Ukraine and rebels accuse each other of attacking refugee bus convoy
37 replies, posted
[IMG]http://s3.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20140818&t=2&i=964935551&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=700&pl=378&r=LYNXMPEA7H0HN[/IMG]
[QUOTE]Ukraine accused pro-Russian rebels on Monday of hitting a refugee convoy of buses with rocket fire near the eastern city of Luhansk, killing people trapped in the burning vehicles, but the separatists denied responsibility.
Government forces kept up pressure on the separatists in fighting overnight into Monday, blockading or recapturing rebel-held positions after international talks failed to reach agreement on a ceasefire.
Ukrainian military spokesmen said rebel missile fire on the buses had caused an unknown number of casualties.
"A powerful artillery strike hit a refugee convoy near the area of Khryashchuvatye and Novosvitlivka. The force of the blow on the convoy was so strong that people were burned alive in the vehicles - they weren't able to get themselves out," military spokesman Anatoly Proshin told Ukrainian news channel 112.ua.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/18/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GI0YK20140818"]Source[/URL]
Its always the normal civilians that bear the brunt of these tragedies.
I might've supported them when they wanted independence, but not when they are going to kill civilians.
[QUOTE=Megadave;45726266]I might've supported them when they wanted independence, but not when they are going to kill civilians.[/QUOTE]
Jumping to conclusions much?
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;45726420]Well DPR has the death penalty so they do kill civilians. This time? We will never know.[/QUOTE]
death penalty just only got announced by DPR, soo i don't think they already scored a civil toll.
[url]http://en.ria.ru/world/20140818/192116163/Death-Penalty-Introduced-in-Donetsk-Peoples-Republic.html[/url]
[quote]DONETSK, August 18 (RIA Novosti) – The death penalty was introduced in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) for the gravest crimes, the republic’s press center reported.
The first meeting of the Presidium of the DPR Council of Ministers was held on August 17. During this meeting, the Regulation on Military Courts and the Criminal Code of the DPR were approved.
The regulatory framework of the Russian Federation was taken as a basis of the Criminal Code of the republic, according to the press center.
"A legislative act provides for the death penalty for the gravest crimes," the republic’s statement said.
It is also noted that the system of military courts is to have two tiers. The lower tier includes courts-martial, which deal with crimes committed by military personnel of rank no higher than squadron commander. The top tier includes military tribunals that deal with offenses made by battalion commanders and those of higher rank. The DPR leadership believes that such a provision "would greatly facilitate the fight against looting and banditry" among its servicemen.
As DPR Foreign Minister Alexander Karaman said, once the war is over, the DPR will step "on the path of humanization of the criminal law."[/quote]
How things play out now, yes that is a question.
This situation in a nutshell:
[img]http://www.traciwithani.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/he-did-it.jpg-580x290.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;45727458]This situation in a nutshell:
[img]http://www.traciwithani.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/he-did-it.jpg-580x290.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
The one on the left looks downright shady.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45726461]death penalty just only got announced by DPR, soo i don't think they already scored a civil toll.
[url]http://en.ria.ru/world/20140818/192116163/Death-Penalty-Introduced-in-Donetsk-Peoples-Republic.html[/url]
How things play out now, yes that is a question.[/QUOTE]
"gravest crimes" sounds rather open ended, especially for such a barbaric punishment.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45727700]"gravest crimes" sounds rather open ended, especially for such a barbaric punishment.[/QUOTE]
Vice [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBsEkF_GY0E"]published a video[/URL] where they dug up a mass grave in a formerly rebel held city. Testimony from the people living there under the DPR and from close family suggested it can be for something as minor as petty theft, or the other way around when the rebels want to take something.
I don't particularly believe in the "death warrants" shown in the latter half, but it's pretty telling to how flippant the eastern rebels are in regard to civilian life, and I don't think for one second that the rebels don't have blood on their hands. (cough[I]malaysianairlines[/I]cough)
Somehow I find it hard to believe that the Ukrainian army did it, when looking at the long list of crimes the rebels have committed.
[QUOTE=Stopper;45728030]Somehow I find it hard to believe that the Ukrainian army did it, when looking at the long list of crimes the rebels have committed.[/QUOTE]
And Ukranian Army never did anything wrong, right?
Some Higly [B]NSFW [/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5D3GMhgzvQ[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRBq-w8qPE8[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfv9pdPmNDA[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIjuRFkrets[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7TGxaG-gkM[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lBNadXxp04[/url]
Seriously, you people sometimes soo busy blaming one side that you forget to look after another.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729500]And Ukranian Army never did anything wrong, right?
Some Higly [B]NSFW [/B]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5D3GMhgzvQ[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRBq-w8qPE8[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfv9pdPmNDA[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIjuRFkrets[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7TGxaG-gkM[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lBNadXxp04[/url]
Seriously, you people sometimes soo busy blaming one side that you forget to look after another.[/QUOTE]
Here we go again...
why isn't karimatrix permabanned yet
[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;45729671]why isn't karimatrix permabanned yet[/QUOTE]
Because unlike some other users i always stay on topic while two posts above do nothing but aknowledge my post. Seriously, if it pisses you off to read my statement then just add me to your ignore list and go on with your life.
I merely shared couple of vids to remind that Ukranian army as incompetent as rebels soo it's 50/50 regarding convoy.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729500]And Ukranian Army never did anything wrong, right?
Some Higly [B]NSFW [/B]
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5D3GMhgzvQ[/URL]
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRBq-w8qPE8[/URL]
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfv9pdPmNDA[/URL]
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIjuRFkrets[/URL]
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7TGxaG-gkM[/URL]
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lBNadXxp04[/URL]
Seriously, you people sometimes soo busy blaming one side that you forget to look after another.[/QUOTE]
What, you mean when they attacked the rebels which unlawfully separated from and waged war against Ukraine, committed various war-crimes and shot down a passenger air-liner?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729699]Because unlike some other users i always stay on topic while two posts above do nothing but aknowledge my post. Seriously, if it pisses you off to read my statement then just add me to your ignore list and go on with your life.
I merely shared couple of vids to remind that Ukranian army as incompetent as rebels soo it's 50/50 regarding convoy.[/QUOTE]
nobody's saying that the ukrainian army is innocent, its just the other guys have done a lot worse stuff at this point like the mass graves found in the liberated cities
[QUOTE=Stopper;45729714]What, you mean when they attacked the rebels which unlawfully separated from and waged war against Ukraine, committed various war-crimes and shot down a passenger air-liner?[/QUOTE]
Don't bring up the airplane thing again, there is no official closure on incident and no matter how much it hurts soo far rebels are only being accused, not proven to shoot down plane.
As for warcrimes, you mentioned them already twice regarding rebels and somehow ignore videos i posted that work as example of Ukraine's Army shitty actions.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45726277]Jumping to conclusions much?[/QUOTE]
everyone else seems to be, might as well join the club.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729753]Don't bring up the airplane thing again, there is no official closure on incident and no matter how much it hurts soo far rebels are only being accused, not proven to shoot down plane.
As for warcrimes, you mentioned them already twice regarding rebels and somehow ignore videos i posted that work as example of Ukraine's Army shitty actions.[/QUOTE]
All the videos are quite literally "Shooting in Donetsk, victims and damaged reported".
Yeah, that's usually what happens when there's a war going on. Unless you have some compelling proof that the Ukrainian army is targeting civilians?
[QUOTE=Stopper;45729800]All the videos are quite literally "Shooting in Donetsk, victims and damaged reported".
Yeah, that's usually what happens when there's a war going on. Unless you have some compelling proof that the Ukrainian army is targeting civilians?[/QUOTE]
First of all, we are not talking here about targeting civilians. I did not say rebels target civilians nor i said Ukranian army does. I brought up those vids as example of really bad coordination of Ukranian Army forces wich results in heavy civil casualities since they pretty much bomb everything they can as if they are paranoic. This is due to lack of precise targeting and bad recon, and just general irresponsible behavior and incompetence. wich i brought up as example of why it is very damn possible that it could be Ukranian Army who by acciident took down that convoy. If you suddenly see Ukranian soldiers as super displined, strick and cautios fellas, you are wrong.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729753]Don't bring up the airplane thing again, there is no official closure on incident and no matter how much it hurts soo far rebels are only being accused, not proven to shoot down plane.[/QUOTE]
Helluva lotta indications that the rebels are guilty, though, such as the rebels boasting about their shiny new AA system on Twitter and bragging about having taken down another plane, only to immediately delete those tweets when it turned out to have been the civilian airliner.
Just saying, regarding MH17 there's more evidence against the rebels than against Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Kahgarak;45729876]Helluva lotta indications that the rebels are guilty, though, such as the rebels boasting about their shiny new AA system on Twitter and bragging about having taken down another plane, only to immediately delete those tweets when it turned out to have been the civilian airliner.
Just saying, regarding MH17 there's more evidence against the rebels than against Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
I am not even going to argue about this. Like i said, accusations, you can remind of those tweets, but like you said, those are mere indications, not a solid proof, and therefore untill we get official statement, they can join the accusation and hysteria bandwagon. Then again, to not offend anyone, this is just my personal opinion - wait till official statement goes, accept it even if i don't like it.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729874]First of all, we are not talking here about targeting civilians. I did not say rebels target civilians nor i said Ukranian army does. I brought up those vids as example of really bad coordination of Ukranian Army forces wich results in heavy civil casualities since they pretty much bomb everything they can as if they are paranoic. This is due to lack of precise targeting and bad recon, and just general irresponsible behavior and incompetence. wich i brought up as example of why it is very damn possible that it could be Ukranian Army who by acciident took down that convoy. If you suddenly see Ukranian soldiers as super displined, strick and cautios fellas, you are wrong.[/QUOTE]
Then what exactly is your point? War happened, people died. The Ukrainian army is acting on behalf of the Ukrainian government in defending the land of the sovereign state of Ukraine, which is the entire point of having a military force. If your only argument is that "Ukraine did it because stray bullets hit civilians at some point", then I don't have much more to say to you.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729919]I am not even going to argue about this. Like i said, accusations, you can remind of those tweets, but like you said, those are mere indications, not a solid proof, and therefore untill we get official statement, they can join the accusation and hysteria bandwagon. Then again, to not offend anyone, this is just my personal opinion - wait till official statement goes, accept it even if i don't like it.[/QUOTE]
Why, then, would the rebels delete those tweets when the plane turned out to be civilian? What other reason would they have other than "oh shit we fucked up, better cover our tracks"?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729919]I am not even going to argue about this. Like i said, accusations, you can remind of those tweets, but like you said, those are mere indications, not a solid proof, and therefore untill we get official statement, they can join the accusation and hysteria bandwagon. Then again, to not offend anyone, this is just my personal opinion - wait till official statement goes, accept it even if i don't like it.[/QUOTE]
The official statement? Do you expect the guilty party to come forth and announce they killed almost 300 people in what is the deadliest airliner shootdown in human history?
[QUOTE=Stopper;45729922]Then what exactly is your point? War happened, people died. The Ukrainian army is acting on behalf of the Ukrainian government in defending the land of the sovereign state of Ukraine, which is the entire point of having a military force. If your only argument is that "Ukraine did it because stray bullets hit civilians at some point", then I don't have much more to say to you.[/QUOTE]
The whole point was that i posted videos that show that Ukrainian army is as incompetent as rebels and therefore they could been the ones who took down Convoy aswell, that's it. There was no argument after that, just you suddenly going "Let's start a discussion of how bad rebels on a wide scale."
[QUOTE=Kahgarak;45729938]Why, then, would the rebels delete those tweets when the plane turned out to be civilian? What other reason would they have other than "oh shit we fucked up, better cover our tracks"?[/QUOTE]
Told ya, i am not going to argue here.
[QUOTE=Stopper;45729945]The official statement? Do you expect the guilty party to come forth and announce they killed almost 300 people in what is the deadliest airliner shootdown in human history?[/QUOTE]
I am talking about official statement of commision attached to case, you know, guys who were busy last month collecting evidence and decoding black boxes. Jeez.
OP is about factions pointing fingers, i posted evidence that not only one party is to be considered irresponsible in their actions, people come in and start talking about a plane again as if it suddenly adds up to precision of ukranian army.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729971]Told ya, i am not going to argue here.
I am talking about official statement of commision attached to case, you know, guys who were busy last month collecting evidence and decoding black boxes. Jeez.[/QUOTE]
The same black boxes which were reluctantly returned to them by the rebels who planted mines around the crash site?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729958]The whole point was that i posted videos that show that Ukrainian army is as incompetent as rebels and therefore they could been the ones who took down Convoy aswell, that's it. There was no argument after that, just you suddenly going "Let's start a discussion of how bad rebels on a wide scale."[/QUOTE]
Your videos show absolutely nothing other than the fact that a battlefield looks like a battlefield. Even if we make the assumption that the Ukrainian army is inept, I don't see how that makes them any more likely to have attacked a convoy which they were aware is composed of Ukrainian citizens. The rebels on the other hand have shown blatant disregard for human life, Ukrainian life even more so, making them a much more likely culprit. What is your point again?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;45729971]Told ya, i am not going to argue here.[/QUOTE]
Because you refuse to admit that between Ukraine and the rebels, the latter are most likely to have been guilty. Sure, in the end it's "an indication" but I'd say the rebels' backpedalling through deleting the tweets are a pretty damn [I]huge[/I] implication that they were behind it.
It's more solid evidence of their guilt than any I've seen against Ukraine, so far, concerning MH17.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.