really that low? I guess our expectations really are that low for Muslims. Why should we hold them to the same standards as westerners? This is the soft bigotry of low expectations. Paternalism at its best.

Dae muslams?

[QUOTE=Kentz;50292828]condeming violent extremism doesnt mean shit when you still believe stoning for adultery is okay[/QUOTE] In the same way that all Christians believe the bible condones slavery, right? fucking really

I'd be interested in this groups views on women, gays, apostasy, and atheism. Are they denouncing what is radical to them, or what's radical to us?

[QUOTE=Kentz;50292828]condeming violent extremism doesnt mean shit when you still believe stoning for adultery is okay[/QUOTE] where is your source for 2 billion people thinking this?

[QUOTE=Kentz;50292828]condeming violent extremism doesnt mean shit when you still believe stoning for adultery is okay[/QUOTE] I do believe that stoning is part of the extremism that they are condemning here. This is a good thing that's happening.

[QUOTE=AK'z;50292867]where is your source for 2 billion people thinking this?[/QUOTE] [t]https://i.imgur.com/rmnZ4KL.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292785]Nobody likes extremism except extremists, and only about .003% of Muslims are extremists according to the CIA. 99%+ of the victims of Islamic extremism are other Muslims. Just because Westerners haven't been listening doesn't mean that Muslims haven't been screaming to an end to this lunacy by the hundreds of millions on a daily basis.[/QUOTE] How do you square the CIA number with these polls? [img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-1.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-2.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-3.png[/img] And why does it matter that the overwhelming number of Muslims killed by extremists are also Muslim? Are you trying to appeal to my tribal sensibilities, making it seem like I shouldn't care? I'm sorry but I'm not a bigot, I care about Muslims lives too, which is why I'm so critical of Islamic extremists.

Just waiting for the bigot brigade to march in to the thread and tell us why everyone is wrong and why ISIS militants are true muslims and the rest are just repressed casuals because they skim-read a few translated verses from the Qur'an cherrypicked by some shitty site

Muslims or any Islamic group such as the OP should not be compelled to apologize for or denounce extremism, though any gesture is welcomed. Every 9/11 the question always remains "Why aren't Muslims apologizing this year" The answer is, they don't have too.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50292880]How do you square the CIA number with these polls? [img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-1.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-2.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-3.png[/img] And why does it matter that the overwhelming number of Muslims killed by extremists are also Muslim? Are you trying to appeal to my tribal sensibilities, making it seem like I shouldn't care? I'm sorry but I'm not a bigot, I care about Muslims lives too, which is why I'm so critical of Islamic extremists.[/QUOTE] Sharia law is not extremism, nor are traditionalist views regarding women's roles in marriage. I don't subscribe to these philosophies, obviously, but you are making a false equivalency. There is a huge fucking line between being a traditionalist and picking up a gun and committing acts of terror. These figures you're citing have nothing to do with the CIA's census of extremism. Muslims practicing Sharia law and having misogynistic traditions aren't entirely different from the many more fundamental Christian denominations.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292912]Sharia law is not extremism, nor are traditionalist views regarding women's roles in marriage. I don't agree with those philosopiesy, obviously, but you are making a false equivalency. There is a huge fucking line between being a traditionalist and picking up a gun and committing acts of terror. These figures you're citing have nothing to do with the CIA's census of extremism, and aren't entirely different from the many more fundamental Christian denominations.[/QUOTE] Like I said in my last post then, I guess we really have set our bar that low for Muslims. And can you give me any polls like this showing what Christians think on these topics?

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50292926]Like I said in my last post then, I guess we really have set our bar that low for Muslims. And can you give me any polls like this showing what Christians think on these topics?[/QUOTE] How is distinguishing between violent extremists and nonviolent Muslims "setting the bar low?"

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292942]How is distinguishing between violent extremists and nonviolent Muslims "setting the bar low?"[/QUOTE] That's not what you said originally, you're changing the argument. You said: [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292785]Nobody likes extremism except extremists, and only about .003% of Muslims are extremists according to the CIA.[/QUOTE] Then I gave polls to try and show that the CIA figure is wrong and you said:[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292912]Sharia law is not extremism, nor are traditionalist views regarding women's roles in marriage.[/QUOTE] So the distinction between violent and non-violent extremism was never brought up, and nobody was arguing about that. Of course I see the value in distinguishing between the two. But please don't put words in my mouth.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292912]Sharia law is not extremism, nor are traditionalist views regarding women's roles in marriage. I don't agree with those philosopiesy, obviously, but you are making a false equivalency. There is a huge fucking line between being a traditionalist and picking up a gun and committing acts of terror. These figures you're citing have nothing to do with the CIA's census of extremism, and aren't entirely different from the many more fundamental Christian denominations.[/QUOTE] Not only this, [i]the group condemning violent Islamist extremism is a traditionalist group[/i]. People conflate traditionalist Islam with being "backwards," and while it sometimes is without a doubt, the extremists are not the stereotypical traditionalists - they're the revolutionaries and radicals. It's not as simple as some "good Islam" to "bad Islam" spectrum - there are a lot of areas where things differ. Traditionalism is hardly the issue - traditional Islam groups like NU promote religious pluralism and more westernized views of what we'd consider "progressive." The extremists and Islamists are revolutionary conservatives and literalists. They're literally breaking away from the traditional views of Islam, which tend to promote some level of religious pluralism (as seen in the [i]actual text of Sharia law[/i]. The fucking Umayyad Caliphate forever ago let other religious groups handle their own religious law on their own time - they didn't concern themselves with Christians and Jews and other religious groups under their rule because that's what Islam has been about for centuries. Muslims thought the Umayyad Caliphate was [i]unjust for taxing other religious groups[/i]. The modern conception of "convert or die" is 100% radical anti-traditional extremism - most Islam rule over the centuries has been pluralistic, allowing other religions to coexist in peace with an Islamic government. That is conservative Islam. The Islamic State murdering non-Muslims for not being Muslim is the opposite of conserving traditional Islamic values, it's ruining them and shoving Islam down other peoples' throats. It's not the norm.

The Germans must appreciate their cultural enrichment.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50292880]How do you square the CIA number with these polls? [img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-1.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-1.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-2.png[/img][img]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-chp4-3.png[/img] And why does it matter that the overwhelming number of Muslims killed by extremists are also Muslim? Are you trying to appeal to my tribal sensibilities, making it seem like I shouldn't care? I'm sorry but I'm not a bigot, I care about Muslims lives too, which is why I'm so critical of Islamic extremists.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Lapin_b0t;50292879][t]https://i.imgur.com/rmnZ4KL.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] Pew poll is bullshit, please stop posting it. [QUOTE]2% of Afghanis use internet yet over 84% of them say they use social media sites. Okay. 30% of Indonesians said they didn't consider Sunnis to be Muslim despite over 99% of Indonesian Muslims being Sunni. 45% of respondents in Pakistan, 51% in Bangladesh, 55% in Indonesia (but just 6% in Afghanistan, 9% in Egypt, 11% in Iraq, 16% in Jordan, and 3% in Lebanon) said that "reciting poetry or singing in praise of God" is unacceptable under Islam. Which is simply ridiculous. Over 40% of Albanians did not believe in Heaven or Hell. A similar amount of both Albanians and Bosnians did not believe in angels. Which seems to run contrary to the other results regarding religiosity (since most African respondents prayed and had the highest mosque attendance out of anyone). 22% of Bengalis did not believe in predestination or the divine decree (kismat/qadar), a core article of faith in both Sunni and Shi'ite Islam. Nearly a quarter to a third of Arab respondents did not believe in the existence of djinns, although this too is a core article of faith in both Sunni and Shi'ite Islam (the devil is a djinn... one would expect that most of these respondents believed in the existence of the devil which would indicate they were not aware of a basic tenet of Islamic theology lifted straight from the literal verses of the Qur'an). 45% of Indonesians also did not believe in djinn (this reached majorities in Central Asia and Europe, except for Turkey). 72% of Albanians did believe in the Shahadah (that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad (saw) is His Messenger). This is the equivalent of a Christian saying that Jesus wasn't the son of God. Which is strange considering 95% of Albanians said they were raised as Muslim. If you looked beyond the parts of the poll that supported your world views you would see how flawed it is.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50292958]That's not what you said originally, you're changing the argument. You said: Then I gave polls to try and show that the CIA figure is wrong and you said: So the distinction between violent and non-violent extremism was never brought up, and nobody was arguing about that. Of course I see the value in distinguishing between the two. But please don't put words in my mouth.[/QUOTE] Believing in Sharia and traditional family structures [i]is not extremism[/i]. We can disagree, and I do disagree with those beliefs, but saying that "women should have to wear a veil" is not "we need to murder apostates and convert people at gunpoint while raping their families."

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50292958]That's not what you said originally, you're changing the argument. You said: Then I gave polls to try and show that the CIA figure is wrong and you said: So the distinction between violent and non-violent extremism was never brought up, and nobody was arguing about that. Of course I see the value in distinguishing between the two. please don't put words in my mouth.[/QUOTE] So what exactly [I]are[/I] you trying to say then? That you don't support religious fundamentalism? Great, neither do I. However, your argument against the CIA's census on [I]violent extremism[/I] was to post poll figures showing support for Sharia law, which is [I]not[/I] the same thing as support for violent extremism. I am not putting words in your mouth, I'm clarifying why you were wrong to use those figures, and questioning why you feel I am "setting the bar low" in correcting you on that point.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;50292970]Believing in Sharia and traditional family structures [I]is not extremism[/I]. We can disagree, and I do disagree with those beliefs, [B]but saying that "women should have to wear a veil" is not "we need to murder apostates and convert people at gunpoint while raping their families."[/B][/QUOTE] We can agree to disagree with the first part of your post I guess. All I know is that if there was a single country on Earth that had imposed "Christian Sharia" you would see progressives flipping shit all over the place. As for the bolded part, again, the argument is being changed. Please point out where I said this. [editline]10th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292979]So what exactly [I]are[/I] you trying to say then? That you don't support religious fundamentalism? Great, neither do I. However, your argument against the CIA's census on [I]violent extremism[/I] was to post poll figures showing support for Sharia law, which is [I]not[/I] the same thing as support for violent extremism. I am not putting words in your mouth, I'm clarifying why you were wrong to use those figures, and questioning why you feel I am "setting the bar low" in correcting you on that point.[/QUOTE] You never stated that the CIA poll was about violent extremism. Let me requote your post one more time: [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50292785]Nobody likes extremism except extremists, and only about .003% of Muslims are extremists according to the CIA.[/QUOTE] Thank you for clarifying though, that makes more sense now. The original article was about generic extremism, whether violent or non violent. Thats why I used those polls. And I guess we can also agree to disagree that the numbers in the Pew polls aren't "extreme".

[QUOTE=.Isak.;50292682]"But why won't the Muslims denounce the extremists! They're basically complicit!" Glad to see this. Helps tone down the rhetoric you see from those hardcore anti-Islam nuts. Of course, people will just dismiss it as "too little too late," or "PR," as usual whenever an organization doesn't fit their expectations.[/QUOTE] How is being anti-Islam "nuts"? You may not have called it nuts but you've implied that those who hold that belief are. "Why are you opposed to a dogmatic ideology, you fucking lunatic?". There are loads of legitimate rational reasons to be oppoosed to Islam, it's just that movements such as EDL/BNP/Britain First remove any credibility, so there's an ignorant disregard for that perspective (usually, you'll get called a "racist" even though religion isn't race, it's an ideology). There's literally nothing wrong with being against Islam, you just have to understand that being against Islam isn't being against muslims, and that religious discrimination is still wrong regardless of personal beliefs.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50292980]We can agree to disagree with the first part of your post I guess. All I know is that if there was a single country on Earth that had imposed "Christian Sharia" you would see progressives flipping shit all over the place. As for the bolded part, again, the argument is being changed. Please point out where I said this. [editline]10th May 2016[/editline] You never stated that the CIA poll was about violent extremism. Let me requote your post one more time: Thank you for clarifying though, that makes more sense now. The original article was about generic extremism, whether violent or non violent. Thats why I used those polls. And I guess we can also agree to disagree that the numbers in the Pew polls aren't "extreme".[/QUOTE] Sorry for the miscommunication, then. I thought that "religious extremists" were understood to be religious groups that use violence in pursuit of religious goals.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50293019]Sorry for the miscommunication, then. I thought that "religious extremists" were understood to be religious groups that use violence in pursuit of religious goals.[/QUOTE] Would you not consider the Westboro Baptist Church to be extremists?